Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

roberto73
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby roberto73 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:39 pm

Warthog wrote

"Do not claim the lane on rural roads. It is likely to end badly given the prevalence of distracted and impaired drivers."
Not claiming the lane might be just as bad.
The charge includes not staying in the lane, so maybe she ran onto the shoulder where she struck the cyclist. A narrow shoulder visible in that photo

human909
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby human909 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:05 pm

roberto73 wrote:Warthog wrote

"Do not claim the lane on rural roads. It is likely to end badly given the prevalence of distracted and impaired drivers."
Not claiming the lane might be just as bad.
The charge includes not staying in the lane, so maybe she ran onto the shoulder where she struck the cyclist. A narrow shoulder visible in that photo


If the road is narrow I absolutely claim the lane.

Claiming the lane forces the motorist to act. It also gives you significantly more space to avoid an incident.... If you are worried about distracted and impaired drivers then there is no difference in rural situations or urban. Be aware of the vehicles around you. If they aren't passing safely then take evasive maneuvers.

warthog1
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby warthog1 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:40 pm

human909 wrote:
roberto73 wrote:Warthog wrote

"Do not claim the lane on rural roads. It is likely to end badly given the prevalence of distracted and impaired drivers."
Not claiming the lane might be just as bad.
The charge includes not staying in the lane, so maybe she ran onto the shoulder where she struck the cyclist. A narrow shoulder visible in that photo


If the road is narrow I absolutely claim the lane.

Claiming the lane forces the motorist to act. It also gives you significantly more space to avoid an incident.... If you are worried about distracted and impaired drivers then there is no difference in rural situations or urban. Be aware of the vehicles around you. If they aren't passing safely then take evasive maneuvers.


It forces them to act if they are paying attention, can see you, or GAF.
The number of distracted idiots about on their mobile device or otherwise fluffing about make that a very dangerous proposition.
Similarly elderly drivers are effectively free to continue driving in this state until they come under scrutiny as a result of collision.

I know both of the roads in the fatalities in this thread, neither stand out as being overtly unsafe.
I claim the lane at pinch points in urban situations.
Claiming the lane is the path to an early grave when vehicles are doing highway speeds.
Consider the damage on both of those vehicles.
Life ending.
My experience (which includes 16 years of attending collisions in a professional capacity) leads me to conclude claiming the lane on open roads = death wish.
Sure do a weave, it works when they see it more often than not, as I'm sure you know. but ffs don't claim the lane on roads with highway speeds. The level of incapacity, negligence and incompetence in those whose hands you place your life makes that beyond foolhardy. :|
So many simply shouldn't be behind the wheel of what amounts to a motorised weapon in their hands.

warthog1
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby warthog1 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:55 pm

roberto73 wrote:Warthog wrote

"Do not claim the lane on rural roads. It is likely to end badly given the prevalence of distracted and impaired drivers."
Not claiming the lane might be just as bad.
The charge includes not staying in the lane, so maybe she ran onto the shoulder where she struck the cyclist. A narrow shoulder visible in that photo


I knew Jason Lowndes and spoke with the paramedics who attended both him and the driver.
I (used to) ride that road regularly.
Claiming the lane would have made no difference, but equally I don't believe he was.
She made no attempt to avoid him and I would suggest she didn't see him.
We can all speculate as to the reasons a 20 year old wouldn't be watching the road.
The further you are into the vehicle space the greater your chance of being hit.
Next time you drive your own car have a look at the other drivers.
Most days I see several staring at their lap whilst driving.
These days I choose roads with a shoulder where possible.
Someone else can be the statistic that brings about change :|

human909
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby human909 » Tue May 01, 2018 7:39 am

You seem to have missed my bit about "Be aware of the vehicles around you. If they aren't passing safely then take evasive maneuvers."

I do that on 60kph roads, damn right I do it on 100kph roads.

warthog1 wrote:I claim the lane at pinch points in urban situations.
Claiming the lane is the path to an early grave when vehicles are doing highway speeds.


I'm confused. If you are that worried, then why claim the lane in urban situations? Urban car speeds are more than fast enough to kill you, sure the likelihood might be greater on the injury than death side compared to highways regardless they are both things I want to avoid.

Distracted drivers? Then give yourself the space and the time to take action yourself. Claiming the lane and watching approaching traffic does this. Hugging the shoulder does not, nor does not paying attention to approaching traffic.

warthog1 wrote:Claiming the lane would have made no difference

I'm amazed how you could possibly know this no matter how many paramedics you spoke to.
Last edited by human909 on Tue May 01, 2018 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

fat and old
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby fat and old » Tue May 01, 2018 8:03 am

human909 wrote:You seem to have missed my bit about "Be aware of the vehicles around you. If they aren't passing safely then take evasive maneuvers."



I can agree with you around inner Melbs, where speeds are low and you have some reaction time. But on a 100km/h highway? How do you decide which ones are likely to pass safe when they're doing 100km/h? Are you suggesting that one vehicle's behavior can be judged by another's? They'd be over the top of you before you knew it. I have to agree with Warty here. I'd rather look like a tool in the experts eyes than a corpse in my wifes.

duncanm
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby duncanm » Tue May 01, 2018 8:31 am

human909 wrote:I'm confused. If you are that worried, then why claim the lane in urban situations? Urban car speeds are more than fast enough to kill you, sure the likelihood might be greater on the injury than death side compared to highways regardless they are both things I want to avoid.


people driving in urban traffic are generally paying much more attention. There's other cars to worry about, lights, stop signs, corners, etc etc.

On a rural road, they relax and don't pay nearly as much attention. Certainly not enough to warrant the faster speeds when on a windy road.

warthog1
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby warthog1 » Tue May 01, 2018 10:00 am

human909 wrote:You seem to have missed my bit about "Be aware of the vehicles around you. If they aren't passing safely then take evasive maneuvers."

I do that on 60kph roads, damn right I do it on 100kph roads.

warthog1 wrote:I claim the lane at pinch points in urban situations.
Claiming the lane is the path to an early grave when vehicles are doing highway speeds.


I'm confused. If you are that worried, then why claim the lane in urban situations? Urban car speeds are more than fast enough to kill you, sure the likelihood might be greater on the injury than death side compared to highways regardless they are both things I want to avoid.

Distracted drivers? Then give yourself the space and the time to take action yourself. Claiming the lane and watching approaching traffic does this. Hugging the shoulder does not, nor does not paying attention to approaching traffic.

warthog1 wrote:Claiming the lane would have made no difference

I'm amazed how you could possibly know this no matter how many paramedics you spoke to.


If I am doing 30km/h which is my typical average speed and I'm hit by a car travelling at 30kmh faster than me my odds of survival are a lot higher than one travelling 70 kmh faster. Again the pictures of the damage to the cars involved provide graphic evidence.

Duncan M and F & O have made salient points regarding the reasons for road positioning that I won't repeat.

With respect to claiming the lane, not making a difference, there were no braking marks until after the point of impact. She was not paying attention. I guess you will argue if he was smack bang in the middle of the road it may have made a difference (I disagree)
That then leaves you open to the situation in Macedon. The lead car swerves around and the following car runs you over.

He was wearing black kit and a matt black helmet (Israel cycling academy). Shoes were white. Maybe as she glanced at the road ahead occasionally he'd have been noticed. Probably not as it was a road with bends. In any case, I don't have black jerseys any more and my helmet is red and white. Flashing rear light at all times.
Yes I know the responsibility for safety should primarily live with the party that carries the harmful potential. I want to survive so I aim to be easier to avoid for the lowest common denominator.
I'm happy to meet and go for a ride with you H. I'm not that far away in Bendigo. You can show me what I should be doing on the roads here.

human909
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby human909 » Tue May 01, 2018 12:14 pm

warthog1 wrote:You can show me what I should be doing on the roads here.


Neither my initial comment nor my follow up defense and explanation of my initial comment suggested YOU should be doing things differently. That is up for you to decide.

I simply said I claim the lane. And then explained and defended why.


My experience riding on 100kph is probably far less than many others here. But when I have done so I've either used wide shoulders or claimed the lane. And when claiming the lane I've definitely been watchful of approaching traffic.


fat and old wrote:But on a 100km/h highway? How do you decide which ones are likely to pass safe when they're doing 100km/h? Are you suggesting that one vehicle's behavior can be judged by another's? They'd be over the top of you before you knew it.

In my experience you can't if you are riding in the shoulder.

If you are taking the lane I've always been able to tell. The car will generally be braking and or moving to over take well before they are over the top of you. To date, I've never had to take emergency action in such a circumstance.

But that is my experience... I'm sure both you and warthog1 have your own individual experiences and behave accordingly....

warthog1
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby warthog1 » Tue May 01, 2018 12:35 pm

human909 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:You can show me what I should be doing on the roads here.


Neither my initial comment nor my follow up defense and explanation of my initial comment suggested YOU should be doing things differently. That is up for you to decide.

I simply said I claim the lane. And then explained and defended why.


My experience riding on 100kph is probably far less than many others here. But when I have done so I've either used wide shoulders or claimed the lane. And when claiming the lane I've definitely been watchful of approaching traffic.


I choose the wide shoulder. I choose the quieter roads
I ride 30-50cm to the right of the L edge with dive room otherwise.
I have a mirror on the commuter. I pay particular attention when there is traffic coming toward me as that can mask the noise from that approaching behind and it is then I am likely to be squeezed. The weave, wiggle, call it what you will, often works.
I find my mind wanders, I don't always detect cars about to pass me.
I have seen too many culpably incompetent drivers in the course of my vocation to willingly place my life in their hands.

At the end of the day, you are an intelligent man H, we probably don't ride that differently.
I am just pointing out the consequence of being hit at highway speeds are dire and that drivers often don't pay attention.
We all need to be aware of that and ride with that taken into account. We are the ones who pay the price for others' dangerous behaviour.
There is no sign of any leadership from our Governments, Courts or Police force to protect us. It is up to us. :(

human909
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby human909 » Tue May 01, 2018 2:06 pm

Agreed. :)

Scintilla
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby Scintilla » Wed May 02, 2018 11:57 pm

warthog1 wrote:With respect to claiming the lane, not making a difference, there were no braking marks until after the point of impact. She was not paying attention. I guess you will argue if he was smack bang in the middle of the road it may have made a difference (I disagree)

A good friend of mine was killed in March 2017 near Benalla. He was riding two-abreast when they heard a car approach (both riding with fully-loaded touring panniers). They moved into single-file. Road was straight, flat, empty of other traffic. The driver hit my mate at 95 kmh. No skid marks, except for that of my mates jammed rear tyre. The driver has later told police that he saw the riders about 300-400 metres away. But then hit him!

My take on this - IF they had held the two-abreast it is far more likely that the driver would have realised the need to take correct lane-changing action. This IS my experience when touring on many 100 kmh rural roads (including highways).

warthog1 wrote:That then leaves you open to the situation in Macedon. The lead car swerves around and the following car runs you over.


My common experience with this is: the first car cuts me up close through ignorance or abuse; then the following car sees the dangerous behaviour (perhaps reinforced by my action to veer wider) and passes with much more space given, often a full change to the other side of the road.

I always ride with a rear-view mirror to moderate traffic behaviour, and keep aware of the traffic flows behind.

BobtheBuilder
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby BobtheBuilder » Thu May 03, 2018 12:11 am

Scintilla wrote:I always ride with a rear-view mirror to moderate traffic behaviour, and keep aware of the traffic flows behind.


Just out of interest, who rides with a rear-view mirror? I haven't been without one for decades and find it very strange riding without one. You learn to get a good idea of driver intent - a small decrease in speed is easily visible (the car tilts slightly) as is a change of line. If there's no change a wiggle usually wakes them up. And I'm usually fairly far out in the lane, about a third or a bit less. All this gives you a chance to get off the road in a timely manner if there's an idiot coming who hasn't seen you / doesn't care.

Of all this, though, for me, the key thing is the mirror.

(not that it's anyone's fault but the driver if you get hit from behind)

human909
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby human909 » Thu May 03, 2018 6:15 am

Scintilla wrote:The driver has later told police that he saw the riders about 300-400 metres away.

Yep. These are the drivers I most worry about and the reason why I take the lane. We really don't have a statistics on this but I would say the majority of collisions are like this. (SIDNSY is just and excuse.)

My only rear end collision was from a lady who definitely saw me. I was visiting Sydney and not heeding my own advice of lane taking. :oops: :cry: . She saw me. She though she had enough space. But know there wasn't. (I was clipped, fell, rolled and was fine. I was all ready to blast her with all my fury but she was genuinely distressed and sincerely apologetic.)

Cyclophiliac
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby Cyclophiliac » Thu May 03, 2018 10:13 am

BobtheBuilder wrote:
Scintilla wrote:I always ride with a rear-view mirror to moderate traffic behaviour, and keep aware of the traffic flows behind.


Just out of interest, who rides with a rear-view mirror? I haven't been without one for decades and find it very strange riding without one. You learn to get a good idea of driver intent - a small decrease in speed is easily visible (the car tilts slightly) as is a change of line. If there's no change a wiggle usually wakes them up. And I'm usually fairly far out in the lane, about a third or a bit less. All this gives you a chance to get off the road in a timely manner if there's an idiot coming who hasn't seen you / doesn't care.

Of all this, though, for me, the key thing is the mirror.

(not that it's anyone's fault but the driver if you get hit from behind)

I've used a rear-view mirror for a long time also, and find it very useful. I think a lot of cyclists regard them as "uncool", and so refuse to even try mirrors.

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antigee
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby antigee » Thu May 03, 2018 11:07 am

heading towards 60 and never felt the need to ride with a mirror until moved to Aus' 5 or so years ago - wouldn't ride without one now - on rural roads am keeping an eye open for vehicles behind that show no sign of slowing/deviating and always check when have oncoming vehicles that nothing is coming from behind that is going to cut back in too close - tend to ride wide and use the space to pull back into when can see a close pass coming - but each to their own on this one - I'll suffer a few irate horn blasts rather than routine fast squeeze passes

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AndreB1972
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby AndreB1972 » Thu May 03, 2018 12:06 pm

I find it strange that cyclists don't use rear-view mirrors. Considering that most of the traffic is coming from behind, and the act of looking behind you causes some sideways movement, you would think that the most basic form of self-defense would be a mirror.

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Thoglette
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby Thoglette » Thu May 03, 2018 12:42 pm

AndreB1972 wrote:the most basic form of self-defense would be .

.. ensuring that the population has basic human values and some education (and the few sociopaths have sufficient carrot-and-stick ) so that they actually look out for cyclists and wouldn't dream of passing too close.

Meahnwhile I've given up on mirrors for a couple of reasons
a) I've yet to find a mirror I like that I can position usefully that doesn't act as an airbrake. Especially as most are bar mounted.
b) The roads I use tend to bump mirrors out of adjustment and bggrs the adjusting mechanism within a few '000 kms.
c) I have, for a variety of reasons, rather good directional hearing. Plus pretty good peripheral vision.
d) With a middling riding position everything I want to see is just above my elbow.
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human909
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby human909 » Thu May 03, 2018 12:55 pm

AndreB1972 wrote:I find it strange that cyclists don't use rear-view mirrors.

I agree. Yet I don't use a mirror. I've become very adept with keeping my head on a swivel.

Thoglette wrote:a) I've yet to find a mirror I like that I can position usefully that doesn't act as an airbrake. Especially as most are bar mounted.

Here is one for you:
Image

antigee wrote:tend to ride wide and use the space to pull back into when can see a close pass coming

Me too. Riding wide in my experience reduces the chance of a close pass. But if some #$&*knuckle decides to do it anyway then at least you have room.

BobtheBuilder
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby BobtheBuilder » Thu May 03, 2018 1:11 pm

human909 wrote:Here is one for you:


Do you have a link for those?

I've used one of these for decades, without a problem. Needs adjusting, specially on bumpy surfaces, isn't perfect, but does the job.

Image

Thoglette wrote:a) I've yet to find a mirror I like that I can position usefully that doesn't act as an airbrake.


I don't go fast enough for it to act as an airbrake!


human909 wrote:
antigee wrote:tend to ride wide and use the space to pull back into when can see a close pass coming

Me too. Riding wide in my experience reduces the chance of a close pass. But if some #$&*knuckle decides to do it anyway then at least you have room.


Me too, too. Prefer some idiot reveals their idiocy through honking rather than colliding.

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Bunged Knee
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby Bunged Knee » Thu May 03, 2018 2:07 pm

BobtheBuilder wrote:
human909 wrote:Here is one for you:


Do you have a link for those?


It`s called the IRBM.

Or try Ebay mirrors.
ID please? What ID? My seat tube ID is 27.2mm or 31.6mm depending on what bikes I ride today.thanks...

Scintilla
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby Scintilla » Thu May 03, 2018 8:31 pm

When you are pushing a 30 kg camping load in four panniers, any "air-brake" effect of a mirror is too trivial to worry about.

Image

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kb
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby kb » Fri May 04, 2018 1:18 pm

AndreB1972 wrote:I find it strange that cyclists don't use rear-view mirrors. Considering that most of the traffic is coming from behind, and the act of looking behind you causes some sideways movement, you would think that the most basic form of self-defense would be a mirror.

I find it strange people swerve when doing head checks. I know it’s common as I see it all the time, but is it really that hard to ride in a straight line?
Image

Scintilla
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby Scintilla » Fri May 04, 2018 7:15 pm

*
Last edited by Scintilla on Fri May 04, 2018 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Scintilla
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby Scintilla » Fri May 04, 2018 7:15 pm

kb wrote:I find it strange people swerve when doing head checks. I know it’s common as I see it all the time, but is it really that hard to ride in a straight line?

It is a more challenging skill for most people compared with just glancing in a rear-view mirror. Also, I find that I can ride safely along the road all the while keeping a routine glance in the mirror every 15-30 seconds or so. Next-to-no riders will be doing head-checks this frequently.

I routinely pull right-turns and lane-changes to execute such, without even needing to make a head-check. Diligent use of a mirror is a skill to develop, and easier/safer than doing frequent or sustained head-checks. In my case I have a slightly stiff neck on turning right. When I do carry out a good head-check, I do it by looking over my left-shoulder, and often by turning my whole upper body (standing out of the saddle). Different strokes for different folks.

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