Is it as bad as this?

fat and old
Posts: 2847
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby fat and old » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:31 am

AUbicycles wrote:
If the author is commenting that there is so much abuse, I wonder if she is riding inconsiderately or carelessly? I struggle to understand the motivation of other riders to abuse others without reason. Something is happening that other riders are reacting, and if it is happening so frequently then this is cause for concern.

Most comments are aimed at policing my riding behaviour or reveal a sense of entitlement to right of way.


It is human nature to ignore ones own flaws and in this case if the rider states that most comments are on policing her riding behaviour, it would be worthwhile understanding why so many others bike riders have a problem with her behaviour and working on fixing it.



This is what I was alluding to earlier....the propensity for cyclists (regular commuters and roadies) to be very aware of their own and others space on the roads. Partly as we seem to be a society of rules; partly as cyclist or driver, we have a sense of entitlement to that space. All of the vids I've seen of cycling heavy Europe show very little of this. Minimal hand signals, no apparent warnings etc. Maybe by her standards (that were formed "at home") we are rude bastards?

While I haven't seen any overt carrying on in my commutes around inner Melbourne, I have seen plenty of bell ringing and hand signalling; have heard heaps of "passing", "on your right", "watch out" etc plenty loud enough to hear. Maybe that's confronting to somebody not used to it.

Many times I've read reports from members who've been overseas that speak highly of their experiences...."everybody just moves and gets along". Could this be it?

jaythefordman
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:20 pm

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby jaythefordman » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:08 pm

chucknitro wrote:"Merie Polkamp, originally from the Netherlands, is a diversity and inclusion professional" (bolding added). .


This is all you need to know. She is a 'professional' victim, and has a career based on gender/racial social politics. She will see everything as gendered, and the world as patriarchal, and conflate a few comments into a massive issue.

I would say its her riding style that would have attracted some criticism, and hen its all on for her

redned
Posts: 473
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby redned » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:33 pm

"Typical of the Melburnian cycling scene is the preference for bikes associated with masculinity, such as road bikes and mountain bikes."

Better not tell my sister who is a keen road cyclist, or my niece who is an accomplished mountain bike racer.

Ms Polkamp is a solution looking for a problem.

uart
Posts: 928
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:15 pm
Location: Newcastle

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby uart » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:47 pm

jaythefordman wrote:
chucknitro wrote:"Merie Polkamp, originally from the Netherlands, is a diversity and inclusion professional" (bolding added). .


This is all you need to know. She is a 'professional' victim, and has a career based on gender/racial social politics. She will see everything as gendered


Yes that was also my first impression upon reading her job description. :)

She may have a point regarding the skew towards sports orientated cycling in Australia (which has the tendency to be more aggressive and male dominated), and the underlying reasons for that are worth discussing. However I believe that she is quite wrong to attribute this to misogyny or sexism.

The reality is that had she been a male, and riding exactly the same routes and in the exact same manner, then she would have copped slightly more abuse. Yes she is correct that there are some bullies out there in our male dominated cycling culture, but they are mostly equal opportunity bullies, and will usually bully other males that they perceived to be "hubbards" far more readily than if they were female.

thatmdee
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:54 am
Location: Newcastle

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby thatmdee » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:51 am

Or, you know, we could try not treating and viewing everything as somehow gendered through a narrow lens.

Or perhaps the root cause is somewhat similar -- perhaps women tend to work in lower paying jobs, and a symptom of that is maybe less women cycle because it's an expensive hobby (bike, kit, cleats, shoes etc etc)? Plenty of female runners around, not so many cyclists.. But don't pin the gender imbalance on cycling alone. It's a multi-faceted issue.

And somehow gendering and associating road and mountain bikes with masculinity does nothing more than perpetuate the problem. If she wanted to write something with a bit more substance, perhaps talk about podium girls?

Comparing lycra-clad enthusiasts -- i.e. people who ride for longer periods of times for fitness/health -- to leisure riders / commuters is just dumb.

human909
Posts: 8216
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby human909 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:23 pm

thatmdee wrote:, and a symptom of that is maybe less women cycle because it's an expensive hobby (bike, kit, cleats, shoes etc etc)?

HA! You have to be kidding. Cycling is an extremely cheap hobby. It is only made expensive if you choose it to be. $300 will get you a decent road bike second hand and you are pretty much there. Kit, cleats, shoes are hardly necessary.


But regarding the cycling environment. There is plenty to be said about its male dominances, it causes and its effects. The most prominent one is that cycling ISN'T male dominated when there is a safe environment provide and cycling for transport is promoted.

I have plenty of female friends who cycle. I don't hear them complaining about males or other cyclists. I DO hear them expressing concerns about drivers.

fat and old
Posts: 2847
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby fat and old » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:33 pm

FEIW....two observations this week

Thursday morning commute, 6.30am, from Keon Pde to Reservoir Station, StGeorges Rd path (outer north Melbs, maybe 20k’s to CBD). Coldish, rain. Counted 7 other commuters. 5 female, 2 male. That was a surprise.

This morning, Pt Nepean Rd, Rosebud. Watched cyclists pass by while stuffing face post ride. Clear, cool, head or tailwind. App. 1/3 riders female. Almost all cyclists roadies.

Plenty of females out there as far as i can see.

uart
Posts: 928
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:15 pm
Location: Newcastle

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby uart » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:57 pm

fat and old wrote:Plenty of females out there as far as i can see.

Yes same observation here F&O. On a weekly group ride that I do there is often about 30% female riders (road bikes).

Women definitely prefer the safety of group rides and/or good cycling facilities though. I do see quite a few women cycling for transport and recreation in inner city areas if there is good cycling infrastructure, but outside of those areas it's a lot less. All up I'd say only about 10% of the other cyclists I see when I'm out riding are women.

User avatar
jonbays
Posts: 413
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:14 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby jonbays » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:36 am

I hope her experience isn't typical but you know i don't see many women riders and i thought it was the helmet laws and the hair and beauty thing perhaps. As an older cyclist I have to let the younger guys pass me up the hills and now even the young women and the different passing calls never bother me most are friendly if slightly teasing at worst. I have heard a few sexist comments of groups coming up behind me while following young women occasionally that i might have thought too but kept to myself. Are we getting too politically correct? Is it really because your black a woman or an old fart like me? Can you take a joke or have the piss taken out of you in a good natured way?

human909
Posts: 8216
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby human909 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:06 pm

jonbays wrote:I hope her experience isn't typical but you know i don't see many women riders and i thought it was the helmet laws and the hair and beauty thing perhaps.


Hair and beauty is likely a minor factor. The real and perceived risk is probably one of the biggest factors. Not to mention that cycling has now primarily become a sport/hobby rather than practical transport. (Most sports/hobbies have a greater male dominance.)

I would suggest her experience has a basis in fact but view through the lens of a " diversity and inclusion professional".
(Though it is kinda odd given her article's headline does not recognise diversity and is not particularly inclusive of anyone who is a male cyclist.)

The problem is not as much 'male' cyclists. But why there isn't more regular jane and joe cyclists. Instead the cycling scene does tend towards fast and serious cycling and is male dominated. The latter exhibits some of the traits she complains about, but she ignores what causes the latter.

Instead the article headline groups all male cyclists as a single homogeneous group and insults them all. Kinda inflammatory if you ask me.

User avatar
Ivanerrol
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 9:12 pm

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby Ivanerrol » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:24 pm

Melbourne's population is greater than all the European cities by far except for
Moscow, London and St.Petersberg. (And of course Istanbul if you count that as a European city)
Most of the others - Melbourne is far bigger in area and has twice the population.
New York and LA are the only US cities with a larger population than Melbourne - Sydney's population is larger than LA.

These generalizations by Europeans or so called traffic experts that what works in Europe or elsewhere no way works for Australia. The culture and city/suburban life don't equate to anywhere else in the world.

And then there are the profound comments or studies by straight out of university, no life experience experts.
/sarc
"Follow your passion - go Broke. Follow an opportunity get wealthy" - Mike Rowe - Dirty Jobs

human909
Posts: 8216
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby human909 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:43 pm

(Not sure if you /sarc applies to your whole post or not.... Sorry if it does...)

Ah! The old Australia is different chestnut!

Not only are your "facts" about city populations riddled with holes, but higher population cities have more need and incentives to have urban design suited to cycling than smaller cities.

g-boaf
Posts: 8682
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby g-boaf » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:55 pm

human909 wrote:(Not sure if you /sarc applies to your whole post or not.... Sorry if it does...)

Ah! The old Australia is different chestnut!

Not only are your "facts" about city populations riddled with holes, but higher population cities have more need and incentives to have urban design suited to cycling than smaller cities.


Australia is only different because it insists on being different. Someone the other day insisted that riding here isn't possible because we aren't like Europe. I certainly gave her (and her equally ignorant partner) a serve about what exactly was the difference between Europe and Australia. They couldn't define exactly what was different.

But then there are people here who insist that Australia must be exactly like Europe as well...

macca33
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:05 pm
Location: West Gippy

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby macca33 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:12 pm

I'd be keen to know which group of muppets sponsored this idiot's visit to Melbourne....
CAAD10 Berzerker & Focus Mares CX & Jamis Xenith Elite

Image

fat and old
Posts: 2847
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby fat and old » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:21 am

It's actually really interesting to look at the different discussion on the web over this story; on Reddit, here, her linkdin page etc.

fat and old
Posts: 2847
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Is it as bad as this?

Postby fat and old » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:18 am

9.10, at Pde crossing. Capital City Trail and Nicholson St. inner Nth. 17 cyclists waiting, all with panniers or backpacks. 1 “roadie”. 11 female.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: chriso_29er, Discodan