4 month old bike breaks irreparably...advice needed

[rocketeer]

Just looking at your site now, 2 points.

1. (and forgive me if this has been mentioned previously, haven';t read everything) Have you pursued Shimano at all? The fracture in the rear derailleur is not "fair wear and tear" caused by normal riding. As you say, a "catastrophic failure" as such in a 4month old bike should be covered under warraty. Most likely some unrelieved stresses in the cast component or a bad material batch, tooling temperature etc may have caused it.

2. If you intend to make a claim to ACCC, I don't believe you should be selling the bike. You have tried to resolve it with the respective parties, you now have the right to go to ACCC, stating a view similar to i have mentioned above. If you sell the bike, you have no standing ground.

edit: and furthermore, to aid my point 1, i dare say this is your problem:



I can't compare to another Ultegra derailleur, but I dare say Shimano have cut it a wi bit fine in leaving material to form the screw boss here. They have reamed out a countersink to, leaving next to no material holding that side of the boss together. Any significant tightening of the fastener through here would stress the metal and result in that exact stress crack. I be about 99% sure of this from the pics (100% if i saw it in the flesh). That be the problem with cutting weight and hance material from these top end parts.

[mikeg]

Am I the only one thinking that the broken part indicated, is actually a broken derailler hanger which is part of the frame and dropout???

[toolonglegs]

Am I the only one thinking that the broken part indicated, is actually a broken derailler hanger which is part of the frame and dropout???

No you are not as it is obviously broken above the mounting screw.

[sogood]

Good point that it's the hanger that broke now that detailed photos are up, while prior discussions were mis-guided by OP's statement that the RD broke.

Further, I note that the rear wheel looked fine, no obvious damage to its few spokes (low spoke count wheel). If the chain/RD primarily dropped into the wheel, there surely would be a lot more damage there.

[Shard]

+1 for the mount looks stuffed and i'd say no twig or whatever is going to cause the metal to come apart at the mounting bolt with no other damage.

Also don't sell the bike or if you do have a legit claim with the ACCC or DFT you're not going to get anywhere if you're no longer in possession of the goods.

[familyguy]

Do we have enough threads about this bike now??

[im_no_pro]

Checked out the site.... must say thats a whole lot more effort than I ever would have put in.

IMHO, based purely on consumer law and the bike itself, I don't like your chances, unless you can prove there was a manufacturing fault with the RD.


BUT..... I would be pursuing them based on the statements you quoted regarding their performance guarantee, extended warranty etc. You may well just succeed by arguing that this is misleading and deceptive conduct. No guarantee that you will get anything out of this outcome either, but quite possible they could receive an enforceable undertaking from the ACCC, which would prove quite costly to them and ensure that they act appropriately in the future.

Good luck, keep us posted

[MidlifeCyclist]

Not wanting to risk sounding negative on my first post but is it just me or are those marks on the derailleur body (where the Ultegra word is) look like it's been dropped??

On first glance I thought there was a stress crack right there actually...

[twizzle]

Not wanting to risk sounding negative on my first post but is it just me or are those marks on the derailleur body (where the Ultegra word is) look like it's been dropped??

On first glance I thought there was a stress crack right there actually...

Unlikely it could be proven that the marks were there before the derailleur went for a ride.

Further, I note that the rear wheel looked fine, no obvious damage to its few spokes (low spoke count wheel). If the chain/RD primarily dropped into the wheel, there surely would be a lot more damage there.

Nope - mate of mine bent his hanger when the bike fell over, hopped on and twenty seconds later pulled the derailleur off when the chain went into the wheel. Wheel damage was two slightly bent spokes.

[sogood]

Double posting is bad!

[mikeg]

It would be worthwhile to get an impartial examination done by a reputable shop not associated with BikeForce or Trek

[RobRollin]

It would be worthwhile to get an impartial examination done by a reputable shop not associated with BikeForce or Trek

This is wehat I have suggested to the OP from the get go. He needs a report from a independent sourse stating where, and possibly why the rear mech/drop out has sheared off.

[sittingbison]

its all conjecture as to the whys and wherefores.

Blind Freddy can see they are abrogating their responsibilities. Its unfortunate for BF that cause and effect have in this instance resulted in a cheap component failure destroying an expensive frame, but Such Is Life.

[rocketeer]

Am I the only one thinking that the broken part indicated, is actually a broken derailler hanger which is part of the frame and dropout???

Ahh, is that a derailleur hanger, I learn a new thing everyday

In that case ignore my Point 1, and yep, that be treks responsibilty.

[sogood]

In that case ignore my Point 1, and yep, that be treks responsibilty.

The bike was sold by Trek whole, so all components are Trek's responsibility.

[twizzle]

its all conjecture as to the whys and wherefores.

Blind Freddy can see they are abrogating their responsibilities. Its unfortunate for BF that cause and effect have in this instance resulted in a cheap component failure destroying an expensive frame, but Such Is Life.

From the pics provided, the component didn't fail - it was ripped off the frame. As the most common cause of this failure is a bent hanger due to the bike being dropped/knocked, why would anyone expect that the LBS to immediately accept responsibility?

If you owned a shop and accepted responsibility for the consequences for every person who bent the derailleur hanger, how much would it cost? My regular ride partner has bent the hanger twice in the last year, at no fault of his own, the first time resulting in the derailleur being ripped off, wrecking the derailleur and damaging the wheel.

If the bike was reported to be correctly changing gears prior to 'the incident', why would the shop be responsible?

[sittingbison]

...the most common cause of this failure is a bent hanger due to the bike being dropped/knocked...

knoddie has said numerous times and also on the website he did not drop the bike, he was riding along and "kapow" it went pear shaped. He has also said the bike has only done 615km, and has had its 30 day service.

If the bike had been dropped it would have scratches in the usual places and would be obvious to the LBS, and this story would not have got past go. Is the broken bit the hanger bolt hole? If it is and the RD is otherwise undamaged, the frame failed. Why? Who can tell if it is otherwise (ie undropped) sound. Failed hanger? Failed RD movement?

Remember the LBS has said to knoddie it could have been caused by a faulty gear shift. hmmmm. Sounds more like some kid in the service department didn't adjust the travel, and when the shift was made "whammy" RD in spokes end of story.

As I said before all this is conjecture. If it does not show signs of rider related damage LBS and Trek (and perhaps Shimano) should give knoddie a new bike.

[twizzle]

...the most common cause of this failure is a bent hanger due to the bike being dropped/knocked...

knoddie has said numerous times and also on the website he did not drop the bike, he was riding along and "kapow" it went pear shaped. He has also said the bike has only done 615km, and has had its 30 day service.

If the bike had been dropped it would have scratches in the usual places and would be obvious to the LBS, and this story would not have got past go. Is the broken bit the hanger bolt hole? If it is and the RD is otherwise undamaged, the frame failed. Why? Who can tell if it is otherwise (ie undropped) sound. Failed hanger? Failed RD movement?

Remember the LBS has said to knoddie it could have been caused by a faulty gear shift. hmmmm. Sounds more like some kid in the service department didn't adjust the travel, and when the shift was made "whammy" RD in spokes end of story.

As I said before all this is conjecture. If it does not show signs of rider related damage LBS and Trek (and perhaps Shimano) should give knoddie a new bike.

- If the alignment of the gears is correct, the low stop is irrelevant as the SIS would still have kept it on the gear. The stops are protection against incorrect cable adjustment. Plus, knoddie claims he was just riding along, no mention of a shift.
- As in other discussion, if knoddie was in biggest cog and doing 25kph, he was either pedalling at ~ 115 - 120 cadence, or fully cross chained.
- You are relying on the word of the owner that there was no prior damage. It's a bit frikken hard to tell after the fact, isn't it? Take a look at the derailleur in the pics.

[uMP2k]

I have been staying out of this thread (although reading it with interest) because I cannot really add anything to the various theories on offer.

However, the suggestion of a "faulty gear shift" twigged my interest - how the hell do you perform a faulty gear shift - especially with STI shifting?

I know that I did once have a very similiar accident happen to me putting my rear derailleur through the spokes as I shifted gear going up a hill. Now I know for a fact that this WAS an incorrect adjustment - because I am the one that made the mistake! It is the only way (short of a bent or misaligned derailleur hanger) that I can see this happening lays at the feet of whoever last touched the adjustment.

In my case I was fortunate my steel framed bike suffered no more than a a couple of scratches and a broken spoke. Oh yeah and there was the broken helmet from being slung over the handlebars and straight into the ground head first.

[m@]

Conjecture as to the cause of the failure is a waste of time IMO - we simply don't have access to all the information needed to determine what the cause of failure was. The RD hitting the spokes due to a bent RD hanger from being dropped, and spontaneous failure due to a manufacturing fault are both consistent with the info provided AFAICT.

What interests me is that the vendor appears to be denying liability without providing any evidence that the damage was caused by the customer. In the hypothetical situation that the RD/hanger or setup was faulty, how can the customer be expected to prove that this was the case? The burden of proof should be on the merchant to show that the failure was due to abuse IMO.

I'll wait for the outcome of the OP's ACCC action with interest.

[sogood]

If the rear setup was really faulty, I wouldn't have imagined there'd be a few months or even a few days of trouble free riding along with numerous gear shifts along the way. For what I know of RD adjustments, a few bad turns of the stop and alignment setting screws is more than enough to make the ride noisy and the chain jump around. Whatever happened to the OP's bike at the rear end appeared suddenly and without notice. Unless the OP is an absolute noob and ignorant of drive train status, I can't see how the problem could have been caused by faulty settings done by the LBS.

[sittingbison]

...knoddie claims he was just riding along, no mention of a shift....You are relying on the word of the owner that there was no prior damage. It's a bit frikken hard to tell after the fact, isn't it? Take a look at the derailleur in the pics....

We only have the word of knoddie, plus the pics, plus what transpires at the LBS to go on.

...I have been told by LBS that Trek Australia have said the breakage may be due to a "gear change error” or “the chain locking up”. Excuse me...a gear change error!!!...

...was told by LBS owner he had never seen this occur before, and that he would get the rep in to have a look...

...two weeks later I received a call from LBS advising that they were still waiting on Trek to get back to them, but that on inspection of the bike they had found the carbon frame was damaged by the rear derailleur at the time of the break and could not be repaired...

These comments suggest that the LBS have not seen any indication the bike was damaged buy knoddie prior to the incident. If they saw a crash/drop scratch or any other get out of jail free sign they would have immediately said "sorry knoddie blah blah blah" and not waited to show the Trek rep.

[RICHARDH]

m@

What interests me is that the vendor appears to be denying liability without providing any evidence that the damage was caused by the customer. In the hypothetical situation that the RD/hanger or setup was faulty, how can the customer be expected to prove that this was the case? The burden of proof should be on the merchant to show that the failure was due to abuse IMO.

And essentially thats the problem here, most ppl dont go past the piont were their told its not there problem. Unless the the manufacturer can prove that he caused the damage (prove that is not suggest) they are obliagated to replace the item. The LBS just needs to help that process along and as someone already said they should really be helping the customer with this one.

[sogood]

Sounds like that we need to call in the "Accident Investigators". To gain the evidence, metallurgists will need to examine the fracture plane to see whether fatigue and other faults are present.

[twizzle]

...was told by LBS owner he had never seen this occur before, and that he would get the rep in to have a look...

Yeah - well, we know that's horse !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! for a start. Chain-into-the-wheel is bloody common.

Unless the the manufacturer can prove that he caused the damage (prove that is not suggest) they are obliagated to replace the item. The LBS just needs to help that process along and as someone already said they should really be helping the customer with this one.

Why is the onus on the manufacturer? If the setup of the rear derailleur was correct, it should have been impossible for this event to occur. Manufacturer is going to blame LBS who did the service, LBS is going to blame the owner for fiddling with the bike, owner is going to blame everyone.

This whole thing is a WOFTAM - I heard about a dispute the other day over a $20K performance engine where the customer has now spent more than $20K on legal fees and has achieved absolutely NOTHING. Engine builder is blaming machinists, machinist is blaming engine builder and none of the consumer protections have helped him one bit.