1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

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Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:45 pm

Campag mechanical ergo levers all the way for me. Intuitive to use (the hand movement/rotation is the same way the derailleur moves) and I've always been able to change front and rear at same time without issue.

I never liked the gear change levers with hand movements going the same direction to do quite different things but I could manage Shimano's levers way better than SRAM's. SRAM's mechanical single/double click did my head in when using it. Just when you really needed to shift one way when under pressure you'd find yourself in way too big or too small a gear. Too prone to error. I'd only ride SRAM or Shimano now if it was full electric set up.

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby kb » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:05 pm

WyvernRH wrote:
Comedian wrote:I argue that's one of the reasons Shimano pushed so hard to electric shifting. Their mechanical system was difficult or impossible for people with small hands to push that big lever, and to use the brake lever effectively. They couldn't really change it, because there was nowhere to go, so, di2 was the fix. I'm sure you'll all be along to tell me how wrong I am shortly.. :mrgreen:


Who are all these people with small hands who have such problems? None of the ladies of my acquaintance have had any shifting or braking problems with Shimano mechanical levers once setup (nor braking while shifting Mr Kronos :wink: )
Maybe I only know women with big hands? :P

Richard

I have some difficulty changing to a lower gear in the drops.
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby eeksll » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:20 pm

kb wrote:
WyvernRH wrote:
Comedian wrote:I argue that's one of the reasons Shimano pushed so hard to electric shifting. Their mechanical system was difficult or impossible for people with small hands to push that big lever, and to use the brake lever effectively. They couldn't really change it, because there was nowhere to go, so, di2 was the fix. I'm sure you'll all be along to tell me how wrong I am shortly.. :mrgreen:


Who are all these people with small hands who have such problems? None of the ladies of my acquaintance have had any shifting or braking problems with Shimano mechanical levers once setup (nor braking while shifting Mr Kronos :wink: )
Maybe I only know women with big hands? :P

Richard

I have some difficulty changing to a lower gear in the drops.


same here.

OTH I almost always double shift when going to a higher gear when in the drops on campag shifters

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby ValleyForge » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:35 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Campag mechanical ergo levers all the way for me. Intuitive to use (the hand movement/rotation is the same way the derailleur moves) and I've always been able to change front and rear at same time without issue.

Absolutely agree. But unforgiving wrt cable adjustment.
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Derny Driver » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:03 pm

WyvernRH wrote:
Maybe I only know women with big hands? :P
Richard

"I met her in a club down in North Soho,
Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like cherry cola ...."
:? :shock: :D

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Duck! » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:50 pm

Comedian wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:
Duck! wrote:The problem that existed, from SRAM's technical POV, was that the other manufacturers had/have patents on various design features to stop others completely copying them. In order to enter the road component market SRAM had to come up with something different.



Same with Microshift, their solution being to put 2 levers behind the brake lever. If you want to talk about crummy ergonomics that's a great example. They do work well, but the placement of the small lever in particular is very poor compared to SRAM or Shimano.


I argue that's one of the reasons Shimano pushed so hard to electric shifting. Their mechanical system was difficult or impossible for people with small hands to push that big lever, and to use the brake lever effectively. They couldn't really change it, because there was nowhere to go, so, di2 was the fix. I'm sure you'll all be along to tell me how wrong I am shortly.. :mrgreen:

Yep, you're wrong (and right about being called out on it. :mrgreen: ) Shimano have had reach adjustable levers since about 2000, starting with the 3300 series Sora and 2200 (the sub-Sora group level now named Claris), and subsequently trickling up, firstly with "non-series" R600 9-sp. then R700 10-sp. levers, sitting roughly parallel to 6500 & 6600 Ultegra respectively, then into the "proper" groupsets. By the time Di2 was launched, the then-current 5600 105, which still had a year of its production run remaining, was the only group remaining that had non-adjustable levers.

Shimano didn't "push so hard to electric shifting"; it was always, and remains a premium product, beyond the reach (no pun intended) of many cyclists. They weren't the first to develop electronic shifting systems; Mavic were some 15 years ahead with their Mektronic system. Campagnolo weren't far behind Mavic with initial steps toward what eventually became EPS. I first became aware of Shimano developing electronics soon after I entered the industry in mid-2004, when they began prototyping an electronic version based on the then-current 7800 Dura-Ace. How long before that they'd been working on it I do not know. Shimano just had the industrial clout to get a successful system out first.
Last edited by Duck! on Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Comedian » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:33 pm

Duck! wrote:
Comedian wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:

Same with Microshift, their solution being to put 2 levers behind the brake lever. If you want to talk about crummy ergonomics that's a great example. They do work well, but the placement of the small lever in particular is very poor compared to SRAM or Shimano.


I argue that's one of the reasons Shimano pushed so hard to electric shifting. Their mechanical system was difficult or impossible for people with small hands to push that big lever, and to use the brake lever effectively. They couldn't really change it, because there was nowhere to go, so, di2 was the fix. I'm sure you'll all be along to tell me how wrong I am shortly.. :mrgreen:

Yep, you're wrong (and right about being called out on it. :mrgren: ) Shimano have had reach adjustable levers since about 2000, starting with the 3300 series Sora and 2200 (the sub-Sora group level now named Claris), and subsequently trickling up, firstly with "non-series" R600 9-sp. then R700 10-sp. levers, sitting roughly parallel to 6500 & 6600 Ultegra respectively, then into the "proper" groupsets. By the time Di2 was launched, the then-current 5600 105, which still had a year of its production run remaining, was the only group remaining that had non-adjustable levers.

Shimano didn't "push so hard to electric shifting"; it was always, and remains a premium product, beyond the reach (no pun intended) of many cyclists. They weren't the first to develop electronic shifting systems; Mavic were some 15 years ahead with their Mektronic system. Campagnolo weren't far behind Mavic with initial steps toward what eventually became EPS. I first became aware of Shimano developing electronics soon after I entered the industry in mid-2004, when they began prototyping an electronic version based on the then-current 7800 Dura-Ace. How long before that they'd been working on it I do not know. Shimano just had the industrial clout to get a successful system out first.

Yeah... but the reach adjustment shims don't work. The problem was if you had the shims.. yes they could reach the brakes from the drops, but the travel was marginal to get enough braking force because of the rubbishy brakes. And then it wasn't super comfy for them from the hoods. Without the adjusters they could have the brakes set so they were comfortable on the hoods, but then couldn't reach them on the drops, or they could reach them on the drops but not so comfortable on the hoods and with marginal brake force. And either way swinging that lever was too hard.

I was fine though.. I have big hands. :D

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Comedian » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:49 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Campag mechanical ergo levers all the way for me. Intuitive to use (the hand movement/rotation is the same way the derailleur moves) and I've always been able to change front and rear at same time without issue.

I never liked the gear change levers with hand movements going the same direction to do quite different things but I could manage Shimano's levers way better than SRAM's. SRAM's mechanical single/double click did my head in when using it. Just when you really needed to shift one way when under pressure you'd find yourself in way too big or too small a gear. Too prone to error. I'd only ride SRAM or Shimano now if it was full electric set up.

I love my campy mechanical. I also remember a bike shop employee telling me "Chicks dig campy"... because they could bloody operate the gears and stop the bike I guess...

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby WyvernRH » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:10 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
WyvernRH wrote:
Maybe I only know women with big hands? :P
Richard

"I met her in a club down in North Soho,
Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like cherry cola ...."
:? :shock: :D


'You are just a very naughty boy....'

Richard

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:25 am

Safe operable lever reach for those with smaller hands is definitely an issue and different systems are more/less suitable in that regard. It also depends on the shape/form of your handlebars, some bars make the problem worse while others can help make the lever reach better.

This is the sort of thing a good bike fitter and shop should be looking at. Anything that makes you feel uneasy or anxious about using brakes and gears is bad on a bike. Using brakes and gears should be something that ends up being a completely natural all-but unconscious action, not something that you have to think about.

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby RonK » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:47 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Campag mechanical ergo levers all the way for me. Intuitive to use (the hand movement/rotation is the same way the derailleur moves) and I've always been able to change front and rear at same time without issue.

I've used predominately Campy for many years and always considered ErgoPower shifters to be ergonomically superior to any other mechanical control (yes,including Shimano).

But I took to SRAM because it was the only brand that offered the easy cross-compatibility between road and MTB components I needed for my bike packing build at the time.

I'm not using premium components either, just entry-level Apex controls and a GX driveline. It runs quietly and shifts smoothly and noiselessly.

Certainly I had my reservations, but kept an open mind and adapted to double tap within a few rides. I now find it utterly intuitive and dare I say it - even better ergonomically than Campy.
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Jmuzz » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:55 am

I can't feel any way accidentally braking while shifting could be possible.
You push it sideways with fingertips, hands are not even around the lever unless actually braking, in which case an advanced rider can downshift while braking if that second is important, that action would need big hands depending on angle.

Small hands? Some do multi shift with longer movement. A poorly tuned deraileur may have made you feel that you had to move beyond the first click to get a shift?

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby eeksll » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:26 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Safe operable lever reach for those with smaller hands is definitely an issue and different systems are more/less suitable in that regard. It also depends on the shape/form of your handlebars, some bars make the problem worse while others can help make the lever reach better.

This is the sort of thing a good bike fitter and shop should be looking at. Anything that makes you feel uneasy or anxious about using brakes and gears is bad on a bike. Using brakes and gears should be something that ends up being a completely natural all-but unconscious action, not something that you have to think about.


the paddle behind the brake lever on all the systems also reduce the amount of lever pull space on the brake.

The paddle shifters look like they could slide down the side of the bars to mitigate this, but doesn't seem to work that way.

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:59 pm

While using different gear and braking levers can take a little getting used to, you do adapt.

My worst experience was when I was riding someone else's loaner bike during a mountainous ride in California one day. On the first particularly steep section when my speed got up very quickly and I needed to wash off speed for the rapidly approaching corner, it was not the moment to readjust to the fact the brakes were cabled to the opposite hand I was used to.

Instead of a decent handful of front and nicely modulated rear braking, it was the other way round which of course didn't slow me down much. The instant realisation and time to change brake modulation lost me too much time and so I then had to choose which pair of giant redwoods I would attempt to fly between as I went over the edge.

It's moments like that which make you realise how natural and instinctive your use of a certain set up becomes.

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby ValleyForge » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:27 pm

eeksll wrote:the paddle behind the brake lever on all the systems also reduce the amount of lever pull space on the brake.


No. Campagnolo shift levers swing out of the way at full brake lever travel.
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby skull » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:33 pm

I've been on sram for 8 years now. Those complaining about them not shifting properly need to stop servicing your bikes yourself and get someone who knows what they are doing. Far superior over shimano.

As for 1X on a rodie, yeah interesting.

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Derny Driver » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:58 pm

skull wrote:I've been on sram for 8 years now. Those complaining about them not shifting properly need to stop servicing your bikes yourself and get someone who knows what they are doing.....

Warning :roll: Incoming attacks :shock: Seek shelter immediately !! :D :P

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Duck! » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:10 pm

ValleyForge wrote:
eeksll wrote:the paddle behind the brake lever on all the systems also reduce the amount of lever pull space on the brake.

The paddle shifters look like they could slide down the side of the bars to mitigate this, but doesn't seem to work that way.


No. Campagnolo shift levers swing out of the way at full brake lever travel.

Depends a bit on individual model, but pretty much all levers are canted outward to some extent to allow the paddle to pass alongside the bar.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby baabaa » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:43 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
skull wrote:I've been on sram for 8 years now. Those complaining about them not shifting properly need to stop servicing your bikes yourself and get someone who knows what they are doing.....

Warning :roll: Incoming attacks :shock: Seek shelter immediately !! :D :P


Well I think it is time for someone to make the call so....

Bar End Shifters are the true princes of moving gears from one cog or chainring to another.
## pulls out and pats my 1970's -1980's suntour power shift barcons and have them purr back at me while resting in my hand ##

( extra points are added as any bog ordinary barcon will work on x1 setups and will never give you an over-the-handle bar-foul-up while braking)

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby NASHIE » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:13 pm

Duck! wrote:
ValleyForge wrote:
eeksll wrote:the paddle behind the brake lever on all the systems also reduce the amount of lever pull space on the brake.

The paddle shifters look like they could slide down the side of the bars to mitigate this, but doesn't seem to work that way.


No. Campagnolo shift levers swing out of the way at full brake lever travel.

Depends a bit on individual model, but pretty much all levers are canted outward to some extent to allow the paddle to pass alongside the bar.


And probably time for brake adjustment if your pulling that much lever.

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby eeksll » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:53 pm

Duck! wrote:
ValleyForge wrote:
No. Campagnolo shift levers swing out of the way at full brake lever travel.

Depends a bit on individual model, but pretty much all levers are canted outward to some extent to allow the paddle to pass alongside the bar.


hmmm, maybe its because I use a bar where the drops flare out wider then plus some bar tape? I couldnt get it to work with the 5600 shifters.

Campag dont have shims to adjust lever reach, however I had considered shimming it the DIY way.

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Duck! » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:00 pm

Your bar shape would contribute to lack of clearance. My almost identical 6600s are fine on a "normal" bar. Although as suggested above, if they're pulling that close to the bar, they need adjusting.....

Campag do have spacer blocks, but they're to move the levers out for people with enormous hands! I've never had to fit them.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Lukeyboy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:23 am

Hahahaha. Bunch of whine bags. Go ride a track bike :)

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby eeksll » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:29 am

NASHIE wrote:And probably time for brake adjustment if your pulling that much lever.


Its more knowing I have that extra pull, to give me confidence in using the shim / reach adjust.

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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby g-boaf » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:50 am

Lukeyboy wrote:Hahahaha. Bunch of whine bags. Go ride a track bike :)


Agreed, off to the Tourmalet for you with your track bike. :wink: They are good fun to ride.

Actually, on that note, a guy did ride Haute Route Dolomites last year on a single-speed bike. :shock: He got a lot of publicity.

Some of the climbs he encountered: Passo Pennes, Rennon Plateau, Lazfons, Brixen-Plancios (17km at 7%), Passo delle Erbe, Passo Gardena, Passo Sella, Passo san Pellegrino, Passo Valles, Passo Lavaze, Passo Costalunga, Passo Fedaia, Tiser, San Boldo

It would have been fun on the single speed up Passo delle Erbe, that was pretty long and steep in places, Lavaze was pretty bad near the top as well.
Last edited by g-boaf on Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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