Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

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cyclotaur
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby cyclotaur » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:08 pm

I'm still checking the tracker from time to time, though not with the same feelings as two days ago.

Kim Raemaeykers and Adam Hunter both took/taking alternate routes to Canberra to avoid the Monaro Hwy, I see.
Shell heading through Omeo.
J-W Bobbink seems holed up in Melbourne.
Crutchy has made it into Melbourne.
MichaelJ heading up Great Ocean Rd towards Lorne.
Rhino also moving on GOR towards Lorne.
...several others seem stopped or paused back beyond that.
Christie Hamilton plugging along towards Port Augusta, seems to be the back marker of those moving at the moment.

I really hope these riders go as far as they can/want to satisfy themselves and achieve what they set out to do. I think everyone will make their own decisions and whatever they decide is right for them. Good on 'em all.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby andrewjcw » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:17 pm

If it could have been any one of us that was hit and killed, for the 99% of us that regularly drive cars it could have been one of us that hit him as well. A branch/rock can fall onto the road, wildlife, mechanical failure or medical episode can easily result in a fatality on the road.

Hate to break it to you, but 3-4 people a day die in Australia on roads. That's just the world we live in. Some are preventable, but a lot aren't. Assigning blame to the driver automatically without knowing any details is immensely stupid and short sighted. I'm not saying culture and legislation in Australia is okay or that it can't be changed, but for the discussion to be fruitful it must be done in a productive and intelligent manner.

On the topic of riders continuing, Maven's latest video made a good point I thought. Continuing on (in some cases) would just be putting the spouses/family/friends of the competitors through a living hell for the next week or so. Obviously not everyone is affected the same way, but I can certainly understand Mark's decision.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:26 pm

Regrettably there have been two collisions with cars in this race. With 70 starters that's 1 per 35. Prorata the distances of those who dropped out and your probably looking at 1 in 25

As reported on Sydney Cyclist there was a similar death in NZ http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/90444751/Cyclist-killed-near-Twizel-companion-in-stable-condition
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Arbuckle23 » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:37 pm

To add, there was a death on a great Victorian Bike Ride a couple of years back, truck versus cyclist if memory serves. So it doesn't need to be a competitive event to suffer a fatality.

I also was a compulsive dot watcher and had great interest in watching the race. I hope they go again next year as it is a fascinating event. It is very sad the this has happened, but let the Police investigate and lay any charges if they think it is appropriate. For all we know there may end up being none.
Unfortunately I can't get to the Melbourne ride in the morning as I will be on a plane, but I will be there in spirit.

Edited to correct spelling :)
Last edited by Arbuckle23 on Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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baabaa
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby baabaa » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:04 pm

I dunno but still pretty sad about all this. Mike was a bit of a hero to me from the early Tour Divide days, I went from a 60 ks a day commute which I started to hate, into gaining some real bikepacking gear and just getting out of town and off the tar. I found out how to enjoy the bike again as it was no longer an A to B tool for slogging it out in peak hour traffic.

So Mike’s vid from a few years back? Yes I get all that, but it is pretty rude to post that up at this time but if you want to look like and then be a smart arse, well I guess people can do that but it hardly helps.
His riding and these few real ultra people are just so much different to normal riders in a way that competitive free-diving is to an open ocean swimmer. I had an around-the-world bike tourer (another British fella from the same parts as Mike) who was maybe 8/10ths of the way through his trip stay with me for four days about a month back. Gave him a good bed and fed him up so much he didn’t want to leave. My question to him was how did he find Australian drivers? His answer was simple, as good as they get and he even thought better than the some Europeans, and way better than Central Asia. No issues on the open road and trucks did a good job of giving him space....until, and after his visit here, he hit Melbourne which he said, even without the speed of the highway, the driving just became rubbish like any big city. I have used that bit of road near that spot by bike loaded and unloaded for plenty of years and guess will do so again, the road is way better but much busier now, but so is the housing south of Canberra.

Anyhow, my thoughts on this type of ride is we need it here, and we need more people like Mike to come so it would be good to see it come back in some form. The Audax ride across Australia is a different beast but, if it was to come back maybe running it like the Tour Divide with a option of starting the clock in the East to go West and as well as West to East as it may help increase the numbers as riding out of the big cities is much easier to do with a few days in the saddle as opposed to several if not weeks. The ride is really just the same. The biking always just gets better once you hit the open roads. Oh, and would be good to slip in Mikes name on the ride somehow, because…. what a guy, and what a biker. Mike really helped build bike packing around the world as a thing and his story alone should help get more people riding than stopping to ride.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:44 pm

I know nothing of the cause of this unfortunate incident but I cant help think that its related to how fatigued Mike was.

I am beginning to think that in an extreme event such as this, maybe the organizers should place a limit on the number of hours a rider can complete in a day, especially on an event with open roads.

Long haul truck drivers are restricted in the number hours in a day that they can drive why should it be different to any other road user?
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby robbo mcs » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:32 am

singlespeedscott wrote:I know nothing of the cause of this unfortunate incident but I cant help think that its related to how fatigued Mike was.
?


Until the investigation is completed we will not know, and even then we may never know. It is worrying some of the comments he made in the days leading up to the accident, and I am sure the investigators will look at that.

One thing I know for certain is that if one of the IPWR riders had been hit by a truck, and it came out that the truck driver had been driving for 13 days in a row with only 2 hours sleep per night, then everyone would be looking at this very differently. Everyone would have been outraged, regardless of the evidence, pointing the finger at the wreckless truckie. The fact that the rider was severely sleep deprived, and probably not functioning mentally at the optimum level is something that has to be thought about in the wash up. I am not suggesting Mike was at fault, probably not. However, I am sure the coroner will have comments to make on this issue, and also hopefully some constructive suggestions to improve road safety for us all

Regardless, the whole incident is a senseless tragedy

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby CKinnard » Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:47 am

There's a lot of serious points that Mike's death raises, that all would be wise to confront objectively.
i.e. His recorded comments of the preceding days are very likely to adversely effect the payout on any life insurance policy he had. The terms of this race would be an actuary's nightmare.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby g-boaf » Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:54 am

CKinnard wrote:There's a lot of serious points that Mike's death raises, that all would be wise to confront objectively.
i.e. His recorded comments of the preceding days are very likely to adversely effect the payout on any life insurance policy he had. The terms of this race would be an actuary's nightmare.


Those comments are the worrying thing, but we don't know if perhaps someone had passed him and did a full lane change, would it have made a difference? Maybe the incident wouldn't have happened?

Will authorities simply step in and forbid this kind of race in the future? I could potentially see that happening too if it is determined that extreme fatigue was a factor. That won't address the age old problem of people overtaking too closely.

singlespeedscott wrote:I am beginning to think that in an extreme event such as this, maybe the organizers should place a limit on the number of hours a rider can complete in a day, especially on an event with open roads.


Potentially this could be enforced as part of the approvals for the event.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby CKinnard » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:17 am

I think Mike's death has compelled the "State" to get involved...and I think the outcome will be that IPWR is banned. And I say that as a non supporter of the Nanny State. Whatever individuals perceived the risk of the IPWR before it started, they are unlikely to have the same view today. And this is undoubtedly going to adversely impact entry numbers if future races occur. And yes I say all this on the basis no one knows who carried what % of fault for the accident. The point is the media are all over interviews with racers talking of profound fatigue levels, riding off the road while falling asleep or losing concentration. It is very difficult to justify being on a public road in that condition.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby RonK » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:50 am

singlespeedscott wrote:I know nothing of the cause of this unfortunate incident but I cant help think that its related to how fatigued Mike was.

I am beginning to think that in an extreme event such as this, maybe the organizers should place a limit on the number of hours a rider can complete in a day, especially on an event with open roads.

Long haul truck drivers are restricted in the number hours in a day that they can drive why should it be different to any other road user?

Some event organisers already recognise there are risks and restrict cycling hours.

In New Zealand for example, Tour Aotearoa rules require riders to spend one block of six hours per day not travelling. The Kiwi Brevet and Great Southern Brevet also have similar restrictions.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby g-boaf » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:23 am

CKinnard wrote:I think Mike's death has compelled the "State" to get involved...and I think the outcome will be that IPWR is banned. And I say that as a non supporter of the Nanny State. Whatever individuals perceived the risk of the IPWR before it started, they are unlikely to have the same view today. And this is undoubtedly going to adversely impact entry numbers if future races occur. And yes I say all this on the basis no one knows who carried what % of fault for the accident. The point is the media are all over interviews with racers talking of profound fatigue levels, riding off the road while falling asleep or losing concentration. It is very difficult to justify being on a public road in that condition.

That's the easy way out. Limiting the number of hours ridden would be one way, and then making sure, for all of us, that motorists pass us with a FULL lane change. However, I think you are right. I have a very strong suspicion that it will be banned.

What Ron suggests above is a good way of preventing fatigue related accidents.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby human909 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:43 am

CKinnard wrote:It is very difficult to justify being on a public road in that condition.

I agree. It is lunacy to hold an multi day event in uncontrolled conditions that encourages sleep deprivation. It is a recipe for an accident.

That said whether the rider was sleep deprived or not is irrelevant to where the blame and the civil and criminal liability for the collision lies. This needs to be determined independently of the condition of the rider. Unfortunately like in many collisions with cyclists there is only one left stand to tell the story, and in this case it is likely easier for the driver to spin a false story.


andrewjcw wrote:Assigning blame to the driver automatically without knowing any details is immensely stupid and short sighted.

This attitude is often expressed by authorities and the public alike. Yet other countries operate just fine with such an approach. If a person is shot and killed by somebody do we take an equally blind attitude? No we put the onus on the person operating the deadly device to demonstrate that they acted in a responsible manner.

The simple fact is that is that a driver passing a cyclist closely at high speed is like aiming and firing a gun next to somebody. This analogy is not hyperbole. Aiming and firing a gun safe distance away from people is a safe action. Aiming and firing a gun extremely close to them is not.

We have a problem on our roads and our governments are now explicitly ignoring it or not enforcing it. People are getting killed as a result.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:38 am

I'm assuming the incident was in NSW and not ACT, I'm not sure of the exact location. In NSW there's a 1.5 metre passing law 70k or over. So for Mike to be at fault he would of had to suddenly move more than 1.5 metres to the right and as it was on a straight flat piece of road the only thing that could of caused that movement would of been a mechanical, hitting a pot hole and falling off or falling asleep (or the like). I think its highly unlikely that Mike caused his own passing but we need to wait for the findings.

Racing on open roads in NSW requires a whole host of conditions to be met such as police permission, traffic controllers on intersections etc etc. I'm curious as to what permission they had from each state/territory they had.

And I'm with the stating a rule on stop time, I'd actually go for 9 hours to limit the amount of riding in the dark, something like this. You must stop for a 9 hour block at night and depart no earlier than 6am local time
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby biker jk » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:26 am

A few photos from the memorial ride for Mike Hall in Sydney. It was a large turnout and a very emotional experience at the Opera House with Kristof laying flowers and other Indy-Pac riders such as Sarah Hammond present.

Image

Image

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Warin » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:02 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I'm assuming the incident was in NSW and not ACT, I'm not sure of the exact location


From the press reports and photos .. just inside the ACT, near Angle Crossing road?
So ACT rules. And the ACT passing distances are the same as the NSW ones.

However I think it better to wait for the investigations to be completed and a report made public, rather than make assumptions, possibly giving a false impression of the situation. Can the examinations based on assumptions cease .. at least untill a factual report is made (and I don't trust press reports at all)?

Truck driver rest requirements can be found here https://www.nhvr.gov.au/safety-accredit ... dard-hours

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby human909 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:22 pm

Warin wrote:Can the examinations based on assumptions cease .. at least untill a factual report is made (and I don't trust press reports at all)?


You make it sound like these are done by appropriately competent people concerned about finding out the truth and then such reports being released to the public. The reality is often starkly different. Especially when it comes to the deaths of cyclists.

(Sorry for my cynicism. The bitterness isn't directed towards your comments.)

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/deter ... 1z438.html
"James Cross's parents are dismayed that the car driver responsible for their son's death was never formally interviewed by police and never apologised."

"Dr Cross said had he and his wife not pushed for a coronial inquest, their son's death would have been recorded that he crashed into traffic after he “came from nowhere”

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby P!N20 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:27 pm

On an extremely lighter note, if anyone lost a rear light on the Melbourne memorial ride PM me, I saw one fall off in front of me, but by the time I picked it up and got going again I lost you.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby chriso_29er » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:42 pm

I came across Crutchy on my ride this morning, great to see he seemed to be still motoring along with intent to finish the event as he started out to do. Big thumbs up mate, seemed a little stressed with food situation, but seeing the distance he put on today after we met, still going very strong.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby 2sharp » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:44 pm

I started this thread because I was almost immediately engrossed in this race, after waiting impatiently for it to start.
Over the ensuing 13 days nothing changed this. In fact, so many great stories compounded to increase my excitement further. Juju's restart. The progress of the non-cyclist 18 year old. My old colleague Rupert Guiness's progress and reports. The amazing ability of Kristoff to appear fresh as in any video he appeared in. Sarah Hammond's own incredible performance to be in 3rd place. And so on, and so on.
I thought it was a wonderful event. Largely devoid of corporate control and with wonderful interaction between the dot-watchers, and the riders, over various platforms and media sources. The only thing I was bummed about was that Jesse had retired from the race. Wasn't at all bummed about the banana-eating attention whore retiring though.
I don't live on the route but had to travel to Canberra last Friday, so I managed to engineer the family's travel time and route to intercept Kristoff as he came through Bundanoon.
We waited on a quiet corner and shortly after he appeared on the familiar red Jaegher. He waved and shouted 'good morning' cheerily at us. We cheered and took some bad snaps then hopped back in the car and not 5 minutes later a friend from Sydney rang with the news suspecting Mike's death in the accident near Canberra. We were shocked and drove on nauseous. It appears Kristoff learnt the news some 30 minutes after riding past us.
I elected not to immediately tell my daughter, who was keen to see Sarah somehow/somewhere in our Canberra schedule. I try to find and promote strong athletic female role models to my daughter, and Sarah was certainly one of those.
I've elected not to read much about the accident nor all the speculation online in comments and various articles, and only skimmed the 3 pages that were added to this thread over that period.
I may not also read too much more when the coroner's report is done. It won't change much for me to learn that it was Mike's fatigue or the drivers fault, or something else (another wombat?)
Mike is gone. Death is absolute. I feel deeply for Mike's family and friends of course, but I'm also gutted for Jesse who has been handed one of life's biggest !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! sandwiches.
Whether the race happens again, in whatever form, is obviously not up to me but I think I would welcome it being run again in its current form. I imagine Mike would too.

Jon

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby TonyMax » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:51 am

queequeg wrote:Might be worth giving Crimestoppers a call to let them know you saw Mike not long before the collision and that he was quiet visible, and you were able to pass him safely.


__PG__ wrote:I presume you will give this statement to the police? I'm sure it will help them immensely.


Done, I've just called Crimestoppers, I'm not sure how much help my info will be as it was half an hour and 10km prior to the accident, but they have my details.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby g-boaf » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:19 am

TonyMax wrote:
queequeg wrote:Might be worth giving Crimestoppers a call to let them know you saw Mike not long before the collision and that he was quiet visible, and you were able to pass him safely.


__PG__ wrote:I presume you will give this statement to the police? I'm sure it will help them immensely.


Done, I've just called Crimestoppers, I'm not sure how much help my info will be as it was half an hour and 10km prior to the accident, but they have my details.


Even though it might not seem like much, it's a something for them to consider - someone saw him before the accident and he was riding normally, etc.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby franber1810 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:14 pm

No idea what happened in the accident, I'm sure relevant authorities will go through the procedure to investigate the fatality. Just after it became clear it was Mike Hall that was killed, I sent a message to Kim Raeymaekers (he had already been told and read it online, this was post the IPWR organisers announcement) asking if he needed help as he went off the route near Jingellic and was heading towards the Hume Hwy. It seemed Holbrook was the best option of a town, this was around 7PM, he said he was mentally a mess and was looking for a hotel, I said I would go and pick him up in the morning (I'm in Canberra) or we could look at options to get him to Sydney.
Saturday morning, by luck two men coming back from a cycling holiday in Tasmania stopped in at Holbrook and said they would take him to Canberra, no problems. I met him in Canberra and booked him on Murrays Bus to Sydney. I explained to the lady at Murrays, very briefly about the issue and she said 'no problems, next bus to Sydney' Normally a bike has to be boxed or packed etc., Kim's bike was literally a bike with bags still on it, aero bars on and water bottles in cages. Driver said 'no problems, lets put it in '.
Sent a few messages via social media to have someone assist Kim in Sydney when he got there.

Kim got to be at the Sydney ride, on the steps with other fellow riders, to remember his close friend.

Absolutely no kudos for me sought in this, I just wanted to say that many people felt for those riders as we went from dot watching to grieving for people we didn't know but felt so sad for. Many people helped them, many people just said to themselves, 'cyclist' how can I help.
In the time of tragedy, we are not a bad group to be a part of.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby RobertL » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:57 pm

franber1810 wrote:No idea what happened in the accident, I'm sure relevant authorities will go through the procedure to investigate the fatality. Just after it became clear it was Mike Hall that was killed, I sent a message to Kim Raeymaekers (he had already been told and read it online, this was post the IPWR organisers announcement) asking if he needed help as he went off the route near Jingellic and was heading towards the Hume Hwy. It seemed Holbrook was the best option of a town, this was around 7PM, he said he was mentally a mess and was looking for a hotel, I said I would go and pick him up in the morning (I'm in Canberra) or we could look at options to get him to Sydney.
Saturday morning, by luck two men coming back from a cycling holiday in Tasmania stopped in at Holbrook and said they would take him to Canberra, no problems. I met him in Canberra and booked him on Murrays Bus to Sydney. I explained to the lady at Murrays, very briefly about the issue and she said 'no problems, next bus to Sydney' Normally a bike has to be boxed or packed etc., Kim's bike was literally a bike with bags still on it, aero bars on and water bottles in cages. Driver said 'no problems, lets put it in '.
Sent a few messages via social media to have someone assist Kim in Sydney when he got there.

Kim got to be at the Sydney ride, on the steps with other fellow riders, to remember his close friend.

Absolutely no kudos for me sought in this, I just wanted to say that many people felt for those riders as we went from dot watching to grieving for people we didn't know but felt so sad for. Many people helped them, many people just said to themselves, 'cyclist' how can I help.
In the time of tragedy, we are not a bad group to be a part of.


Well done. I saw a lot of people on FB offering this sort of help. The dot-watchers have become a community of sorts.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby bychosis » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:18 pm

RobertL wrote:
franber1810 wrote:No idea what happened in the accident, I'm sure relevant authorities will go through the procedure to investigate the fatality. Just after it became clear it was Mike Hall that was killed, I sent a message to Kim Raeymaekers (he had already been told and read it online, this was post the IPWR organisers announcement) asking if he needed help as he went off the route near Jingellic and was heading towards the Hume Hwy. It seemed Holbrook was the best option of a town, this was around 7PM, he said he was mentally a mess and was looking for a hotel, I said I would go and pick him up in the morning (I'm in Canberra) or we could look at options to get him to Sydney.
Saturday morning, by luck two men coming back from a cycling holiday in Tasmania stopped in at Holbrook and said they would take him to Canberra, no problems. I met him in Canberra and booked him on Murrays Bus to Sydney. I explained to the lady at Murrays, very briefly about the issue and she said 'no problems, next bus to Sydney' Normally a bike has to be boxed or packed etc., Kim's bike was literally a bike with bags still on it, aero bars on and water bottles in cages. Driver said 'no problems, lets put it in '.
Sent a few messages via social media to have someone assist Kim in Sydney when he got there.

Kim got to be at the Sydney ride, on the steps with other fellow riders, to remember his close friend.

Absolutely no kudos for me sought in this, I just wanted to say that many people felt for those riders as we went from dot watching to grieving for people we didn't know but felt so sad for. Many people helped them, many people just said to themselves, 'cyclist' how can I help.
In the time of tragedy, we are not a bad group to be a part of.


Well done. I saw a lot of people on FB offering this sort of help. The dot-watchers have become a community of sorts.


It appears that, contrary to much of the media, there are lots of good people left in this world.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

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