Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

uart
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby uart » Sat May 05, 2018 10:01 pm

Scintilla wrote:A good friend of mine was killed in March 2017 near Benalla. He was riding two-abreast when they heard a car approach (both riding with fully-loaded touring panniers). They moved into single-file. Road was straight, flat, empty of other traffic. The driver hit my mate at 95 kmh. No skid marks, except for that of my mates jammed rear tyre. The driver has later told police that he saw the riders about 300-400 metres away. But then hit him!

Mate that is so shocking, and disgusting, sorry for your lose. :(

Just out of interest, do you know what excuse the driver claimed for why he ended up hitting him, and what charges did they lay against the driver?

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby Mulger bill » Sun May 06, 2018 8:38 pm

Bunged Knee wrote:
BobtheBuilder wrote:
human909 wrote:Here is one for you:


Do you have a link for those?


It`s called the IRBM.

Or try Ebay mirrors.

THIS! The IRBM is a PiTA to install (phone a friend) but once in place IS the definition of clarity, it's sleek and aero and doesn't move.
3 drops equipped bikes, all with IRBMs. I really notice the lack when the pursuit bar fitted Fixed comes out to play
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby trailgumby » Sun May 06, 2018 9:23 pm

Scintilla wrote:A good friend of mine was killed in March 2017 near Benalla. He was riding two-abreast when they heard a car approach (both riding with fully-loaded touring panniers). They moved into single-file. Road was straight, flat, empty of other traffic. The driver hit my mate at 95 kmh. No skid marks, except for that of my mates jammed rear tyre. The driver has later told police that he saw the riders about 300-400 metres away. But then hit him!


I have no words. I'm so sorry for your loss. :cry:

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby warthog1 » Sun May 06, 2018 9:59 pm

Scintilla wrote:
warthog1 wrote:With respect to claiming the lane, not making a difference, there were no braking marks until after the point of impact. She was not paying attention. I guess you will argue if he was smack bang in the middle of the road it may have made a difference (I disagree)

A good friend of mine was killed in March 2017 near Benalla. He was riding two-abreast when they heard a car approach (both riding with fully-loaded touring panniers). They moved into single-file. Road was straight, flat, empty of other traffic. The driver hit my mate at 95 kmh. No skid marks, except for that of my mates jammed rear tyre. The driver has later told police that he saw the riders about 300-400 metres away. But then hit him!

My take on this - IF they had held the two-abreast it is far more likely that the driver would have realised the need to take correct lane-changing action. This IS my experience when touring on many 100 kmh rural roads (including highways).

warthog1 wrote:That then leaves you open to the situation in Macedon. The lead car swerves around and the following car runs you over.


My common experience with this is: the first car cuts me up close through ignorance or abuse; then the following car sees the dangerous behaviour (perhaps reinforced by my action to veer wider) and passes with much more space given, often a full change to the other side of the road.

I always ride with a rear-view mirror to moderate traffic behaviour, and keep aware of the traffic flows behind.


My experience is to not be there.
I do nearly all of my riding on rural roads. Yes I feel safest in a large bunch. I am more visible.
However, by myself I feel vulnerable. I know how impaired many drivers are medically and through distraction.
Riding further out into the lane can make a driver change lanes if they are paying attention and see you.
If they don't the consequences are grave as evidenced by this thread.
The further out into the lane the greater the chance of a distracted or incompetent fool hitting you at highway speeds.
I'll take the shoulder thanks or 30 - 50 cm from the left edge with dive room.
I too run a mirror on my commuter. I don't always pick up cars about to pass me. It helps though, sure.
Your friend was run down by a criminally incompetent idiot who was not paying attention.
He may have paid more attention if they remained 2 abreast, or he may have still hit him. The fact that he saw them from further back and still ran him down doesn't make me confident
Sorry for your loss. :(

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby Scintilla » Tue May 08, 2018 12:00 am

You ride on country roads, in groups and solo. You know the deal. Of the two images, which is more hazardous, and why? (US image)

Image

I have been touring on rural roads for the past 40 years. The times when I am MOST at risk is always when riding in the lower scenario. It is a deadly set-up.

Ride Wider; Stay Safer!

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby Scintilla » Tue May 08, 2018 12:08 am

uart wrote:Mate that is so shocking, and disgusting, sorry for your lose. :(

Thanks. Last year was a bit tough for many people.

uart wrote:Just out of interest, do you know what excuse the driver claimed for why he ended up hitting him, and what charges did they lay against the driver?

No reasons established by police as far as I have heard. No drugs or alcohol; no phone use (but reading text?); not overtired. Some other distraction I guess. He was driving a work sales vehicle. The reason really does not matter - there is no excuse!

Charge of dangerous driving causing death has been laid. Preliminary hearing scheduled a final court hearing in early August this year.

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby human909 » Tue May 08, 2018 7:32 am

Two things things to add.

There is research that strongly shows riding in groups highly reduces you chance of a rear end collision. From memory the stats from the research was 1 person in a sample of 60 hospitalised from being hit from behind was in a group. (Please correct me if you have the actual research handy.)

I was driving on Mt Buffalo this weekend. I was very glad to see the 3 cyclists I encountered widing wide well into my lane. O ther times I've driven there I've had cyclists gutter hug and then gutter hug even more when I've waited patiently behind them. It makes me cringe for their safety.

For those who don't know Mt Buffalo is narrow, steep and with many tight corners. It has no shoulder to speak of. Trying to fit a bike and a car in the same lane is lunacy so riding far left just puts the cyclist at greater risk.

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby warthog1 » Tue May 08, 2018 9:49 am

Scintilla wrote:You ride on country roads, in groups and solo. You know the deal. Of the two images, which is more hazardous, and why? (US image)

Image

I have been touring on rural roads for the past 40 years. The times when I am MOST at risk is always when riding in the lower scenario. It is a deadly set-up.

Ride Wider; Stay Safer!


40 years ago it may have been safer. Now there are fools driving along staring at their lap half of the time.
Can't miss that facebook post or must answer that text now.
I achieve the space with a weave when there is a car coming toward me.
I don't pick up all of the cars behind me through my mind wanders and I just don't catch them all.
Sure if the road is very quiet I get most.
The 2 cases other than your friend were not the scenario depicted in the picture you posted.
Have a look at the damage on the cars.The black Hyundai from the Macedon death has collected the cyclist in the middle of the car.
Image
Similarly Jason in Bendigo has not been hit at the far left of the vehicle.
Image
Neither were gutter hugging.
There was no evidence of any swerve or braking until after the impact.
I am not advocating gutter hugging but that was not the case here.
They were not seen.
Many drivers simply aren't paying attention.
If you claim the lane on rural roads you increase the chances of being hit by someone who is simply not looking imo.
I have seen so many stupid, incompetent driving errors resulting in fatality in my vocation, I am not relying on the competence of the Australian driving public for my continued existence. I will minimise my exposure by choosing roads with a shoulder where possible and be as visible as I can.
Stay safe everyone. Ride as if every driver is an incompetent fool. A disturbing amount of the time you will be correct.

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby RobertL » Tue May 08, 2018 10:47 am

human909 wrote:Two things things to add.

There is research that strongly shows riding in groups highly reduces you chance of a rear end collision. From memory the stats from the research was 1 person in a sample of 60 hospitalised from being hit from behind was in a group. (Please correct me if you have the actual research handy.)

I was driving on Mt Buffalo this weekend. I was very glad to see the 3 cyclists I encountered widing wide well into my lane. O ther times I've driven there I've had cyclists gutter hug and then gutter hug even more when I've waited patiently behind them. It makes me cringe for their safety.

For those who don't know Mt Buffalo is narrow, steep and with many tight corners. It has no shoulder to speak of. Trying to fit a bike and a car in the same lane is lunacy so riding far left just puts the cyclist at greater risk.



I don't have the reference handy, but it was the number of all bicycle/motor vehicle collisions in South Australia in 2017.

There were a total of 62 collisions. 56 of the cyclist were riding alone. 5 of the cyclists were riding single-file in a group. Only 1 was hit while riding two-abreast in a group.
Image

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby BobtheBuilder » Tue May 08, 2018 11:19 am

It would be good to get more detail, as there may be other factors.
If the number of solo riding hours far exceeds the number of group riding or two-abreast riding hours (as a whole over the year), then the number of collisions/riding hour may still be higher for group rides (I'm not making a suggestion either way).
Additionally, if lots of the solo collisions involve people riding at night without lights and/or drunk, that wouldn't indicate the group riding is safer, rather that being poorly lit or drunk is more dangerous.
I would think that riding in big groups is safer, but I don't think these stats, as they are presented here, can make a case either way.

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby kb » Tue May 08, 2018 1:06 pm

Scintilla wrote:
kb wrote:I find it strange people swerve when doing head checks. I know it’s common as I see it all the time, but is it really that hard to ride in a straight line?

It is a more challenging skill for most people compared with just glancing in a rear-view mirror. Also, I find that I can ride safely along the road all the while keeping a routine glance in the mirror every 15-30 seconds or so. Next-to-no riders will be doing head-checks this frequently.

I routinely pull right-turns and lane-changes to execute such, without even needing to make a head-check. Diligent use of a mirror is a skill to develop, and easier/safer than doing frequent or sustained head-checks. In my case I have a slightly stiff neck on turning right. When I do carry out a good head-check, I do it by looking over my left-shoulder, and often by turning my whole upper body (standing out of the saddle). Different strokes for different folks.

Mirror definitely sounds more convenient and useful. I think head checks are under utilised though, they provide a nice visual heads up for others too - unusual movement and the feeling of being watched :-)
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby fat and old » Tue May 08, 2018 3:36 pm

kb wrote: I think head checks are under utilised though, they provide a nice visual heads up for others too - unusual movement and the feeling of being watched :-)


This cannot be underestimated.

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby warthog1 » Tue May 08, 2018 3:45 pm

BobtheBuilder wrote:It would be good to get more detail, as there may be other factors.
If the number of solo riding hours far exceeds the number of group riding or two-abreast riding hours (as a whole over the year), then the number of collisions/riding hour may still be higher for group rides (I'm not making a suggestion either way).
Additionally, if lots of the solo collisions involve people riding at night without lights and/or drunk, that wouldn't indicate the group riding is safer, rather that being poorly lit or drunk is more dangerous.
I would think that riding in big groups is safer, but I don't think these stats, as they are presented here, can make a case either way.




Anecdotally, with respect to other traffic behaviour, ime I would say it is far safer.
More visible and less bullying behaviour due to the greater numbers and fear of repercussions?.
I've had far more issues from motorised vehicles per km of travel individually.

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby BobtheBuilder » Tue May 08, 2018 6:53 pm

warthog1 wrote:Anecdotally, with respect to other traffic behaviour, ime I would say it is far safer.


That's my feeling too. My point was just that those stats as they are don't provide evidence either way.

fat and old wrote:
kb wrote:the feeling of being watched


This cannot be underestimated.


Totally agree.

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby Scintilla » Thu May 10, 2018 12:59 pm

kb wrote:Mirror definitely sounds more convenient and useful. I think head checks are under utilised though, they provide a nice visual heads up for others too - unusual movement and the feeling of being watched :-)

I always find that my arm boldly extended works very well! I am watching them in the mirror (and mostly they know it as the mirror is visible).

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby Scintilla » Thu May 10, 2018 1:15 pm

warthog1 wrote:
Scintilla wrote:I have been touring on rural roads for the past 40 years. The times when I am MOST at risk is always when riding in the lower scenario. It is a deadly set-up.

Ride Wider; Stay Safer!


40 years ago it may have been safer. Now there are fools driving along staring at their lap half of the time.


I was riding 40 years ago and I still ride just as much today. My experience is that I have far less trouble with close-shaves today than I had back in the early '80s.

warthog1 wrote:The 2 cases other than your friend were not the scenario depicted in the picture you posted.
Have a look at the damage on the cars.The black Hyundai from the Macedon death has collected the cyclist in the middle of the car.....

.....Neither were gutter hugging.
There was no evidence of any swerve or braking until after the impact.

My friend's collision impact was almost exactly the same.

The driver involved was not paying attention. He is up on a 'dangerous driving causing death' charge now.

Yet he apparently claimed to police that he had seen them some distance off. IF he had seen two riding two-abreast he undoubtedly would have acted, have given a fruit and changed lane to pass!!

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby BobtheBuilder » Thu May 10, 2018 3:39 pm

Scintilla wrote:I was riding 40 years ago and I still ride just as much today. My experience is that I have far less trouble with close-shaves today than I had back in the early '80s.


I wasn't riding 40 years ago, but rode all the '90s in Sydney as well as some long-distance touring riding along the east coast in the early 2000s and I've found general driver attitudes less aggressive since then ... which doesn't always mean safer. An idiot buzzing you intentionally is probably less likely to hit you than a well-intentioned idiot checking his facebook feed.

Having lived (and mostly ridden) in remote NT since then, where people give you heaps of room (i.e. move completely over into the oncoming lane or slow right down out of town) it's hard to imagine the stuff people have to put up with in the south-eastern areas.

But anything that gives you room to dive combined with focussing the driver's attention on you as a living being, like the wiggle, the wobble, the arm out, the look around has got to be advantageous. And part of that, IMO, is a mirror, which lets you easily identify drivers who aren't moving over and/or slowing down.

I posted this recently on another thread, but it could be an idea for the cycling community here - posting footage of dangerous driver behaviour in a clear, consistent way with driver number plates prominently displayed. This Aberdeen bloke is an obsessive and sounds about as fun as a wet rag, but I like what he's doing.

If this site or somewhere else could host a section for putting up factual, clear, consistent videos of driver misbehaviour and dangerous driving that could go some way to creating a systematic and credible base of evidence when lobbying as well as good evidence for prosecutions of drivers. A centralised repository of evidence could even be the sort of thing down the track that a motivated legal or activist team could draw upon for more general legal or social activism.


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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby warthog1 » Fri May 11, 2018 10:56 am

Scintilla wrote:
The driver involved was not paying attention. He is up on a 'dangerous driving causing death' charge now.

Yet he apparently claimed to police that he had seen them some distance off. IF he had seen two riding two-abreast he undoubtedly would have acted, have given a fruit and changed lane to pass!!


He may or may not have, I understand your reasoning but I don't give the cretin that much credit. He didn't give enough of a cr@p about your friend's life to look where he was going, whilst presumably travelling at highway speeds toward him. :x :x :x

BobtheBuilder wrote:I wasn't riding 40 years ago, but rode all the '90s in Sydney as well as some long-distance touring riding along the east coast in the early 2000s and I've found general driver attitudes less aggressive since then ... which doesn't always mean safer. An idiot buzzing you intentionally is probably less likely to hit you than a well-intentioned idiot checking his facebook feed.



My point exactly.
On the rural roads here people are going about their normal daily routines, the roads are familiar, the journeys are familiar. Apparently, it is all too easy and you don't need to pay attention whilst driving. A significant portion of it can be spent staring at one's phone.
Place yourself out into the lane here and you increase the chance of being fatally struck.
I was commuting to high school in Melbourne by bicycle in the early 80's. I believe it was safer.
People weren't distracted like they are now.
I see people every day, of all ages and all demographics, staring at their laps whilst driving.
It should be a mandatory loss of licence for phone use whilst driving. A significant custodial sentence for those who injure and kill others by their distraction is more than appropriate.
Dont see it happening anytime soon. :(
Last edited by warthog1 on Fri May 11, 2018 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tim
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby Tim » Fri May 11, 2018 11:35 am

warthog1 wrote:On the rural roads here people are going about their normal daily routines, the roads are familiar, the journeys are familiar. Apparently, it is all too easy and you don't need to pay attention whilst driving. A significant portion of it can be spent staring at one's phone.


Driver inattention really frightens me.
Down my way there is a 50km section of the Princes Hwy between Stratford and Bairnsdale. The road is dead straight. It barely takes a bend over the entire 50km's.
It is one of the State's worst Black-spots. Vicroads is about to spend 15 million installing wire rope barriers.
They have already spent tens and tens of millions on safety improvements.
People still keep driving into trees and oncoming traffic and the death toll rises with monotonous regularity.
How hard is it to drive a car in a straight line? Impossible it would seem.
Thankfully there are better through routes for cycling than this road.

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby warthog1 » Fri May 11, 2018 12:51 pm

Tim wrote:
Driver inattention really frightens me.
Down my way there is a 50km section of the Princes Hwy between Stratford and Bairnsdale. The road is dead straight. It barely takes a bend over the entire 50km's.
It is one of the State's worst Black-spots. Vicroads is about to spend 15 million installing wire rope barriers.
They have already spent tens and tens of millions on safety improvements.
People still keep driving into trees and oncoming traffic and the death toll rises with monotonous regularity.
How hard is it to drive a car in a straight line? Impossible it would seem.
Thankfully there are better through routes for cycling than this road.


Went to this yesterday.
https://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au/st ... h/#slide=2
The state government has spent a shed load upgrading the calder, including the installation of wire rope barriers.
She managed to find a big tree unprotected by wire rope barriers.
I am flabbergasted she came out of that car alive.
Airbags have all gone off. Dead without them I am sure.
Bad luck if you happened to be riding that section of road at that time.

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby ashleygray » Fri May 11, 2018 1:58 pm

Whatever the cause was, This is still a very sad news. My deepest sympathy to the bereaved family. Hope this won't happen again.

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby Thoglette » Fri May 11, 2018 2:10 pm

Tim wrote:How hard is it to drive a car in a straight line? Impossible it would seem.


It turns out that building a long, smooth road in a straight line is a silly idea. Drivers literally fall asleep at the wheel.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby BobtheBuilder » Sat May 12, 2018 8:32 am

More ads like this:




And higher penalties. I think phasing in suspension of licence is worth strong consideration. And driver re-education courses for offenders, rather than merely punitive measures.
Last edited by BobtheBuilder on Sat May 12, 2018 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby BobtheBuilder » Sat May 12, 2018 8:33 am

And highlighting the limits of our awareness. Most of us think we see more than we do.


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Re: Another failure to act and another serious "accident"

Postby mikesbytes » Sat May 12, 2018 1:32 pm

BobtheBuilder wrote:And highlighting the limits of our awareness. Most of us think we see more than we do.



That is spot on
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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