Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

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bychosis
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Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby bychosis » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:37 pm

A few days ago I was riding the Fernleigh Track cycleway, nice to not deal with cars. Anyway, at one point the path crosses a road and has an median island with a rail to hang on to. There was a car coming from my left, around a bend and nothing coming from the right so I continued at a fair clip to the island ready to brake enough that the car could pass before I continued across the road. But the car slowed and then stopped and then allowed me to cross in front, contrary to the road markings. Unusual I thought, a tad annoying as I had nearly stopped at the island, but was able to remain clipped in and cross.

It was a few moments after it occurred that being a late model Volvo it may have been equipped with autonomous emergency braking (AEB) and the car stopped because it thought we were going to collide - would have if I we both had not braked suddenly. Is this the type of situation that the AEB would predict and cut in for? If so, it might be 'fun' riding across in front of cars fitted with this just to make everything fall off the passenger seat. In the future it might be quite possible to cross the road without looking and magically have the cars all stop why you do.

Anyone had experience with AEB or similar?
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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby AdelaidePeter » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:59 pm

bychosis wrote:A few days ago I was riding the Fernleigh Track cycleway, nice to not deal with cars. Anyway, at one point the path crosses a road and has an median island with a rail to hang on to. There was a car coming from my left, around a bend and nothing coming from the right so I continued at a fair clip to the island ready to brake enough that the car could pass before I continued across the road. But the car slowed and then stopped and then allowed me to cross in front, contrary to the road markings. Unusual I thought, a tad annoying as I had nearly stopped at the island, but was able to remain clipped in and cross.

It was a few moments after it occurred that being a late model Volvo it may have been equipped with autonomous emergency braking (AEB) and the car stopped because it thought we were going to collide - would have if I we both had not braked suddenly. Is this the type of situation that the AEB would predict and cut in for?


If there was going to be a crash unless you stopped suddenly, then the AEB (or the driver) probably did the right thing, at least at first. Defensive driving and all that. But a truly smart braking system, like a truly smart driver, would then keep going once it realised you were stopping. So was it AEB? Possibly. Interesting.

bychosis wrote:If so, it might be 'fun' riding across in front of cars fitted with this just to make everything fall off the passenger seat. In the future it might be quite possible to cross the road without looking and magically have the cars all stop why you do.


Actually this has been predicted as a negative consequence of driverless cars - pedestrians will step in front of cars because they know they'll stop. But your example has made me realise there's a flaw in that reasoning: even if all cars are driverless, you might get hit by another bike!

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby g-boaf » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:20 pm

bychosis wrote:Anyone had experience with AEB or similar?


Not myself, but here is a demonstration and explanation of how it works in various scenarios on a Mercedes S63 AMG (similar in E-Class and a few others):

https://youtu.be/SHpBrjIJoMw?t=33m36s

It notices pedestrians, other road users and will begin to brake if it thinks a collision is possible, but will leave it up to the driver until the situation gets critical and then it will slam on the brakes.

I don't know a lot about Volvo, but a quick search brought up this:

https://support.volvocars.com/uk/cars/P ... e801ce49be

Edit: the above seems to be the Volvo system that it relevant. But it doesn't seem to handle crossing traffic.

Also: https://support.volvocars.com/en-CA/car ... e8008f3be6

But again, doesn't mention anything about crossing traffic. Maybe that's a Mercedes only at the moment.

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby human909 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:49 pm

A system that handles crossing traffic is more than just autonomous emergency braking, that is entering the world of driverless cars.

Potential collisions would be being detected left right and centre in normal road travel if the conduct of others wasn't accounted for. (aka them changing course or braking)

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby Kev365428 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:22 pm

We have it on our Kia Sportage, and there is nothing subtle about it.

It leaves it until the last minute, give you an audible warning, then slams the brakes on.

In your scenario I'd say the driver was nervous and just decided to let you cross.

Kev.

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby WyvernRH » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:13 pm

Yes, as a regular on the Fernleigh Track I reckon I know the junction you mean. Quite often of an early morning (my normal time) drivers will stop politely to let you pass thru, totally against the traffic rules (and often to the annoyance of a bogan behind them). Not to be counted on at all but when it happens I always acknowledge with a wave and a smile.

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby bychosis » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:44 pm

WyvernRH wrote:Yes, as a regular on the Fernleigh Track I reckon I know the junction you mean. Quite often of an early morning (my normal time) drivers will stop politely to let you pass thru, totally against the traffic rules (and often to the annoyance of a bogan behind them). Not to be counted on at all but when it happens I always acknowledge with a wave and a smile.

Richard

Think it’s Kalaroo Rd (near the redhead beach access).
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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby duncan16v » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:12 am

Like Kev, we have it on our Subaru Fat Bastard - it doesn't get involved in day-to-day driving and I've only had it activate in anger once in a Bunnings car park where it thought a shrub was an obstacle. It doesn't muck about when it decides to act and slams the brakes on hard.

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby diventare » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:48 am

My Suby Levorg has it. Relating to peds (or riders) on a traffic island, mine does not react, I would offer that it does not calculate trajectories and predict potential impact, it simply reacts to obstacles directly in the way of current travel (ie something stationary directly in front of the car).
To generate the "fun" you'd need to step in front of an oncoming car and hope that it had AEB. Darwinian.
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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby CXCommuter » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:50 am

My experiences with AEB has been similar to the above (on hire cars), it is brutal when it is activated and quite a surprise.
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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby RobertL » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:33 pm

There's a great bit of footage floating around on social media of a Tesla on a highway in the US. There's a bit of traffic, but not too much. The footage is from the dash cam of the Tesla.

All of a sudden, the Tesla starts braking and letting out it's warning beep that it is doing so. The occupants start wondering what is going on. Then the dash cam shows the car in front of the Tesla slamming into the car in front of it.

So the Tesla braking system had detected that the car two cars in front of it was braking and took evasive action while the Tesla driver and the driver of the car in the middle saw nothing.
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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby g-boaf » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:02 pm

diventare wrote:My Suby Levorg has it. Relating to peds (or riders) on a traffic island, mine does not react, I would offer that it does not calculate trajectories and predict potential impact, it simply reacts to obstacles directly in the way of current travel (ie something stationary directly in front of the car).
To generate the "fun" you'd need to step in front of an oncoming car and hope that it had AEB. Darwinian.


I think only relatively few cars have the ability to recognise crossing traffic /pedestrians on sidewalks or islands and be aware to take action.

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby gorilla monsoon » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:55 pm

bychosis wrote:A few days ago I was riding the Fernleigh Track cycleway, nice to not deal with cars. Anyway, at one point the path crosses a road and has an median island with a rail to hang on to. There was a car coming from my left, around a bend and nothing coming from the right so I continued at a fair clip to the island ready to brake enough that the car could pass before I continued across the road. But the car slowed and then stopped and then allowed me to cross in front, contrary to the road markings. Unusual I thought, a tad annoying as I had nearly stopped at the island, but was able to remain clipped in and cross.

It was a few moments after it occurred that being a late model Volvo it may have been equipped with autonomous emergency braking (AEB) and the car stopped because it thought we were going to collide - would have if I we both had not braked suddenly. Is this the type of situation that the AEB would predict and cut in for? If so, it might be 'fun' riding across in front of cars fitted with this just to make everything fall off the passenger seat. In the future it might be quite possible to cross the road without looking and magically have the cars all stop why you do.

Anyone had experience with AEB or similar?


I've had a great deal of experience with both AEB and the Fernleigh Track and if you are describing what I think you are decribing (location and situation) then no, AEB would not have stopped the car. AEB really ony works in direct line of sight and doesn't "look" to the sides.
In other words, you would have needed to have been directly in front of the Volvo.
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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:17 pm

As a driver in many bike races, this tech is a complete PITA. I've had it engage unexpectedly and nearly cause major incident in a bike race.

Whenever i get a vehicle to drive in a race I need to find out how to disable the tech because it can be quite dangerous in a race convoy. If ever we are presented with vehicles that can't disable the tech it will be interesting.

I'm noticing the more modern the vehicle, the worse the vision is for seeing where riders are.

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:22 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:As a driver in many bike races, this tech is a complete PITA. I've had it engage unexpectedly and nearly cause major incident in a bike race.

Whenever i get a vehicle to drive in a race I need to find out how to disable the tech because it can be quite dangerous in a race convoy. If ever we are presented with vehicles that can't disable the tech it will be interesting.

I'm noticing the more modern the vehicle, the worse the vision is for seeing where riders are.


This is the telling bit for me, as line of sight and peripheral vision is more important to me, than some smart braking system! :idea:

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby madmacca » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:02 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:As a driver in many bike races, this tech is a complete PITA. I've had it engage unexpectedly and nearly cause major incident in a bike race.

Whenever i get a vehicle to drive in a race I need to find out how to disable the tech because it can be quite dangerous in a race convoy. If ever we are presented with vehicles that can't disable the tech it will be interesting.

I'm noticing the more modern the vehicle, the worse the vision is for seeing where riders are.


Particularly as Subaru are one of the early adopters on this tech, but also major sponsors of road racing in Australia.

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby BJL » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:33 pm

I can hardly wait for the spate of old farts out there running into the vehicles in front and saying 'I thought this car has AEB, it did yesterday. What day is it? Where am I? The last thing I remember is a probe being shoved up my........., I've been driving since 1949 and good luck finding a better driver than me, I think I just pooed my pants, NURSE!'

Problem is this technology is going to make drivers even more complacent and incompetent than they are now. We're at a point in human history where it seems that the primary purpose of technology is to make humans stupid. I can just imagine the technology trade shows,

'The smartest technology, for the dumbest people'

(I think I missed my calling. I should have been an advertising executive or something) :evil:

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:03 pm

madmacca wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:As a driver in many bike races, this tech is a complete PITA. I've had it engage unexpectedly and nearly cause major incident in a bike race.

Whenever i get a vehicle to drive in a race I need to find out how to disable the tech because it can be quite dangerous in a race convoy. If ever we are presented with vehicles that can't disable the tech it will be interesting.

I'm noticing the more modern the vehicle, the worse the vision is for seeing where riders are.


Particularly as Subaru are one of the early adopters on this tech, but also major sponsors of road racing in Australia.

Subaru are obviously a sponsor of the TDU but they have ended their sponsorship of Cycling Australia and won't be seen in many bike races domestically.

At the National champs we were driving new Honda Civics.
This gives you some idea of the sight lines:
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The sight lines out of the Subarus wasn't too bad in bike races.

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:58 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:As a driver in many bike races, this tech is a complete PITA. I've had it engage unexpectedly and nearly cause major incident in a bike race.

Whenever i get a vehicle to drive in a race I need to find out how to disable the tech because it can be quite dangerous in a race convoy. If ever we are presented with vehicles that can't disable the tech it will be interesting.

I'm noticing the more modern the vehicle, the worse the vision is for seeing where riders are.

Well, don't say I told you so, but...

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/02/concuss ... habi-tour/

Following the end of the stage, RCS Sport confirmed that the accident was caused by the automatics of the Mercedes E300 EMC. The cars are fitted with sensors and the proximity of the riders apparently triggered the feature, causing the crash.

“They were nearby the car, and the car has those sensors that caused it to brake. And it braked,” course director Stefano Allocchio said after the stage, according to Cycling Weekly. “Unfortunately, it’s one of these things. Tonight we will talk to a mechanics to make sure they are deactivated. We don’t to risk this happening again.”

He said that the race organisers will visit Cavendish and his team to discuss the incident.

At this year’s Santos Tour Down Under drivers were warned to turn off the auto-brake feature. Race organizers added written warnings inside the cabins of many of the race vehicles in order to underline the point. Unfortunately, on this occasion that appears not to have been done and Cavendish lost out as a result.

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby bychosis » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:35 am

^ the tech appears to be designed for a distracted driver. A concentrating human will probably always do a better job in abnormal circumstances.
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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby find_bruce » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:39 am

It would seem that the car braked when riders got too close behind it. I fail to see how this is ever a safe or sensible thing to do.

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby hamishm » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:01 am

find_bruce wrote:It would seem that the car braked when riders got too close behind it. I fail to see how this is ever a safe or sensible thing to do.

I agree. Maybe the riders had started to come around it and it braked when it was too close to them?

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby biker jk » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:46 am

hamishm wrote:
find_bruce wrote:It would seem that the car braked when riders got too close behind it. I fail to see how this is ever a safe or sensible thing to do.

I agree. Maybe the riders had started to come around it and it braked when it was too close to them?


The braking occurred before any riders had started to come around the car and certainly before any were in front of the car. Strange.

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:31 am

find_bruce wrote:It would seem that the car braked when riders got too close behind it. I fail to see how this is ever a safe or sensible thing to do.

By the riders or the car?

It's the neutral zone, riders are always right up behind and often either side of the Race Director's car in that zone as it maintains a fairly pedestrian and steady pace.

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Re: Has anyone had experience with Autonomous emergency braking?

Postby find_bruce » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:33 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
find_bruce wrote:It would seem that the car braked when riders got too close behind it. I fail to see how this is ever a safe or sensible thing to do.

By the riders or the car?

It's the neutral zone, riders are always right up behind and often either side of the Race Director's car in that zone as it maintains a fairly pedestrian and steady pace.

Sorry I should have been clearer - I meant its not a safe or sensible thing to program a car to autonomously brake if it is traveling forward & something is too close behind.

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