Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

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P!N20
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby P!N20 » Wed May 10, 2017 12:33 pm

TonyMax wrote:I guess it might satisfy some people's desires if the driver was charged, but it won't do anything for me. I feel for him or her, even if the driver is deemed to be "at fault" I doubt they left home that morning intending to run down a cyclist.


So let's say I'm driving my car and my phone beeps and I make the decision to pick up my phone and check the message. In that instant that my attention was elsewhere, your partner/mother/brother/sister (pick someone you love) steps out onto the road and I run into them. Will you still feel for me? Even though I was doing something illegal while 'in control' of a vehicle capable of killing people? And if I had left the phone where it was I could have stopped without incident?

I reckon you would be after my blood. And I reckon you would probably want to stop this from happening again.

Your comment is consistent with us still calling collisions 'accidents', and why cars are perceived as this creature that we are unable to control, absolving drivers of any blame. (Oopsies! My car ran off the road!)

Take the recent tragedy of a 4yo being killed in Berwick. First the heading: Four year old boy dies after being hit by out of control vehicle... Oh, I didn't realise cars could drive themselves. We have to get to the fifth paragraph before there is any mention of a driver; It is believed the driver stated he had undergone dialysis and had blood taken just before the incident. So I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest he probably shouldn't have been driving, yet there was plenty of sympathy for the driver.

We've really got to change this attitude that deaths involving motor vehicles is normal.

Please note; I'm not suggesting the driver who ran into Mike was on his phone or was even at fault; I'll let the investigators decide that.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby biker jk » Wed May 10, 2017 12:40 pm

P!N20 wrote:
TonyMax wrote:I guess it might satisfy some people's desires if the driver was charged, but it won't do anything for me. I feel for him or her, even if the driver is deemed to be "at fault" I doubt they left home that morning intending to run down a cyclist.


So let's say I'm driving my car and my phone beeps and I make the decision to pick up my phone and check the message. In that instant that my attention was elsewhere, your partner/mother/brother/sister (pick someone you love) steps out onto the road and I run into them. Will you still feel for me? Even though I was doing something illegal while 'in control' of a vehicle capable of killing people? And if I had left the phone where it was I could have stopped without incident?

I reckon you would be after my blood. And I reckon you would probably want to stop this from happening again.

Your comment is consistent with us still calling collisions 'accidents', and why cars are perceived as this creature that we are unable to control, absolving drivers of any blame. (Oopsies! My car ran off the road!)

Take the recent tragedy of a 4yo being killed in Berwick. First the heading: Four year old boy dies after being hit by out of control vehicle... Oh, I didn't realise cars could drive themselves. We have to get to the fifth paragraph before there is any mention of a driver; It is believed the driver stated he had undergone dialysis and had blood taken just before the incident. So I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest he probably shouldn't have been driving, yet there was plenty of sympathy for the driver.

We've really got to change this attitude that deaths involving motor vehicles is normal.

Please note; I'm not suggesting the driver who ran into Mike was on his phone or was even at fault; I'll let the investigators decide that.


Well said. My thoughts exactly.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Trevtassie » Wed May 10, 2017 6:47 pm

It's interesting, in the jurisdiction where you *know* you will be charged if you hit a cyclist with your car, Japan, drivers treat cyclists like gods...

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby trailgumby » Wed May 10, 2017 10:56 pm

biker jk wrote:
P!N20 wrote:
TonyMax wrote:I guess it might satisfy some people's desires if the driver was charged, but it won't do anything for me. I feel for him or her, even if the driver is deemed to be "at fault" I doubt they left home that morning intending to run down a cyclist.


So let's say I'm driving my car and my phone beeps and I make the decision to pick up my phone and check the message. In that instant that my attention was elsewhere, your partner/mother/brother/sister (pick someone you love) steps out onto the road and I run into them. Will you still feel for me? Even though I was doing something illegal while 'in control' of a vehicle capable of killing people? And if I had left the phone where it was I could have stopped without incident?

I reckon you would be after my blood. And I reckon you would probably want to stop this from happening again.

Your comment is consistent with us still calling collisions 'accidents', and why cars are perceived as this creature that we are unable to control, absolving drivers of any blame. (Oopsies! My car ran off the road!)

Take the recent tragedy of a 4yo being killed in Berwick. First the heading: Four year old boy dies after being hit by out of control vehicle... Oh, I didn't realise cars could drive themselves. We have to get to the fifth paragraph before there is any mention of a driver; It is believed the driver stated he had undergone dialysis and had blood taken just before the incident. So I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest he probably shouldn't have been driving, yet there was plenty of sympathy for the driver.

We've really got to change this attitude that deaths involving motor vehicles is normal.

Please note; I'm not suggesting the driver who ran into Mike was on his phone or was even at fault; I'll let the investigators decide that.


Well said. My thoughts exactly.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby andrewjcw » Thu May 11, 2017 8:26 am

I think it's pretty well known and accepted being on a road is very dangerous. We can and should try to reduce accidents and improve attitudes and make it safer, but at the same time letting 20 million people drive about in 1500kg+ vehicles at 100km/h means death is always going to be a common thing, doubly so if some aren't in metal cages with air bags. Any response has to be grounded in reality, where people make mistakes, and legislation has to be enforced and supported.

If you want to talk stupid needless death I'd probably start with the 3k Australians who took their own life last year.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby mikesbytes » Thu May 11, 2017 10:11 am

I understand where Tony is coming from, no amount of post incident analysis is going to bring Mike back. The best we can get from this tragedy is that from what is learnt about the incident results in actions to reduce the risk of it happening to someone else.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby g-boaf » Thu May 11, 2017 12:03 pm

andrewjcw wrote:I think it's pretty well known and accepted being on a road is very dangerous. We can and should try to reduce accidents and improve attitudes and make it safer, but at the same time letting 20 million people drive about in 1500kg+ vehicles at 100km/h means death is always going to be a common thing, doubly so if some aren't in metal cages with air bags. Any response has to be grounded in reality, where people make mistakes, and legislation has to be enforced and supported.

If you want to talk stupid needless death I'd probably start with the 3k Australians who took their own life last year.



Being on the road isn't dangerous- it is inattentive and or agressive road users who make things dangerous.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Chris249 » Thu May 11, 2017 12:41 pm

P!N20 wrote:
So let's say I'm driving my car and my phone beeps and I make the decision to pick up my phone and check the message. In that instant that my attention was elsewhere, your partner/mother/brother/sister (pick someone you love) steps out onto the road and I run into them. Will you still feel for me? Even though I was doing something illegal while 'in control' of a vehicle capable of killing people? And if I had left the phone where it was I could have stopped without incident?


Yes, I'd feel for you. I feel for the guy whose decisions probably killed my father when they were involved in sport. My wife feels for the driver whose decision to make an illegal U turn killed her ex-husband. Our kids feel for the driver whose decision to make an illegal U turn killed their father. I've investigated a lot of accidents (almost all of them off the road) and most people who have suffered do not actually feel vindictive towards the person who caused the incident.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby silentC » Thu May 11, 2017 1:05 pm

I don't think it's really about restitution or revenge for the victim's family though. It should be more about deterrent. If we see people being punished harshly for something like using our phone whilst driving, then perhaps we are less likely to do it ourselves.

We don't know the details of this case and probably wont until it goes to court, assuming it does (I have heard the same rumour but that's all it is). But lets hope that if it was a rear-ending through neglect, ie texting whilst driving, that the driver is not let off lightly, despite how miserable they may feel about it.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby robbo mcs » Thu May 11, 2017 7:46 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Being on the road isn't dangerous- it is inattentive and or agressive road users who make things dangerous.


I have to disagree with that statement. Being on the road is inherently dangerous. There are many things that can go wrong besides driver behaviour. There can be mechanical failures with vehicles or bikes, unexpected weather or road conditions, animals strikes etc.

When things go wrong moving at 100kmh in a vehicle weighing several tonnes you can't escape the laws of physics.

I would contend that unfortunately it is the attitude that it is not inherently dangerous that leads people to do stupid things like text, fiddle with phones, road rage etc. People seem believe they are sitting in a comfy lounge chair like at home, and have lost sight of the inherent danger. Peoples brains have become conditioned to driving, and over time have learnt to switch off and ignore the inherent danger around them. If people really understood and respected this danger they would be much more careful.

I agree that inattentive and aggressive drivers, drunk and drug affected drivers etc ramp up the danger levels by an order of magnitude, and this is particularly dangerous and this behaviour seems to be increasing, and is the cause of a lot of the accidents. However, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that being on the road, on a bike or in a vehicle, is inherently dangerous, even for the best behaved rider or driver. Things can and do go wrong, and can end in tragedy, even for the best behaved drivers.
Last edited by robbo mcs on Thu May 11, 2017 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby g-boaf » Thu May 11, 2017 8:23 pm

robbo mcs wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
Being on the road isn't dangerous- it is inattentive and or agressive road users who make things dangerous.


I have to disagree with that statement. Being on the road is inherently dangerous. There are many things that can go wrong besides driver behaviour. There can be mechanical failures with vehicles or bikes, unexpected weather or road conditions, animals strikes etc.


You can be on a shared pathway and still get hit by a car. It has happened - drunk driver leaving the road, hitting the rider and keeping going. That was in Sydney, not too far from where I live. Fortunately the driver was caught.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Howzat » Thu May 11, 2017 8:30 pm

I can understand feeling sorry for motorists whose negligence or lack of care causes accidents that kill people, but I'll still send them to prison for it.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby andrewjcw » Fri May 12, 2017 5:55 am

So how do you feel about motorists who weren't negligent and showed appropriate care that accidentally kill people?

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby TonyMax » Fri May 12, 2017 7:57 am

robbo mcs wrote:I agree that inattentive and aggressive drivers, drunk and drug affected drivers etc ramp up the danger levels by an order of magnitude, and this is particularly dangerous and this behaviour seems to be increasing, and is the cause of a lot of the accidents. However, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that being on the road, on a bike or in a vehicle, is inherently dangerous, even for the best behaved rider or driver. Things can and do go wrong, and can end in tragedy, even for the best behaved drivers.

This.

I told our young fella when he got his licence that he is now the most deadly he has ever been.

Think about any time you go driving on a two way road. If the speed limit is 100km/h you are regularly about a metre away from a head on collision which could kill both drivers and any passengers. All it takes is a failed tie rod end or other component and the steering slews you into the path of an oncoming vehicle. Bang. Accident. Car makers build in margins of safety but think about all the vehicles at least in the ACT which don't have to have a yearly inspection, and what sort of condition they might be in.

I think over time we maybe all become a bit complacent and put our trust in the magic white lines.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying earlier that the driver who killed Mike Hall should be excused or not punished, or that he or she was acceptably texting/doing makeup/whatever else may have caused the collision if the driver was at fault. I'm just saying I feel for them as they will have to live with it for the rest of their days. I feel for the family and friends of Mike also, definitely. 100%.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby warthog1 » Fri May 12, 2017 10:28 am

andrewjcw wrote:So how do you feel about motorists who weren't negligent and showed appropriate care that accidentally kill people?


If they managed to kill somone through no fault of that person killed, I'd argue they weren't driving with appropriate care, or that it wasn't their driving that was at fault.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Comedian » Fri May 12, 2017 12:28 pm

P!N20 wrote:
TonyMax wrote:I guess it might satisfy some people's desires if the driver was charged, but it won't do anything for me. I feel for him or her, even if the driver is deemed to be "at fault" I doubt they left home that morning intending to run down a cyclist.


So let's say I'm driving my car and my phone beeps and I make the decision to pick up my phone and check the message. In that instant that my attention was elsewhere, your partner/mother/brother/sister (pick someone you love) steps out onto the road and I run into them. Will you still feel for me? Even though I was doing something illegal while 'in control' of a vehicle capable of killing people? And if I had left the phone where it was I could have stopped without incident?

I reckon you would be after my blood. And I reckon you would probably want to stop this from happening again.

Your comment is consistent with us still calling collisions 'accidents', and why cars are perceived as this creature that we are unable to control, absolving drivers of any blame. (Oopsies! My car ran off the road!)

Take the recent tragedy of a 4yo being killed in Berwick. First the heading: Four year old boy dies after being hit by out of control vehicle... Oh, I didn't realise cars could drive themselves. We have to get to the fifth paragraph before there is any mention of a driver; It is believed the driver stated he had undergone dialysis and had blood taken just before the incident. So I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest he probably shouldn't have been driving, yet there was plenty of sympathy for the driver.

We've really got to change this attitude that deaths involving motor vehicles is normal.

Please note; I'm not suggesting the driver who ran into Mike was on his phone or was even at fault; I'll let the investigators decide that.

So, my friends recent experience where she was hit from behind by a motor vehicle has been quite a learning experience for me. I've learned that even if you are totally at fault and you hit and severely injure another member of the community, all you will get is an inconsequential driving ticket (few hundred and a few points). You won't loose your licence.

Financially - all you have to pay is the ticket, and your car excess. You will not have to contribute in any way to the rehabilitation of the victim as CTP will cover everything. So financially - probably around a thousand will be the total out of pocket. A bit of cash but not super significant compared to total cost of ownership of a vehicle.

So, I've realised that the CTP system while no doubt set up for all the right reasons has had the unintended consequence that motorists need not concern themselves with the impact their driving has on the lives of their victims.

Consequentially - I think that in general people do not drive carefully on the road simply because there is little or no incentive for them to do so.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Trev Campbell » Fri May 12, 2017 2:02 pm

TonyMax wrote:
I told our young fella when he got his licence that he is now the most deadly he has ever been.



I taught both my kids to drive. First thing I said to both of them when they sat in the drivers seat. 'You are now in control of a deadly weapon, you can kill people or yourself with it. Just like a gun, treat it the same way'

I don't think this point is re-enforced enough to any driver let alone new drivers.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby silentC » Fri May 12, 2017 2:39 pm

When my niece was 15, she went to a party out in the bush with a bunch of friends, some of whom were driving age. Someone wanted a lift but all the drivers had been drinking, so she offered to drive and, well they let her. She knew how to drive well enough to get the car going but she lost control on a corner and rolled the car. She wasn't hurt too bad but one of her passengers was seriously injured and required extraction from the car - she may well have died.

Now, she gives a talk at the local RYDA course every year and tells her story. I have seen a video of it and she puts her heart and soul into it. The injured passenger is one of her best friends and she tells it from the perspective of being responsible for the injuries that her friend still lives with. It does get through to some of the kids. I suppose even if it makes a few of them think about it, then it's worthwhile.

Anyway I think it can help having one of your peers deliver the message. Unfortunately she'll be in her 20's in a couple of years and so will probably be looked upon as an 'oldie' by the kids.

Not sure if all the courses do similar but they should.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Discodan » Fri May 12, 2017 4:36 pm

g-boaf wrote:Being on the road isn't dangerous- it is inattentive and or agressive road users who make things dangerous.


That kind of like saying jumping off a cliff isn't dangerous, it's just the landing at the bottom that is. By putting ourselves into that environment we are putting ourselves in danger, unfortunately until google cars take over inattentive or agro drivers are part of the landscape
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby BJL » Fri May 12, 2017 5:20 pm

Discodan wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Being on the road isn't dangerous- it is inattentive and or agressive road users who make things dangerous.


That kind of like saying jumping off a cliff isn't dangerous, it's just the landing at the bottom that is. By putting ourselves into that environment we are putting ourselves in danger, unfortunately until google cars take over inattentive or agro drivers are part of the landscape


A poor comparison. The cliff didn't make the decision or take any action to put your life at risk. Motorists can and often do.

The mere act of riding a bicycle on the road is not dangerous at all because there's no 'landing' so to speak. As cyclists, we do not put ourselves in danger by our mere existence on the roads, it's motorists who put us in danger with their poor driving and even poorer attitude. How many cyclists would be seriously injured or killed if motorists were removed from the roads?

What you're doing is blaming the victim.

Well, I guess that solves all crime in this country. Simply blame victims for putting themselves in situations where they can become victims.

What's really needed is an incentive for the government to get bad motorists off the roads. How about we take $1 from every politician's salary for every motoring offence committed by a motorist with a valid driving license. Then they might see to it that the bad motorists are removed from the roads and stay removed.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby g-boaf » Fri May 12, 2017 7:35 pm

Discodan wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Being on the road isn't dangerous- it is inattentive and or agressive road users who make things dangerous.


That kind of like saying jumping off a cliff isn't dangerous, it's just the landing at the bottom that is. By putting ourselves into that environment we are putting ourselves in danger, unfortunately until google cars take over inattentive or agro drivers are part of the landscape



You are victim blaming. Aggro drivers can be dealt with well, provided law enforcement is done properly. Heavy penalties for close passes and without the need for millimetre precise judgements. Put the motorist at presumed guilt unless they can prove otherwise.

You must be very lucky to not need to ride on the road. I'm not so lucky. I have to ride on the road, there isn't another option. Do you expect me to spend all my time on Zwift doing 4 or 5 repeats of the mountain? I'm certainly not going to do that.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Howzat » Fri May 12, 2017 11:29 pm

It's not "failed tie rod ends" that are causing crashes, although failure to maintain a roadworthy vehicle is negligence.

And it's not the kinetics of road travel that make it as unsafe as it is.

The three most common factors in road fatalities are, in order, speeding, drink driving, and fatigue.

The single most common car "accident" in Australia is running in to the back of the vehicle in front. It's not the most common kind because our brakes are failing.

The problem of road safety in Australia is overwhelmingly about driver behaviour.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Trevtassie » Sat May 13, 2017 8:36 am

And I'm fairly convinced a lot of these open road "oops I didn't see them"s are miscalculated close passes, because as we've established above, most drivers are crap...

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Comedian » Sun May 14, 2017 2:46 pm

Trevtassie wrote:And I'm fairly convinced a lot of these open road "oops I didn't see them"s are miscalculated close passes, because as we've established above, most drivers are crap...

And if they say "oopsie - sorry" then they get off without penalty. Drivers aren't careful because they don't have to be.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby mikesbytes » Sun May 14, 2017 6:29 pm

It can cost several seconds to slow down for a venerable road user
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