Stack and reach question.

booge
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Stack and reach question.

Postby booge » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:36 pm

I'm about to drop some money on a Ritchey road logic frameset(while it's heavily discounted), the size 57 stack and reach measurements are almost identical to my current road frame.....is that as good as i'm going to get as far as matching the frames for size??? A few things are slightly different like off top tube measurement (Ritchey 1cm shorter),head tube 5mm longer on the Ritchey. Can't test them in person as no one has them in store.

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RonK
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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby RonK » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:40 pm

Yes, stack and reach is the most accurate way to compare bikes geometries for fit.

Closely matching stack and reach is good - if your are comfortably fitted to your current bike.
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booge
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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby booge » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:45 pm

Yeah it's comfortable but has about 5cm of spacers under the stem which i don't like the look of!

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baabaa
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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby baabaa » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:34 pm

Why worry about how the bike looks?
These frames are gems and as someone who rides a 60cm plus road bikes, have long head tube lengths of around 200 and never cut the steerer tube so just use plenty of spacers. Just grab a heap of different coloured spaces that match the paint and decals for some bling, besides when you are on the bike you don't get to see what is under the stem anyway.

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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby macca33 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:35 pm

If 50mm of spacers are fitted beneath the stem, then I'd argue, on the face of it, that the stack of your frameset is too low for you and/or, you may currently be on the wrong frame...

A proper bike fit may be prudent in your circumstances.

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booge
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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby booge » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:47 pm

Had a professional fit. It was the right frame size, the bike itself was just too low and racy for me. I've looked at the 59cm Ritchey online, they look enormous, super long head tube and the reach is really long and I doubt I'd be on their biggest size at only 6'2". From things I've read from time to time it's much easier to fit a slightly smaller frame than a slightly larger one.

The main reason i'm going steel is I have too much carbon paranoia from Leuscher teknik vids on youtube!.....plus it's a bike you don't see everyday.

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queequeg
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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby queequeg » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:17 pm

I have just gone through this on a custom Ti frame order. On the sizing chart I fell between two sizes. That is, I was on the upper end of the smaller frame, and on the lower end of the larger frame.

When I compared the stack & reach of my existing bikes, I found that they were all fairly similar, even though my frame sizes vary from 56cm to 58cm.

I suggested to the frame builder that going with the larger size would mean a slammed stem, as the stack on the larger frame was pretty much bang on where my current smaller bike is with 25mm of spacers under the stem. After reviewing all my bike fit data and looking at my existing frames, they suggested I go to the smaller frame and use the spacers, simply because it gives far more flexibility on the fit. Given that I couldn't fly to the UK just to have a fit on an actual frame, it was the best we could do. You just have to ignore those who think having a non-slammed stem is a violation of the rules. Use as many spacers as it takes to get your ideal fit (while keeping in mind that usually you can have a max of 50mm under the stem)
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baabaa
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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby baabaa » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:46 pm

At 6-2 I would also be looking at the standover height as well, 835 for the 59 is not such a big bike. The tt e at 575 also looks like you would need a longish stem which works for some people.
You just need to think how you will ride this bike, I ride larger steel frames for long sorta fast and then often poking along rides and make them fit comfortably with stems and set back seatposts. If you what snappy point to point stuff, sure go smaller.

booge
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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby booge » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:54 pm

I don't really get the stand over height thing. Unless someone can enlighten me, why bother with stand over height measurements? Isn't position ON the bike while pedalling the most important thing?

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baabaa
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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby baabaa » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:21 pm


Kronos
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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby Kronos » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:35 pm

booge wrote:I don't really get the stand over height thing. Unless someone can enlighten me, why bother with stand over height measurements? Isn't position ON the bike while pedalling the most important thing?


It is until you need to stand over your bike in an emergency situation. Standover height is a very important thing. If you have to hop out of or onto the saddle you've also got the wrong sized bike. You have to be able to get on and off your bike without bailing out. When its about the difference of going face first into a car or putting on the emergency brakes and using your feet you'll be thankful you have stand over height.

There seems to be a trend of mountain bike riders who think standover is irrelevant. They congregate on forums such as these saying "standover is irrelevant." Come talk to me about how irrelevant it is when you have to bail out or stop incredibly quickly. It's just as relevant as it ever was.

If you can't stand over a bike the bike is simply too big for you.

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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby booge » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:22 pm

Kronos wrote:
booge wrote:I don't really get the stand over height thing. Unless someone can enlighten me, why bother with stand over height measurements? Isn't position ON the bike while pedalling the most important thing?


It is until you need to stand over your bike in an emergency situation. Standover height is a very important thing. If you have to hop out of or onto the saddle you've also got the wrong sized bike. You have to be able to get on and off your bike without bailing out. When its about the difference of going face first into a car or putting on the emergency brakes and using your feet you'll be thankful you have stand over height.

There seems to be a trend of mountain bike riders who think standover is irrelevant. They congregate on forums such as these saying "standover is irrelevant." Come talk to me about how irrelevant it is when you have to bail out or stop incredibly quickly. It's just as relevant as it ever was.

If you can't stand over a bike the bike is simply too big for you.


Based on that, plus stack and reach it would seem the 57cm is the right size. Why would I want the highest possible standover from the 59cm as previously mentioned by another person? I appreciate all of your input but it just doesn't seem that relevant to me, even with all the pages of bike fit info I have from my previous Retul fit...stand over height isn't even a factor and not mentioned/measured at all.

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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby Kronos » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:25 pm

You will come back when you crash into a car or go over a cliff (and hopefully survive) and realise your ways about stand over height.

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baabaa
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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby baabaa » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:45 pm

If you have any doubts about sizes I would give Gary (Theiss) at dirtworks a call, pretty sure that he will give you a clear answer about the sizing. Would also talk to him about the bits you wish to put on the frame, he is a good guy.
As mentioned standover is just one part of it, I guess it is more a traditional thing but if it it didn't matter, why would most of the good companies who sell frameset even bother to put the numbers down on the geo charts?
FWIW I did mention I just prefer larger than smaller, you need to make you own call on this, standover really helps outline what is a max frame size. Also companies like Rivendell are pretty keen to get everyone on bigger frames than what they think they should be riding.
https://www.rivbike.com/pages/fit-sizing-and-position

Most bikes are sold too small. We see it all the time: bars way below the saddle, the rider leaned over 35-degrees with arms straight out as his hands are on the brake hoods. If he took his hands off the bar he'd flop down and smack his nose on the stem. It's not comfortable or correct.

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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby Kronos » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:57 pm

The later part is really just an issue of compact vs. traditional geometry. I removed myself from that equation by riding more traditional frames. You can still get classic geometry on modern bikes if you want it such as on Cannondale CAADs which never adopted your sloping geometry or such aggressive compact geometry. If you have a more traditional geometry your nose wont ever be touching your stem and your size will generally be more accurate also.

Patt0
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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby Patt0 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:17 pm

5 cm of spacers tells me you got the wrong size or wrong style. I wouldnt make the same mistake twice.
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owly
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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby owly » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:21 pm

If the Ritchey is going to require a similar 5cm of spacers, then I'd look elsewhere.

Plenty of steel road frames out there will have a good stack/reach ratio to suit. You just have to look around online at geo charts.
Being able to look at a frame triangle pic and have an idea is helpful also.

Ritchey: long and low.
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booge
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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby booge » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:02 pm

owly wrote:If the Ritchey is going to require a similar 5cm of spacers, then I'd look elsewhere.

Plenty of steel road frames out there will have a good stack/reach ratio to suit. You just have to look around online at geo charts.
Being able to look at a frame triangle pic and have an idea is helpful also.

Ritchey: long and low.

Yeah, I think I agree. I may hold off til the trek emonda sl6 is on sale, the Geo seems to be suitable. My current frame was purchased when I had no idea about race frames, endurance frames etc.....I got the race frame (it looked cool).

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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby Derny Driver » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:12 pm

Kronos wrote:
booge wrote:I don't really get the stand over height thing. Unless someone can enlighten me, why bother with stand over height measurements? Isn't position ON the bike while pedalling the most important thing?




You have to be able to get on and off your bike without bailing out. When its about the difference of going face first into a car or putting on the emergency brakes and using your feet you'll be thankful you have stand over height.

I swear you are just making stuff up mate

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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby Kronos » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:45 pm

You see what happens. Go and ask a professional about standover height. There's a safety reason for it. I'm not here telling you what to ride, I'm telling you its not a good idea. You can call it made up all you like but one of these days if you can't touch the ground on your bike you'll be stuffed and don't tell me I didn't warn you. I could follow your logic and ride a larger bike, and one of these days an emergency situation will happen. It doesn't matter how good of a bike rider you think you are to me either, so save it. It will matter at the most important time and you won't have any.

You might be one of those vertically challenged people who is always going to struggle finding a good bike with the right standover. Thankfully I'm not one of those people. However, some people Especially on a full suspension bike will have problems with standover. Moreover, they will have even more problems due to the factors involved in suspension travel. The longer the length of the travel the more problems people like that will have. Among other things more travel leads to a higher bottom bracket, head tube, top tube and etc. It's not really an excuse though.

You need to find a bike that you can standover adequately over the top tube. It's not even really a question in bicycle sense its a matter of fact reality to anyone with a shred of common sense and I don't particularly feel like debating it further on a Saturday night so I'm just gonna say this. It doesn't really matter if its a quarter of an inch or an inch whatever. It's a matter of fact safety issue if you don't have any standover height. If you can't keep your ego in check and ride a child or woman sized bike because you're too proud, one of these days you're going to lose whats between your legs or worse and don't say I never said anything.

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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby Derny Driver » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:21 pm

Kronos wrote:There's a safety reason for it.... I could follow your logic and ride a larger bike, and one of these days an emergency situation will happen...

You might be one of those vertically challenged people .....Especially on a full suspension bike will have problems with standover. Moreover, they will have even more problems due to the factors involved in suspension travel. The longer the length of the travel the more problems.....

You need to find a bike that you can standover adequately over the top tube. ... ....It's a matter of fact safety issue if you don't have any standover height. If you can't keep your ego in check and ride a child or woman sized bike because you're too proud....

You do realise that the OP is asking about a road frame?
So in an emergency on the road, what you do is unclip both feet, slide forward off the seat onto the top tube and place both feet on the ground?
Maybe we need a thread on what to do in an emergency. Pretty sure its keep your bum on the seat and unclip one foot.
To get on and off my bike i do not step over the top tube. To get on i throw my right leg over and clip straight in the pedal. Then i push on it, sit on the seat, and clip the left in as i roll. To dismount I unclip my left foot and place it on the ground. My right foot is clipped in to the pedal at the 6 oclock position. I then unclip it and move my leg behind the seat and onto the ground. At no stage am i ever sitting on the top tube with both feet on the ground.
On this forum I usually only comment on topics I have some expertise in. Usually but not alway. I have made no comment to the sizing question because i am not an expert. I suspect you arent either. If someone with some bike fitting expertise wants to enlighten us on whether standover height is important then Im all ears. I suspect it isnt but happy to be proven wrong.

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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby Kronos » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:31 pm

You have one less option, you can try to clip out and bail but actually you're being condescending and missing the point. Yeah there have been times I've had to stop quickly and your legs can actually help with that. You won't get the point because on top of that you're actually also riding a bike with the wrong geometry for your body. For a few your top tube is probably too long, your seat post is probably all the way down, your crank arms are probably too long, and you probably haven't or can't have done anything about it as a result. Everything on a bike has a knock on effect so just get a bike that fits you properly next time OK?

I'll put it this way, you don't know what you're talking about so I'm going to stop here and save you grace.

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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby eeksll » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:04 pm

@kronos I am a bit confused, are you saying you can put your feet down to actually stop yourself? or prevent yourself from being knackerd?

a smaller frame would certainly help in this respect. I can't see the old frames with the horizontal top tubes helping. Sloping top tubes, might work ok at some point but not at the headtube, epsecially for smaller frames.

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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby Kronos » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:26 pm

eeksll wrote:@kronos I am a bit confused, are you saying you can put your feet down to actually stop yourself? or prevent yourself from being knackerd?


Both really, if you're coming up to a crossing or whatever and something happens its another braking force especially with rim brakes. There's some contention for the use of disc brakes for better stopping and yeah... Not knackering yourself is actually beneficial also.

eeksll wrote: A smaller frame would certainly help in this respect. I can't see the old frames with the horizontal top tubes helping. Sloping top tubes, might work ok at some point but not at the headtube, epsecially for smaller frames.


Regardless of the facts of a top tube sloping, standover height must be measured for a horizontal top tube. As I said above if your top tube standover is incorrect, then the length of the top tube will be wrong as bigger bikes also have longer top tubes. You can't correct this beyond a shorter steam without starting to affecting your turning and making things overly twitchy. Your seat tube will be wrong, and you may well have too much seatpost in your seat tube. This runs the risk of cracking your seat tube. Your crank arms may also be the wrong size in relation to the length of your leg and you may not be able to pedal correctly and so on and so forth ad nausea.

It's not just a random figure taken for fun, it has a knock on effect on just about every bike component on your bike. The short and the long of it is that if your standover height is that far out of range that you can't stand over your frame then you have the wrong frame size to begin with.

This is not just a bunch of random guff I've written here for the fun of it, yes it does matter.
Last edited by Kronos on Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Derny Driver
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Re: Stack and reach question.

Postby Derny Driver » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:10 pm

Kronos wrote:
eeksll wrote:@kronos I am a bit confused, are you saying you can put your feet down to actually stop yourself? or prevent yourself from being knackerd?


Both really, if you're coming up to a crossing or whatever and something happens its another braking force especially with rim brakes. There's some contention for the use of disc brakes for better stopping and yeah... Not knackering yourself is actually beneficial also..

So you are saying that you need to be able to put both feet on the ground to slow yourself down. Brakes are not enough braking force, you need the feet as well. Unclip and slide the cleats on the tar to slow down. Really?

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