Traffic Management and Cycling

[fat and old]

I remember that. Down at Grattan, where the tunnel pre works are going on.

Yeah, I’m not a fan as I’ve said, but there’s nothing wrong with the placement. If you really believe that it’s advising you to dismount there and then, I don’t know what to say.

[trailgumby]

I'm assuming your mate recovered ok? You MTB'ers are nuts

He did. He's been banned by the missus from racing since. Although he still attends events - he just doesn't "race" them any more (wink, nod).

The thing that really annoys me is the (dis)organisers of that particular race have the distinction of being the hosts of the last remaining MTB marathon event within reasonable driving distance of Sydney!

[human909]

Yeah, I’m not a fan as I’ve said, but there’s nothing wrong with the placement. If you really believe that it’s advising you to dismount there and then, I don’t know what to say.

I'm not sure how else it can be interpreted. It is advising cyclist who are riding on the road to dismount. It doesn't make much difference whether they do it at the sign or 100m down the read in the middle of an intersection or 100m before the sign.

[BenGr]

I came across a cyclists dismount sign where a path was being repaired. Looked like just a precaution because of gravel on an otherwise sealed path so I ignored it until I actually saw what they'd done. Loose deep gravel was a very rude shock.

I'd have appreciated a sign saying "dismount due dangerous repair job". This is in comparison to all the signs mentioning ice and slippery bridges which for most of the year are irrelevant.

[fat and old]

Yeah, I’m not a fan as I’ve said, but there’s nothing wrong with the placement. If you really believe that it’s advising you to dismount there and then, I don’t know what to say.

I'm not sure how else it can be interpreted. It is advising cyclist who are riding on the road to dismount. It doesn't make much difference whether they do it at the sign or 100m down the read in the middle of an intersection or 100m before the sign.

I’m not sure how to explain this. I don’t know if you’re being obtuse, obstinate, takin the Mickey or just ignorant. Really, I’m not trying to have a go, but I simply don’t see what’s so hard here?

The intention is clear. There are roadworks on the corner (I’m assuming there’s roadworks ahead signage further back, out of picture. I’m actually sure of it). The cycle lane has been closed. Guidance/advisory signs have been erected to convey this message to cyclists in a manner that gives them time to assimilate and process this information and make plans. These plans would to anybody else other than you and others who agree with your confusion invole pulling over at the intersection PRIOR to crossing, dismounting and crossing with the pedestrians around the worksite. Then once past the works zone, remount and proceed on. There will be T/C’s at the worksite to guide cyclists and pedestrians along the safe route.

As stated earlier, I would have used the cycle lane closed sign, along with a merge right. As cycles are vehicles that is the most appropriate signage in my viewpoint.

There are multiple issues here, some generated by the limitations of signage, some caused by people’s (in)ability to understand and process the information, some caused by the planners possible (and likely) not understanding that cycles are a vehicle, some caused by the planners (and clients) wish to provide a safe transit for vulnerable users, some caused by the attitudes of those cyclists themselves. Too many to examine using a mobile phone atm, so I’ll revisit.

[mikesbytes]

Yeh, I was thinking the same as Fat and Old that this particular example being discussed would of been better done with lane closed and merge signs.

A problem I see often with the cyclists dismount is there is no further instruction. Where are I suppose to walk? Or am suppose to stand there until I are given instructions by the traffic management person? Once I've walked, where am I suppose to remount?

[fat and old]

Food for thought. Perhaps the instances where there is a misunderstanding of the intent of Roadworks Signage as well as the supposed lack of information can be explained using a cyclist/motor vehicle analogy. Motorists constantly complain about two abreast, rego etc through ignorance of laws and facts that don’t really interest them. Cyclists hereabouts and who write comments on social media and news sites are usually well informed through necessity or interest and can refute those arguments . Roadwork Signs are of little interest to cyclists until they impact on their activities. Can you temper your attitudes enough to see the similarities?

[human909]

Yeh, I was thinking the same as Fat and Old that this particular example being discussed would of been better done with lane closed and merge signs.

Yep pretty much.

A problem I see often with the cyclists dismount is there is no further instruction. Where are I suppose to walk? Or am suppose to stand there until I are given instructions by the traffic management person? Once I've walked, where am I suppose to remount?

Exactly.

There will be T/C’s at the worksite to guide cyclists and pedestrians along the safe route.

There weren't.

I’m not sure how to explain this. I don’t know if you’re being obtuse, obstinate, takin the Mickey or just ignorant. Really, I’m not trying to have a go, but I simply don’t see what’s so hard here?

Its not hard. But it shouldn't be hard to get the signage right. Instead of putting up impractical and potentially dangerous (if taken literally) directions of dismount in the middle of the roadway.

Roadwork Signs are of little interest to cyclists until they impact on their activities. Can you temper your attitudes enough to see the similarities?

This was never an attack on specific individuals who are engaging in traffic management.

Temper attitudes? I don't see the attitude that roadwork signs (or any other signs) should provide SAFE guidance as opposed to unsafe and impractical guidance needs to be "tempered".

[bychosis]

Cyclists dismount doesn't give enough information, and becomes something to scoff at. Mostly improperly used as well, so more reason it would be ignored. Consider what a regular MTB rider would traverse, a little bit of rough pavement or loose material is a challenge to overcome.

[fat and old]

There will be T/C’s at the worksite to guide cyclists and pedestrians along the safe route.

There weren't.

Did you take that photograph?

[fat and old]

Roadwork Signs are of little interest to cyclists until they impact on their activities. Can you temper your attitudes enough to see the similarities?

This was never an attack on specific individuals who are engaging in traffic management.

Nor are most attacks on cyclists via social media directed at a single person, the example is used to describe and denigrate a cohort. You're well aware of this.

Temper attitudes? I don't see the attitude that roadwork signs (or any other signs) should provide SAFE guidance as opposed to unsafe and impractical guidance needs to be "tempered".

Perhaps "temper attitudes" is the wrong use of words here. Maybe "use the intelligence you were born with". Arguing a point to death in an effort to show that you are correct and I am wrong becomes tiresome after a while. So..

Human909 is absolutely correct in what he says. So much so that I will not venture forth any dissenting opinions in recognition of such. On any subject, no matter how minor or picayune it seems.

[fat and old]

I came across a cyclists dismount sign where a path was being repaired. Looked like just a precaution because of gravel on an otherwise sealed path so I ignored it until I actually saw what they'd done. Loose deep gravel was a very rude shock.

I'd have appreciated a sign saying "dismount due dangerous repair job".

You decided that you know better, got a nasty surprise and so denigrate the people who left it there? Was it finished subsequently? The sign removed? These are normal actions you know. If not, yeah, big no no.

[Scott_C]

An example from my work (2014)-

Correspondence from a member of the public passed on to a traffic management company:

At the moment some upgrade works are being done, and every morning I've noticed that there's a sign on the PSP saying "cyclists dismount", but nothing happening on the PSP, nobody with Stop/Slow signs to guide us, and no apparent need for cyclists to dismount.

I'm sure there's times when machinery etc is crossing but over the last few times I've gone past there's been nothing blocking the PSP or moving near it, and none of the cyclists who use the PSP have been dismounting.

Once I did see someone operating the stop/go bat and he just smiled at me and motioned for me and other cyclists to continue when I slowed down to dismount.

Is it possible for the traffic management people to cover the "cyclists dismount" sign with a sack or lay it on the ground when it's not necessary for the cyclists to dismount? That way cyclists will be more likely to respect the sign as they won't have gotten in the habit of ignoring it because it's not usually relevant.

Response from the traffic management company representative:

I am thinking this is probably the only cyclist to read a sign.

Yep, definitely nothing prejudicial in that attitude.

For what it is worth there was never a need to dismount at any time during the works unless called to a stop by a lollipop worker. The cyclists dismount signs served no purpose but to annoy and confuse cyclists.

[human909]

Did you take that photograph?

Yes I did.

Nor are most attacks on cyclists via social media directed at a single person, the example is used to describe and denigrate a cohort. You're well aware of this.

I was never intending to denigrate a cohort at all.

I know you work regularly in road works and thus might take some comments of traffic management personally. I have made an effort to not single out traffic managers and provide other examples. Further more I have explicitly stated that it is the system at issue, no necessarily individuals. I could provide numerous similar examples of safety signage and rules in my industry though that isn't to do with roadways but the same issues are often present.

[human909]

The cyclists dismount signs served no purpose but to annoy and confuse cyclists.

Exactly. Not to mention inspire further angst from the general public for cyclists not obeying 'rules' and signs.

Classic example is the permanent cyclists dismount sign on the very narrow shared pathway on the "Fairfield Pipe Bridge". A dismounted cyclist is wider than a mounted cyclist making it impossible for oncoming traffic (pedestrian or cyclist) to pass a dismounted cyclist walking normally.

Most cyclists ignore the sign. Personally I slow, or completely stop when encountering oncoming traffic as that is the most sensible thing to do. Dismounting is not sensible.

[fat and old]

Classic example is the permanent cyclists dismount sign on the very narrow shared pathway on the "Fairfield Pipe Bridge". A dismounted cyclist is wider than a mounted cyclist making it impossible for oncoming traffic (pedestrian or cyclist) to pass a dismounted cyclist walking normally.

Most cyclists ignore the sign. Personally I slow, or completely stop when encountering oncoming traffic as that is the most sensible thing to do. Dismounting is not sensible.

Not sensible yes, I agree. Safer? I'd say not, depending on the rider. As I have pointed out repeatedly, signage/instructions of any type will always take into account the lowest denominator.

I'm not taking this personal Human. Have a look at my first few posts if you think I have an issue with bagging T/M, the practitioners or trainers. What I get is frustrated. I'm not defending any of the actions taken by T/M at all. If something is stupid I'll say so or agree. If something isn't likewise. What I have done is try to explain the thought process behind the use of particular signs, the limitations and the reality, in the hope that people understand why and what better. That's all. The response?

Too much information
Not enough information
Not enough free choice
Too much free choice
I want to ride my bike where I'm told it's not advisable and then bag the blokes who did the job because I got a surprise.

OK, have it your (and everyone else's) way. It doesn't really affect my job....I do the correct thing in spite of what the Keyboard experts think, and that's all that matters. If I see someone post up something stupid or irrelevant, I'll laugh and use it as an example of what to expect in my next TBM or training session. I may even start to use Cyclist Dismount signage and take pics of those who ignore it and send them into the Herald-Sun with a link to this thread

[baabaa]

In the real world of riding a bike, if someone puts up a sign you don’t like in and around an active work site you can just use a different route the next time or until the job is complete; hardly worth getting cranky about.
Going off spoor for a block or two can often be a bit of fun as you get to see new parts of the city or 'burbs that you normally would bother exploring. And yes lollipop people are very good to bike riders.

[human909]

In the real world of riding a bike, if someone puts up a sign you don’t like in and around an active work site you can just use a different route the next time or until the job is complete; hardly worth getting cranky about.

True. In the real world I just keep on rolling on my bike and alongside an occasional eye roll.

But also in the real world in the continued perception that cyclists are law breakers because they ignore impractical and unsafe signs.... Is it really that hard to get such simple things right?

The poorer examples are road safety signs placed in the middle of cycle lanes. Extra points when it is around a bend with limited visibility so that anticipatory merging is not safe or practical.

Again in the real world I deal with the situation and keep on rolling. But these "safety measures" are increasing the risk towards cyclist not decreasing them. Bring attention to such incompetence is important if we ever want safe and practical cycling for anybody beyond the minority.

[NASHIE]

Is it really that hard to get such simple things right?

Its often not that simple. Bike dismount signs in work zones in Australia, yellow/black are advisory. The amount of signage required to relay a truly accurate condition at all times for all users would be crazy and absolutely no one would stop to read.

[human909]

Its often not that simple. Bike dismount signs in work zones in Australia, yellow/black are advisory.

The advisory nature of cyclists dismount is hardly common knowledge. Either with the broader cycling community or the road users as a whole. The message it sends to both cyclists and other is not at all productive.

The amount of signage required to relay a truly accurate condition at all times for all users would be crazy and absolutely no one would stop to read.

Nobody is suggestion a 5 page document. But the majority of cyclist dismount signs are place in situations where it makes little practical or safety sense for cyclists to dismount.

[NASHIE]

The advisory nature of cyclists dismount is hardly common knowledge. Either with the broader cycling community or the road users as a whole. The message it sends to both cyclists and other is not at all productive.

If you passed your drivers license then yellow and black are advisory. As i said earlier i have questioned dismount signage on some projects, but they are advisory. Maybe........ 'Cyclist be prepared to dismount if conditions ahead are not to a standard that allows your cycling ability to proceed safely' ? ......big sign

[human909]

Cyclists dismount signs are normally about as practical as motorist disembark and push signs.....

Strangely I haven't seen much of the latter.

[Scott_C]

In the real world of riding a bike, if someone puts up a sign you don’t like in and around an active work site you can just use a different route the next time or until the job is complete; hardly worth getting cranky about.

And in the real world sometimes they just put traffic cones in the road shoulder to protect their valuable drying concrete forcing the cyclist into the lane and he gets hit from behind and killed.

Hardly worth getting cranky about, hey.

[NASHIE]

In the real world of riding a bike, if someone puts up a sign you don’t like in and around an active work site you can just use a different route the next time or until the job is complete; hardly worth getting cranky about.

And in the real world sometimes they just put traffic cones in the road shoulder to protect their valuable drying concrete forcing the cyclist into the lane and he gets hit from behind and killed.

Hardly worth getting cranky about, hey.

Very sad, but many more facts required before you point blame at traffic management.

[mikesbytes]

"Roadworks Cyclists dismount if unsuitable to proceed"