Make your mind up! Three days ago you told me off for saying basically the same thing you said here! Some consistency to your points would not go astray. You also repeatedly fail to grasp, or maybe selectively ignore context; while you may be correct on a certain discussion point in isolation, you often seem unable to recognise how other factors can affect that point, rendering your argument invalid.human909 wrote:Yes. I believe your confusion lies in a narrow definition of vibration.Calvin27 wrote:Speed wobbles are due lack of vibration dampening now? Really? This only gets better!
That said, I would normally avoid the term vibration in describing speed wobbles due to confusion with higher frequency harmonic motion (aka 'vibration' that you are referring to) compared to the lower frequency harmonic motion (eg speed wobbles).
Either way there is no need to try to mock me, especially when you fail to grasp the basics.
Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby Duck! » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:18 pm
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby human909 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:10 am
My argument was simply that low frequency "vibrations" and high frequency "vibrations" are part of the same family. It isn't a complex one nor one that is "invalid".Duck! wrote:rendering your argument invalid.
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby fat and old » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:31 am
Strong is the irony.CXCommuter wrote:Bwahahahahahaha Biggest Pot ever calling the Kettle Blackhuman909 wrote:Either way there is no need to try to mock me, especially when you fail to grasp the basics.Calvin27 wrote:Speed wobbles are due lack of vibration dampening now? Really? This only gets better!
I thought speed wobbles were the result of wearing a helmet, all that messed up airflow?
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby Calvin27 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:33 am
Mate you are using your presumably civil engineering knowledge to apply to bicycles. Thereby comparing bridges to bicycles. Pretty invalid in my books. This thread is about carbon bikes. Bridges have no place here, start a new thread maybe?human909 wrote:My argument was simply that low frequency "vibrations" and high frequency "vibrations" are part of the same family. It isn't a complex one nor one that is "invalid".Duck! wrote:rendering your argument invalid.
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby duncanm » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:40 am
you seem to be arguing that the laws of mechanics change with scale.Calvin27 wrote: Mate you are using your presumably civil engineering knowledge to apply to bicycles. Thereby comparing bridges to bicycles. Pretty invalid in my books.
Hint - they don't.
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby Calvin27 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:09 am
I am arguing that bridge construction/design, loading conditions and maintenance schedules are completely different a bicycle. I don't know of any fully welded, brazed, hydroformed or carbon moncoque bridges, do you?duncanm wrote:you seem to be arguing that the laws of mechanics change with scale.Calvin27 wrote: Mate you are using your presumably civil engineering knowledge to apply to bicycles. Thereby comparing bridges to bicycles. Pretty invalid in my books.
Hint - they don't.
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby duncanm » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:22 am
I didn't until I googled it just nowCalvin27 wrote:I am arguing that bridge construction, loading conditions and maintenance schedules are completely different a bicycle. I don't know of any fully welded, brazed, hydroformed or carbon moncoque bridges, do you?duncanm wrote:you seem to be arguing that the laws of mechanics change with scale.Calvin27 wrote: Mate you are using your presumably civil engineering knowledge to apply to bicycles. Thereby comparing bridges to bicycles. Pretty invalid in my books.
Hint - they don't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurzyce_Bridge
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby CXCommuter » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:58 am
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby Calvin27 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:32 pm
Nah they keep changing the design due to changing standards and widthsCXCommuter wrote:Damn, was hoping to see some sleek new carbon fibre reinforced bridge built by Pinarello
^ That's the real issue with bicycle longevity imo. No point a frame being robust and lasting if you can't find a BB-right, headshock, brain or any other proprietary part.
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby mikesbytes » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:08 pm
Nope, they are too busy trying to sell electric assisted road bikes to female roadiesCXCommuter wrote:Damn, was hoping to see some sleek new carbon fibre reinforced bridge built by Pinarello
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby P!N20 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:34 pm
It was completed in 1928, all the carbon fibre bridges would have failed by now.CXCommuter wrote:Damn, was hoping to see some sleek new carbon fibre reinforced bridge built by Pinarello
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby Comedian » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:16 am
Actually... I reckon CF is top stuff. When done well and used in the right application it's magical stuff. I'm not so sure about bridges. And I'm pretty sure that it's more the way we're using it in bicycles that is less than ideal. I've spent many hours in all composite aircraft, some of which were over 30 years old. They were awesome, and very safe. Mind you I knew that if the AC received any bumps it was looked at by engineers, and repaired properly.P!N20 wrote:It was completed in 1928, all the carbon fibre bridges would have failed by now.CXCommuter wrote:Damn, was hoping to see some sleek new carbon fibre reinforced bridge built by Pinarello
From what I can see the problems with CF in bicycles is pretty much as follows.
- Drive to unusual shapes and "styling" forces multi part mold production. Round manufactured tubes offer many advantages but that's not what people want.
- Drive to ultra low weight forces very minimal construction causing very highly stressed structures and very low impact resistance.
- Constant change (Buy the next years model please) means designs aren't properly tested until the users get them. By the time issues are found they have moved on..
- Drive to low cost production means there is limited or no NDT of individual frames, and limited or no testing of whole batches.
If CF bikes were made like aircraft...
- There would be extensive testing and certification of each new frame design
- There would be NDT testing of each frame
- Frames would be made to strict quality.
- Lead times would be epically long, and once made they would produce them for many years without modification.
- I'd be betting they would be a lot heavier and a LOT more expensive. One frame would likely really last a lifetime...
Anyway.. not my problem.
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby duncanm » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:43 am
.. CF is increasingly used for concrete reinforcingComedian wrote:Actually... I reckon CF is top stuff. When done well and used in the right application it's magical stuff. I'm not so sure about bridges.P!N20 wrote:It was completed in 1928, all the carbon fibre bridges would have failed by now.CXCommuter wrote:Damn, was hoping to see some sleek new carbon fibre reinforced bridge built by Pinarello
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby Comedian » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:50 am
There are lots of different uses for it.. and many things that it's properties make it ideally suited for. Aircraft manufacturers would very much love to not have to use Ti in their aeroplanes, but there are some things you can do with it that nothing else is suitable for.duncanm wrote:.. CF is increasingly used for concrete reinforcingComedian wrote:Actually... I reckon CF is top stuff. When done well and used in the right application it's magical stuff. I'm not so sure about bridges.P!N20 wrote:
It was completed in 1928, all the carbon fibre bridges would have failed by now.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... PL20150724
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby human909 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:35 pm
Well said.Comedian wrote:Actually... I reckon CF is top stuff. When done well and used in the right application it's magical stuff. I'm not so sure about bridges. And I'm pretty sure that it's more the way we're using it in bicycles that is less than ideal. I've spent many hours in all composite aircraft, some of which were over 30 years old. They were awesome, and very safe. Mind you I knew that if the AC received any bumps it was looked at by engineers, and repaired properly.
From what I can see the problems with CF in bicycles is pretty much as follows.
- Drive to unusual shapes and "styling" forces multi part mold production. Round manufactured tubes offer many advantages but that's not what people want.
- Drive to ultra low weight forces very minimal construction causing very highly stressed structures and very low impact resistance.
- Constant change (Buy the next years model please) means designs aren't properly tested until the users get them. By the time issues are found they have moved on..
- Drive to low cost production means there is limited or no NDT of individual frames, and limited or no testing of whole batches.
If CF bikes were made like aircraft...
- There would be extensive testing and certification of each new frame design
- There would be NDT testing of each frame
- Frames would be made to strict quality.
- Lead times would be epically long, and once made they would produce them for many years without modification.
- I'd be betting they would be a lot heavier and a LOT more expensive. One frame would likely really last a lifetime...
Anyway.. not my problem.
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby fat and old » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:36 pm
West Gate Bridge, Melbourneduncanm wrote:.. CF is increasingly used for concrete reinforcingComedian wrote:Actually... I reckon CF is top stuff. When done well and used in the right application it's magical stuff. I'm not so sure about bridges.P!N20 wrote:
It was completed in 1928, all the carbon fibre bridges would have failed by now.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 3.11463904
If you've ever been inside those concrete sections and felt the bounce you'll be impressed!
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby human909 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:55 pm
Flex is not something most people associate with big structures.fat and old wrote:If you've ever been inside those concrete sections and felt the bounce you'll be impressed!
I particularly like this video:
Start around 5mins if you don't have patience, pause and skip in 10s intevals with the L and J keys you can see the deflection more clearly.
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby warthog1 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:46 pm
My patience is at an end too.10 mundane minutes
I didn't read your tip until after I'd watched it but I think you need to be an engineer to find it interesting.
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby Calvin27 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:13 pm
You should really start your own bridge thread.human909 wrote:Flex is not something most people associate with big structures.
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby silentC » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:25 pm
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Re: Carbon bikes - environmental disaster?
Postby warthog1 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:25 pm
Why not?Calvin27 wrote:
You should really start your own bridge thread.
There are only so many things we can debate before it becomes repetitive and boring.
I can't say I'd have much productive to add (in common with most of my input ) but it would be educational and new to me
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