pro cycling tactics - stage 12 TDF spoiler alert

[newierider]

hi guys, just watching the tour de france, regarding team sky riding a hard pace at the front, im trying to get my head around this.
im assuming the idea is to wear their opponents down, so lets say froome is in 5th position and they are climbing up say 12-15%, at those speeds, surely theres barely any drafting going on? is the guy at the front really working that much harder than the guy in 5th position?, and with riding a pace like that, isnt that wearing froome down too?

and on the flats, team sky again leading the way on a hard pace, froome in say 5th position, wouldnt he be better off in 15th position to shelter a bit more? or is the bigger idea to keep him in a safer position in the peleton?

just watched stage 12, that last few hundred metres was never going to be froomes attack, he's not great on really steep punchy hills, that was always going to be better for fabio aru, i really dont know why he didnt attack 5 kilometres before.. i feel like if they didnt put such a high pace down, maybe froome would have had the legs to put an attack in on that last 5k.

would love to hear your thoughts, still trying to get my head around tactics

[vosadrian]

No expert here..... but here is my understanding:

* I think the speed those guys climb particularly at sub 10% gradients is enough to make quite a difference with drafting. I would guess there is a 20-30W benefit at least and that could make a real difference.

* Running a high pace on the flats was more about catching the breakaway. They may have had a stage win in mind.

* Running a high tempo anywhere is about neutralising attacks. As soon as the pace slows the attacks come which much be managed. It is difficult for an attack to stick at a high pace. Froome is working as hard as his opponents behind him... but not as hard as the guy on the front. As soon as someone attacks they are working as hard as the guy on the front.

* Staying in 5th instead of at the back means less chance of being involved in a crash. Less chance of being caught out by an attack. Less chance of being boxed in. And 5th is not much worse than 15th for aero drag.

[newierider]

thanks so much! all makes sense

[g-boaf]

hi guys, just watching the tour de france, regarding team sky riding a hard pace at the front, im trying to get my head around this.
im assuming the idea is to wear their opponents down, so lets say froome is in 5th position and they are climbing up say 12-15%, at those speeds, surely theres barely any drafting going on? is the guy at the front really working that much harder than the guy in 5th position?, and with riding a pace like that, isnt that wearing froome down too?

and on the flats, team sky again leading the way on a hard pace, froome in say 5th position, wouldnt he be better off in 15th position to shelter a bit more? or is the bigger idea to keep him in a safer position in the peleton?

just watched stage 12, that last few hundred metres was never going to be froomes attack, he's not great on really steep punchy hills, that was always going to be better for fabio aru, i really dont know why he didnt attack 5 kilometres before.. i feel like if they didnt put such a high pace down, maybe froome would have had the legs to put an attack in on that last 5k.

would love to hear your thoughts, still trying to get my head around tactics

Adrian has got it exactly right.

Running really high pace is either to catch someone or to prevent breakaways.

I know our resident TdF afficionados frown upon this sustained hard riding by Sky, but it is effective in stopping attacks because the attacking rider (or riders) have to go so far into the red just to get past the Sky bunch, let alone building the break and then maintaining it. It's going to damn well hurt and/or they'll blow up.

And with the speed these guys go in the hills, you can get the benefit of drafting. And also staying ahead is a good way of avoiding crashes.

[MichaelB]

Also, when setting a high tempo up a climb, it's controlled by them, and they know what they can do and keep it up for a long time.

By doing this, for someone to break away and get a meaningful gap, they need to go into the 'red' and either blow up, or just dangle off the front. Witness the attack by Brice Fielleu, he got a great gap (over a minute I think) but then eventually faded, got caught and spat out the back.

[g-boaf]

Also, when setting a high tempo up a climb, it's controlled by them, and they know what they can do and keep it up for a long time.

By doing this, for someone to break away and get a meaningful gap, they need to go into the 'red' and either blow up, or just dangle off the front. Witness the attack by Brice Fielleu, he got a great gap (over a minute I think) but then eventually faded, got caught and spat out the back.

That last bit is a great example. You just can't keep up that effort on your own. It's very, very hard.

[BJL]

I think Sky let the yellow jersey go but will keep it on a tight leash. Takes the pressure off them having to defend it day after day. It would be interesting to see what happens if Aru has a mechanical problem or needs to take a nature break.

[MichaelB]

I think Sky let the yellow jersey go ....

I honestly don't think so. Froome was cooked

[RonK]

I think Sky let the yellow jersey go ....

I honestly don't think so. Froome was cooked

Too right he was...

[biker jk]

I think Sky let the yellow jersey go ....

I honestly don't think so. Froome was cooked

Too right he was...

He lost at least 20 seconds in 500 metres. That's certainly cooked. So Froome's climbing form isn't back to previous years and the Dauphine was a good yardstick. Froome was bluffing about having improved from the Dauphine to prevent the other GC contenders from attacking.

[RobertL]

He lost at least 20 seconds in 500 metres. That's certainly cooked. So Froome's climbing form isn't back to previous years and the Dauphine was a good yardstick. Froome was bluffing about having improved from the Dauphine to prevent the other GC contenders from attacking.

Maybe. Or he just had a bad day. Or bonked. Or had a cramp. Or that particularly steep ramp didn't suit him.

I wouldn't say - yet - that his climbing is not at its best.

[CycloTron]

Aru will need a lead more sizeable that 6 seconds going into Stage 20 if he wants to have any chance of beating Froomey.

Tonight will be fascinating.

[westab]

Froome looked cooked at the end last night - I think he looks like he is still in the box seat to take the yellow jersey back in about a weeks time (possible even as late as the time trial)

While I don't understand all the tactics vs "gentlemen agreement" why didn't they attack him when he ran wide at the bottom of the final climb. He made a mistake coming in too fast. It just seems to me that Team Sky just bullied the GC contenders that this was "some sort of mechanical" and they shouldn't attack. It made me a little angry and sad - but I could be wrong. Should have he been attached or not when he ran wide and off the road?

[biker jk]

He lost at least 20 seconds in 500 metres. That's certainly cooked. So Froome's climbing form isn't back to previous years and the Dauphine was a good yardstick. Froome was bluffing about having improved from the Dauphine to prevent the other GC contenders from attacking.

Maybe. Or he just had a bad day. Or bonked. Or had a cramp. Or that particularly steep ramp didn't suit him.

I wouldn't say - yet - that his climbing is not at its best.

Don't forget Aru put 20 seconds on Froome on Stage 5 at La Planche des Belle Filles when he won that stage.

[RobertL]

If Froome isn't climbing as well as previous years, then maybe the lack of mountain-top finishes will actually help him rather than hurt him.

[Derny Driver]

I agree with all this.
In regard to the pacing up the mountains, the draft advantage is very small. But its a lot easier just to stare at a back wheel as you go up. Being on the front does something to your head, you never know if you are going too fast, too slow, you are looking at the never ending up hill. It cracks most people even professionals. Following a wheel is mindless and you feel a lot more comfortable. You just keep chasing it. Makes a huge difference.
But Froome has them all bluffed. He had nothing last night. The opposition made a mistake to let the Sky train dictate right up to 300 metres from the top. The place to attack him was on the previous hill, but they were all too scared to take the risk. Froome would have lost minutes if they attacked him earlier. But as i said previously, they are all riding to power numbers, so this is what we see. I wonder if Bardet and Aru learned anything last night. Froome is not as good as he is pretending to be.

Oh and newie - one bike is enough draft for anyone. You can slot in there slightly left or right depending on the wind, and its like being in heaven. So good. 15 bike-lengths back is just a constant battle with riders all around you.

"Gentlemans agreements" my thoughts. Im all for respecting the yellow jersey but this is getting ridiculous. Ive been to dozens of smaller tours and the way it works is that if the peleton is not really racing and the yellow gets a puncture or stops for a pee then the peleton will slow and wait for his team to bring him back. He is up front, he puts his hand up and basically asks permission to stop. Everyone sees it. So the peleton slows slightly or just rides tempo till he comes back. If however there is some mad 50kph chase happening or we are climbing the final berg, then bad luck, thats racing. Races are decided many times by mechanicals, crashes, punctures. If there is a break up the road then the peleton cannot keep slowing down because the yellow jersey team decided to ride ridiculously light tyres and are all having 5 punctures each per stage (Ive seen that happen), or their bikes keep playing up due to poor mechnical work.

[MichaelB]

Anyone notice how relaxed Landa looked over that last bit ? Seemed to be doing it REALLY easy, whereas all others were gasping and at least looked like they were on their death bed ...

[BJL]

I didn't say Froome wasn't cooked or anything. He looked cooked (say that ten times really quickly). He knows that he needs to keep the yellow jersey on a tight leash and couldn't afford to give too much time to Aru. But at the same time, I don't think Froome is going to be overly concerned about losing the yellow jersey. It takes pressure off Sky having to defend it everyday.

There's also the chance that Aru did too much last night and will be cooked tonight.

Should be very interesting.

[newierider]

thanks so much everyone! ive really learned a lot from this,
prediction: froome attacks on final downhill tonight, gets into full aero circus monkey mode and takes solo win gaining 18 seconds on aru.

[RonK]

Brave.

[westab]

Thanks from me as well - I also have learnt heaps more about cycle racing. It's great to hear about the "science" from the technology in bike racing. It feels like other things in "professional" sport by numbers its all about taking the "art" or "gut" feeling out of it.

ie. It is better to finish in a "respectable" 7th 2:30s (or whatever) behind the leader than finish 27th with a time gap 15:....??? or more behind because you took a chance at an early climb with the thought that you just might be able to do the unthinkable and take 5min on the rest of the field and got it wrong.

No more letting the main field who is where or if the breakaway have got 3/4/5 min lead. If you want to know where they are go catch them. It could make for more interesting racing.

[biker jk]

thanks so much everyone! ive really learned a lot from this,
prediction: froome attacks on final downhill tonight, gets into full aero circus monkey mode and takes solo win gaining 18 seconds on aru.

Froome's descending technique is nowhere near the fastest. It was a media beat up at the time.

Finally the researchers applied these findings to the descent off the Col de Peyresourde as a “crude example”, finding that Froome could have descended more than a minute quicker had he sat further back on the top tube.

http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racin ... nds-329475

[eeksll]

I think Sky let the yellow jersey go but will keep it on a tight leash. Takes the pressure off them having to defend it day after day. It would be interesting to see what happens if Aru has a mechanical problem or needs to take a nature break.

Now that its been brought up again ... I heard the commentators say the same thing a few times. But I don't understand...

can someone explain whats the difference between not having the yellow jersey vs having it and "having to defend it"?

If they are already willing to let it go to not have to defend it ... yeah I don't get it

In regard to the pacing up the mountains, the draft advantage is very small. But its a lot easier just to stare at a back wheel as you go up. Being on the front does something to your head, you never know if you are going too fast, too slow, you are looking at the never ending up hill. It cracks most people even professionals. Following a wheel is mindless and you feel a lot more comfortable. You just keep chasing it. Makes a huge difference.

I am personally surprised with this. From the few TDF stages I have seen, its really not that long a period where the leader is following the domestique (think thats the correct term) up a hill. I might understand if its for the whole day, but usually its quite short.

In reference to stage 12, the commentator did say something about the sky rider being selfish leaving froome to himself on the last 400m. I just don't understand how he could have done anything other than push Froome.

"Gentlemans agreements" my thoughts. Im all for respecting the yellow jersey but ...

Does the gentlemens agreement only surround the current wearer of the yellow jersey? e.g if Froome wasn't wearing the yellow when Aru attacked a few nights ago, is that perfectly fine, from the gentlemens agreement pov?

[Derny Driver]

...can someone explain whats the difference between not having the yellow jersey vs having it and "having to defend it"?

If they are already willing to let it go to not have to defend it ... yeah I don't get it

I will probably ramble here because it all depends on the circumstances.
I'll start by saying that the Yellow Jersey is the biggest deal in the race and a team will never 'give it away' unless in exceptional circumstances. For a start, the team holding the yellow gets PAID big money each day they hold it. On some of the small tours Ive been to it can be $500 a day. As well as that there is all the publicity in the papers, the TV. Its everything. You give it away, you may not get it back.
Defending the jersey takes a lot of effort ....usually. This tour is actually a poor example of that because in all the flat stages the sprinters teams ride the front. But normally you have all the teams of the riders in the top 5 or 6 attacking you non stop trying to put their GC man in a break. And your guys have to chase it down. All day every day.
A team of mine once won the jersey in the opening prologue and we had to defend it for 8 or 9 days in a row. We held it all week and won the tour. But I had to put my other 5 riders on the front every day to try to control all the attacks. They chased every break that had a GC threat in it. By the end of the tour our positions were #1, and #150, 151, 152, 153, 154 or something stupid like that. The boys wasted themselves keeping our leader in good position at the final climb each day. I was so proud of them. We only won by a couple of seconds.
The only time you would give the jersey away is if you were in a situation where your team could not control the race. If your domestiques were tired or you lost a few in a crash. You may let a small break go just to settle the attacks, and let a rider from a small invited team take the win - if you knew for sure you could beat the guy in one of the later stages, like a time trial or hill finish. Then you could let that team ride the front and defend the yellow for a couple of days. But you would still need to closely monitor your rivals in the top 10 so its hardly a massive rest for your team. But your team wouldnt need to ride tempo on the front every day.
The other thing about the yellow jersey is that it intimidates other riders and teams. They assume your team is strong and will sit back and ride passively, and only respond if your team does something. You can see this in the TDF. Whether this is the truth or a perception, it helps to have that yellow. People expect you to control the race speed. And you can plan everything to suit your riders strengths if they do that.
Every team director is different. I dont know what they are thinking sometimes. I am not expert by any means but I have a good record when Ive been calling the shots in small national international races. You simply mark all the threats and dont let them go in breaks. You allow small teams to go in breaks to settle the stage whenever possible. You take control and refuse to allow another team to dominate. You ride the front like a boss even if your riders are average. You dont go for silly consolation prizes like green or polka dot jerseys, or even stage wins, if you want to win the tour.

PS gentlemans agreement only applies to the current yellow jersey holder. Sometimes the other jersey holders may be included depending on the event.

[find_bruce]

Thanks from me as well - I also have learnt heaps more about cycle racing. It's great to hear about the "science" from the technology in bike racing. It feels like other things in "professional" sport by numbers its all about taking the "art" or "gut" feeling out of it.

ie. It is better to finish in a "respectable" 7th 2:30s (or whatever) behind the leader than finish 27th with a time gap 15:....??? or more behind because you took a chance at an early climb with the thought that you just might be able to do the unthinkable and take 5min on the rest of the field and got it wrong.

No more letting the main field who is where or if the breakaway have got 3/4/5 min lead. If you want to know where they are go catch them. It could make for more interesting racing.

Depends on what your goals & ambitions are. Quintana (8th) & Contador (11th)) probably don't care about a top 10 finish & would attack if they thought they had the legs. Simon Yates (6th) George Bennett (9th) Louis Meintjes (10th) & Mikel Landa (7th) would be concerned to show themselves as potential winners in order to get opportunities next year.