Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

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bychosis
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby bychosis » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:10 pm

djw47 wrote:This should be a challenge, not a race. I'd even go so far as to stagger the start over a few days so that it cannot be considered a race to the finish line.

Challenge or race, the guys at the pointy end will still be trying to outdo each other.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby g-boaf » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:21 pm

bychosis wrote:
djw47 wrote:This should be a challenge, not a race. I'd even go so far as to stagger the start over a few days so that it cannot be considered a race to the finish line.

Challenge or race, the guys at the pointy end will still be trying to outdo each other.


That's where you must have maximum amounts of riding hours and minimum amounts of sleep needed. If they go outside of those rules, then they are disqualified. Yeah, it's part of the challenge, but I think when we see some of the comments from some participants, rules need to be set.

Is there official approval for this event in 2018?

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby djw47 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:56 pm

queequeg wrote:
djw47 wrote:While I totally get that people want to push themselves to the limit, it's clear that some of the riders push themselves beyond what is safe. Riding hundreds of kms a day with little proper/adequate rest is insane and its little wonder that there are casualties. Mike Hall admitted suffering from blurred vision the day before his crash, how much that, plus riding all night to try and catch the leader played in his death we may never truly know, but it'd be astonishing if it hadn't played some part.

This should be a challenge, not a race. I'd even go so far as to stagger the start over a few days so that it cannot be considered a race to the finish line.


I am sure that will come up in the inquest, but it's worth pointing out that Mike had stopped for the night in Cooma and did not resume his trip until the morning of the incident. Will be watching the inquest with interest.


IIRC, the accident happened before sunrise a day or two after MH had complained about his problems with being able to see properly in the dark. He was pushing himself beyond his own physical capabilities (by his own admission) and it seems unlikely that a few hours sleep would have altered that.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby silentC » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:36 pm

So his inability to see properly in the dark caused a car to run into him from behind?
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby CKinnard » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:08 pm

silentC wrote:So his inability to see properly in the dark caused a car to run into him from behind?


I took a sustained intertest in the 'race', and Mike's state judging by his regular comments, was edgy and uncomfortable throughout.
He had been unnerved by many close passes, and commented on several in particular more than once. He had also started complaining about his eyesight, and being disoriented in since Melbourne.

A defense lawyer would make mince meat of Mike's comments, once found.
Nevertheless, motorists on the morning who had also passed him in the hour so before his death, said he was riding straight and well to the left, and his lights made him very visible.

I believe all new cars should have black boxes that include forward and rear cameras, and possibly a camera focused on the two front
passengers. There's a sensor that watches the driver's eyes and can detect when the driver is getting the noddies.
I can't imagine these set ups adding more than $250 to the price of a car. Insurance premiums and investigation and litigation expense would drop through the floor I should imagine. And it is likely road carnage would decrease also, ergo health care costs.

Apart from a rubbish diet and alcohol, the car is the most destructive thing in modern civilization, causing 3.5 deaths a day in Australia, and the serious injury rate is almost 30 times that.

It's sad that we have to move towards being constantly monitored, but personal responsibility has degenerated significantly in my life time, and texting, phones, fatigue from poor health have all increased. I've seen enough smashed bodies not to be a flippant moron about the risks and costs. It's a part of the human condition most are too chicken sht to confront, hence they get these devil may care attitudes.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby g-boaf » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:58 pm

CKinnard wrote:
silentC wrote:I believe all new cars should have black boxes that include forward and rear cameras, and possibly a camera focused on the two front
passengers. There's a sensor that watches the driver's eyes and can detect when the driver is getting the noddies.
I can't imagine these set ups adding more than $250 to the price of a car. Insurance premiums and investigation and litigation expense would drop through the floor I should imagine. And it is likely road carnage would decrease also, ergo health care costs.


Mercedes has already done this since the previous two E-Class generations. I think they monitored the driver's eyes and steering/throttle inputs. If the driver was detected starting to go into micro-sleep, it sounded a loud warning. Now they go much further with lane keeping assist, automatic emergency braking for pedestrians or cyclists, monitoring cross traffic (in case need of emergency braking). Even scenarios like a driver mistakenly turning onto the motorway exit ramp and going the wrong way, it will warn of that. I imagine (but don't know for certain) that if you did keep going, it would probably slam on the brakes. It also will protect against those typical parking accident where the driver thinks they are in reverse but is in drive (forward) and accelerates accidentally through the wall of a parking garage. In that case it just won't let the car move at all (along with a loud alarm sounding).

It's not impossible, the technology is available. Audi thinks it can do even full autonomous driving already, just that the laws don't allow it. Volvo is also very close to that level too. And I know Mercedes is preparing for this in Australia, I've seen the test car in Sydney with its Stuttgart registration and intelligent drive promo decals on the side.

I think this technology must come forward into all cars. It is needed to stop drivers doing bad things.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby CKinnard » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:00 pm

g-boaf wrote:I think this technology must come forward into all cars. It is needed to stop drivers doing bad things.


Thanks for the reminder. I was watching either vehicle virgins or salmondrin the other day, and their merc took evasive action when another car tried to change lanes into theirs. I totally agree with the concept, but think it will take decades to refine it. nevertheless, it will probably save more life and limb than damage from day 1.

One of the issues I think has to be overcome is an algo for choosing the lesser of two or more evils...as in the only options are two or more accidents, and the algo has to determine which is least damaging. i.e. a car suddenly brakes in front of you when it tries to avoid hitting a child that runs out on the road. your car's computer has to determine whether to steer evasively to the left to avoid rear ending the car (and pushing the car into the child), but steering to the left will put you up onto the footpath where there are more children!

another scenario. you are waiting at a red light. you see in the rear vision mirror a truck bearing down on you with no sign of slowing. the intersection is clear of oncoming traffic. do you hit the accelerator to reduce the speed the truck hits you? or brace and let the truck slam you, and push your mangled wreck into the intersection anyway?

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby g-boaf » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:09 am

CKinnard wrote:
g-boaf wrote:I think this technology must come forward into all cars. It is needed to stop drivers doing bad things.


Thanks for the reminder. I was watching either vehicle virgins or salmondrin the other day, and their merc took evasive action when another car tried to change lanes into theirs. I totally agree with the concept, but think it will take decades to refine it. nevertheless, it will probably save more life and limb than damage from day 1.

One of the issues I think has to be overcome is an algo for choosing the lesser of two or more evils...as in the only options are two or more accidents, and the algo has to determine which is least damaging. i.e. a car suddenly brakes in front of you when it tries to avoid hitting a child that runs out on the road. your car's computer has to determine whether to steer evasively to the left to avoid rear ending the car (and pushing the car into the child), but steering to the left will put you up onto the footpath where there are more children!

another scenario. you are waiting at a red light. you see in the rear vision mirror a truck bearing down on you with no sign of slowing. the intersection is clear of oncoming traffic. do you hit the accelerator to reduce the speed the truck hits you? or brace and let the truck slam you, and push your mangled wreck into the intersection anyway?


That's why those engineers are paid a heap to work on this stuff. It is massively complicated and difficult and they really have to get it right because our lives depend on it. It is massively impressive what they've done so far.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby silentC » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:30 am

A defense lawyer would make mince meat of Mike's comments, once found.

Naturally, it's their job to do so and I'd be disappointed if they didn't. I'm just surprised that others without a vested interest would also latch onto the comments and assume they were a contributing factor.

What I see is a bloke riding his bike along a highway around dawn like so many of us do and being hit from behind by an inattentive driver.

But let's see what the inquest reveals. Nobody here knows what really happened.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby bychosis » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:01 pm

silentC wrote:Nobody here knows what really happened.


Only the driver really knows and they are quite likely to not verbalise what actually happened.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby silentC » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:10 pm

Actually a mate of mine did a secondment to traffic division in the police and the forensics can be pretty good. Skid marks, trajectories, that sort of thing. So let's hope there's not a lot of wriggle room.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby andrewjcw » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:16 pm

They can be, and can they can also tell you nothing and the driver literally can't recall anything more than 'i was driving along and then heard a noise so i stopped'.

You can have a 10 million dollar inquest but it won't magically produce video evidence of the event.

Either way I think discussing the general safety of cycling and competitive ultra endurance events is entirely appropriate.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby silentC » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:23 pm

Sure, I'm just mindful of the fact there will be people wanting to use this incident as a reason to ban bicycles from high speed roads altogether.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby queequeg » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:01 pm

andrewjcw wrote:They can be, and can they can also tell you nothing and the driver literally can't recall anything more than 'i was driving along and then heard a noise so i stopped'.

You can have a 10 million dollar inquest but it won't magically produce video evidence of the event.

Either way I think discussing the general safety of cycling and competitive ultra endurance events is entirely appropriate.


I am watching it with interest. A rider on the recent SM1200 Audax ride was also killed, and as far as I know they hadn't established whether it was a single person accident or whether the rider was hit.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby antigee » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:14 pm

silentC wrote:
A defense lawyer would make mince meat of Mike's comments, once found.

Naturally, it's their job to do so and I'd be disappointed if they didn't. I'm just surprised that others without a vested interest would also latch onto the comments and assume they were a contributing factor.

What I see is a bloke riding his bike along a highway around dawn like so many of us do and being hit from behind by an inattentive driver.

But let's see what the inquest reveals. Nobody here knows what really happened.


"being hit from behind" ?.....from reports at the time not even sure the vehicle was being driven in the same direction as Mike? The print edition of The Australian reported it as a "head on collision"....not that journalists get facts right all the time...time will tell

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby silentC » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:59 pm

Yes you are right. It's probably a rumour I have heard...
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby CKinnard » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:04 pm

silentC wrote:Actually a mate of mine did a secondment to traffic division in the police and the forensics can be pretty good. Skid marks, trajectories, that sort of thing. So let's hope there's not a lot of wriggle room.


presuming there was skid marks.
but it's just as likely there wasn't if this person fell asleep, was texting, inattentive, whatever.
if there's no evidence on the road, then there's essentially no evidence.
all other evidence is no proof of where the cyclist was at the time of being hit.

one thing I haven't seen discussed above is that competitors be forced to use cameras front and back of their bikes....and the fact be advertised widely....though the nuttiest drivers are unlikely to find out.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby silentC » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:22 pm

presuming there was skid marks

Absence of tells a story too. Or maybe I watch too much CSI. OK I have never watched CSI...

Anyway I'm just saying that the driver might not want to be honest about what happened but that's not the only avenue open to investigators and quite a lot, a surprising amount I have been led to believe, can be determined from crash site data. But like anything it is largely up to chance.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby madmacca » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:11 am

queequeg wrote:
andrewjcw wrote:They can be, and can they can also tell you nothing and the driver literally can't recall anything more than 'i was driving along and then heard a noise so i stopped'.

You can have a 10 million dollar inquest but it won't magically produce video evidence of the event.

Either way I think discussing the general safety of cycling and competitive ultra endurance events is entirely appropriate.


I am watching it with interest. A rider on the recent SM1200 Audax ride was also killed, and as far as I know they hadn't established whether it was a single person accident or whether the rider was hit.


While the family of the SM1200 rider have asked not for social media comment, I think the police have stated publicly that they don't believe another vehicle was involved.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby queequeg » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:28 pm

madmacca wrote:
queequeg wrote:
andrewjcw wrote:They can be, and can they can also tell you nothing and the driver literally can't recall anything more than 'i was driving along and then heard a noise so i stopped'.

You can have a 10 million dollar inquest but it won't magically produce video evidence of the event.

Either way I think discussing the general safety of cycling and competitive ultra endurance events is entirely appropriate.


I am watching it with interest. A rider on the recent SM1200 Audax ride was also killed, and as far as I know they hadn't established whether it was a single person accident or whether the rider was hit.


While the family of the SM1200 rider have asked not for social media comment, I think the police have stated publicly that they don't believe another vehicle was involved.


It was unclear, as the information shared on the Audax groups indicated they hadn't made up their mind and it was under investigation. I only raise it, and the event is similar in nature to the IPWR, and would surely be affected by any recommendations made by a coroner.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Ross » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:11 pm

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-new ... 06dkb.html

A Canberra court will hear an inquest into the death of a world-renowned British cyclist during a coast-to-coast race earlier this year.

Mike Hall, 35, was killed early on March 31 after a fatal collision with a car south of Canberra, at the intersection of the Monaro Highway and Williamsdale Road.

At a directions hearing in the ACT Coroner's Court on Monday, Coroner Bernadette Boss invited any interested parties to seek leave to appear at the inquest.

Only the territory government answered the call, and Dr Boss gave the representative leave to appear.

The race organisers did not seek the coroner's leave to appear at the inquest, and it is not yet clear whether or not they will participate.

Ken Archer, counsel assisting the Coroner, told the court on Monday he had been in contact with the race organisers, and he noted there may be matters that arise that were "relevant to their interests."

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby queequeg » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:24 pm

Ross wrote:http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/inquest-opens-into-death-of-british-cyclist-mike-hall-20171218-h06dkb.html

A Canberra court will hear an inquest into the death of a world-renowned British cyclist during a coast-to-coast race earlier this year.

Mike Hall, 35, was killed early on March 31 after a fatal collision with a car south of Canberra, at the intersection of the Monaro Highway and Williamsdale Road.

At a directions hearing in the ACT Coroner's Court on Monday, Coroner Bernadette Boss invited any interested parties to seek leave to appear at the inquest.

Only the territory government answered the call, and Dr Boss gave the representative leave to appear.

The race organisers did not seek the coroner's leave to appear at the inquest, and it is not yet clear whether or not they will participate.

Ken Archer, counsel assisting the Coroner, told the court on Monday he had been in contact with the race organisers, and he noted there may be matters that arise that were "relevant to their interests."


No criminal charges have been laid in relation to Mr Hall's death.


So, the driver involved has not been charged with anything at all? Or they just haven't been given anything more than a traffic infringement? Or is that the purpose of the inquest, to determine if any charges should be laid or not?
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby silentC » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:15 am

The purpose of the inquest is to establish exactly what happened. I gather the way it works is that the coroner will investigate the circumstances of the incident and if they determine that the driver might have been at fault, it will be referred to the director of prosecutions (or whatever they call it in the ACT) to determine whether or not to lay charges. The coroner doesn't have any power to lay charges, they can only advise the DPP.
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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby newierider » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:29 am

i was a avid dot watcher last year too, i was shocked as to how emotional i was over mike halls death, he was such an inspiration to me. i have to say though these events are incredibly dangerous not only for the cyclists, but for the motorists too. as much as i love it that these guys push themselves to their limits, they are doing this on dangerous busy highways, if you sleep for 2 hours a night, for 2 weeks, lets face it, no matter how experienced you are, you are not going to be safe on the road and you are also putting motorists at risk.
personally i think it should be done in stages and timed when it is on roads with huge semi trailers, off road its a whole different story.
i know its trying to keep with the whole "overlander" tradition, but these are different times, they didnt have huge semi-trailers back then.

im really looking forward to this years race though, for me, i will be watching the youtube vlogger Abdullah Zeinab, im hoping he puts lots of live feeds on. ryan flinn was pretty strong last year, and also durianrider, im keen to see if he can walk the talk. i really hope there are some people uploading footage this year.

who do you guys think the favourites are? i dont really know any of the other riders.
Last edited by newierider on Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby madmacca » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:45 pm

queequeg wrote:
Ross wrote:http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/inquest-opens-into-death-of-british-cyclist-mike-hall-20171218-h06dkb.html

A Canberra court will hear an inquest into the death of a world-renowned British cyclist during a coast-to-coast race earlier this year.

Mike Hall, 35, was killed early on March 31 after a fatal collision with a car south of Canberra, at the intersection of the Monaro Highway and Williamsdale Road.

At a directions hearing in the ACT Coroner's Court on Monday, Coroner Bernadette Boss invited any interested parties to seek leave to appear at the inquest.

Only the territory government answered the call, and Dr Boss gave the representative leave to appear.

The race organisers did not seek the coroner's leave to appear at the inquest, and it is not yet clear whether or not they will participate.

Ken Archer, counsel assisting the Coroner, told the court on Monday he had been in contact with the race organisers, and he noted there may be matters that arise that were "relevant to their interests."


No criminal charges have been laid in relation to Mr Hall's death.


So, the driver involved has not been charged with anything at all? Or they just haven't been given anything more than a traffic infringement? Or is that the purpose of the inquest, to determine if any charges should be laid or not?


I think the normal process is that police defer laying charges (if any) until the coronial inquest has been conducted.

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