Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

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trailgumby
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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby trailgumby » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:32 pm

g-boaf wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Bill wrote this on sydney cyclist today;
For those who may be interested, I've been visiting James. He is generally in good spirits but looks like he may not be able to use his right arm again - he is/was a dentist. The nerves were severed and his arm lies limp in a sling. His neck was broken in numerous places which wasn't mentioned earlier, or in the various articles that were mentioned in this thread. He has had recent operations to try and reconnect nerves and the results are still out.

Thankfully if it wasn't for the meticulous and thoughtful care from the paramedics who initially arrived and stabilised his neck with metal rods before he was moved, he would have been in a wheelchair for life. As it is now, he is walking around and has limited use of his right leg beyond about 10˚ of movement. That should improve, and he threatens me that if I don't get fitter now I won't be able to keep up with him on his first ride back...
Terrible

Unfortunately my comment about the article focusing on the details of the motor vehicle while not mentioning the status of the injured rider stands


Agreed, it's like the badly hurt rider doesn't matter at all.

Oh,my. That is absolutely heartbreaking. :cry:

Unfortunately, in the commercial media at least, the badly hurt rider doesn't matter. Victims are divided into worthy and unworthy victims. Unworthy victims are treated as caricatures and dehumanised, their suffering passed over or barely mentioned. Worthy victims are given the full humanising and sympathetic treatment.

What drives this as far as cyclists are concerned are the commercial imperatives of publishing in the mass media. Makers of expensive cars are advertisers, who spend lots of money with publishers who support their businesses. Cyclists are a threat to those businesses, and treating them too sympathetically, especially where the conflict is as stark as this, could offend those advertisers.

Favouring cycling and cycling infrastructure too much is a threat to the business of the motor industry, as it will make the use of motor cars less relevant. Therefore the mass media generally, and Channel7 and News Corp in particular, work to marginalise the democratic activity of cycling, applying a propaganda model to their coverage of any cycling related issues. Regrettably, it is quite effective.

I'm working my way through Noam Chomksy's book "Manufacturing Consent - the Political Economy of the Mass Media" - it's quite an eye opener.

I'm quite grateful for Clover Moore being so effective at sticking her finger in their eye. News Corp hates her.

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby queequeg » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:45 pm

antigee wrote:
queequeg wrote:The female driver has now (finally) been charged.

https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/news/news ... w9MQ%3D%3D


according to above was due in court today


Yep, just a mention by police according to the court list, so she probably wasn't even required to attend. However, I can see a couple of pay-walled articles showing up in Google from today, so there might be some news floating around.
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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:52 pm

trailgumby, there is nothing I can add to your post, if only the general public understood it like that.

I don't recall where the comment is that I'm discussing here - it was that the [supercar] would under-steer. Now I own a normal family car and I cannot detect any fault like under-steer or any of the other faults mentioned when driving safely and within the law and that would be true of the supercar when driven safely and within the law. It is clear to me that when they write comments like that after a road test (not track) then they are clearly riding dangerously
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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby caneye » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:51 pm

queequeg wrote:Yep, just a mention by police according to the court list, so she probably wasn't even required to attend. However, I can see a couple of pay-walled articles showing up in Google from today, so there might be some news floating around.


you're right. it looks like she was a no-show.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... court.html

she hasn't enter a plea yet.

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby human909 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:13 am

mikesbytes wrote:I don't recall where the comment is that I'm discussing here - it was that the [supercar] would under-steer. Now I own a normal family car and I cannot detect any fault like under-steer or any of the other faults mentioned when driving safely and within the law and that would be true of the supercar when driven safely and within the law.


I have to disagree there. Understeer is quite readily detectable in most normal cars if pushed firmly into corners. Most street cars have understeer engineered into them because it is safer (and happens to be a convenient outcome for typical front engined, FWDs.)

And yes you can quite safely push a car firmly into a corner within the law. Sweeping bends with poor visibility on narrow roads, less room to claim that it is safe. Wide multi lane sweeping corner with no other vehicles around, yep quite safe. (EG; on one of my frequent car trips a 100kph freeway ends with traffic lights and a left turn onto an 80kph road. Plenty of space and good sight lines.)


(In case you are wondering about my approach to driving, i generally drive close to a grandma that a hoon. I drive in a cautious and fuel efficient manner. But if there is a wide bend with good visibility I'm not going to scrub off speed unnecessarily if it is safe. Not to much different to cycling, most cyclists try to conserve momentum when going down hills.)

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:45 pm

human909 wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:I don't recall where the comment is that I'm discussing here - it was that the [supercar] would under-steer. Now I own a normal family car and I cannot detect any fault like under-steer or any of the other faults mentioned when driving safely and within the law and that would be true of the supercar when driven safely and within the law.


I have to disagree there. Understeer is quite readily detectable in most normal cars if pushed firmly into corners. Most street cars have understeer engineered into them because it is safer (and happens to be a convenient outcome for typical front engined, FWDs.)

And yes you can quite safely push a car firmly into a corner within the law. Sweeping bends with poor visibility on narrow roads, less room to claim that it is safe. Wide multi lane sweeping corner with no other vehicles around, yep quite safe. (EG; on one of my frequent car trips a 100kph freeway ends with traffic lights and a left turn onto an 80kph road. Plenty of space and good sight lines.)


(In case you are wondering about my approach to driving, i generally drive close to a grandma that a hoon. I drive in a cautious and fuel efficient manner. But if there is a wide bend with good visibility I'm not going to scrub off speed unnecessarily if it is safe. Not to much different to cycling, most cyclists try to conserve momentum when going down hills.)

The road that they are using, has poor visibility on most corners. Possibly yet another example how Melbourne is so much better for cycling than Sydney
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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby hunch » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:36 pm

I'd imagine this is the context of the McLaren understeering in this Wheels test.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/mclaren-570s-spider-review

Typical fwd low speed plough would be harshly commented upon in a quickish mid engined twin turbo car review...it does seem there's a history of doing dumb stuff being permitted, if not condoned by this vehicle distributor. The scenery there at least doesn't appear to be Kuringai.

Daily Mail, the usual accuracy with council chambers now a courthouse. :roll:

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby Zippy7 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:43 pm

(NOT) Funny how the news.com.au articles/links state "allegedly hit a cyclist"
Of course they would not want the truth to hurt one of their own.
After all, news.com.au is owned by the same organisation that was guilty of phone hacking not all that long ago...
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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby Thoglette » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:49 pm

human909 wrote:I have to disagree there. Understeer is quite readily detectable in most normal cars if pushed firmly into corners. Most street cars have understeer engineered into them because it is safer (and happens to be a convenient outcome for typical front engined, FWDs.)

And yes you can quite safely push a car firmly into a corner within the law.

+1 on both counts.

I doubt more than 1 in 10 people have driven a car that doesn't understeer like a pig and so think it's "normal" behaviour.

Certain freeway on ramps come to mind but a closed circuit makes it a whole pile easier and safer. (I am a lapsed member of the local race track & ex-CAMS competition license holder )
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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby RobertL » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:57 am

I doubt more than 1 in 10 people have driven a car that doesn't understeer like a pig and so think it's "normal" behaviour.


I used to drive a clapped-out mid-70s Toyota Corona station wagon back in the late 80s. It suffered from awful plough-on understeer at any reasonable cornering speed, before lurching instantly into a neck-snapping oversteer at somewhere approximating the apex.

Good times...
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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby g-boaf » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:02 pm

hunch wrote:I'd imagine this is the context of the McLaren understeering in this Wheels test.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/mclaren-570s-spider-review

Typical fwd low speed plough would be harshly commented upon in a quickish mid engined twin turbo car review...it does seem there's a history of doing dumb stuff being permitted, if not condoned by this vehicle distributor. The scenery there at least doesn't appear to be Kuringai.

Daily Mail, the usual accuracy with council chambers now a courthouse. :roll:


Understeer on one of those (especially if they have the typical McLaren brake steer system of 12C, 650S, 720S) would be at extreme speeds. Those are very fast in corners.

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby find_bruce » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:33 pm

RobertL wrote:I used to drive a clapped-out mid-70s Toyota Corona station wagon back in the late 80s. It suffered from awful plough-on understeer at any reasonable cornering speed, before lurching instantly into a neck-snapping oversteer at somewhere approximating the apex.

Good times...

If you look at the McLaren design brief, as well as cornering better than a Toyota Corona station wagon, it includes the car must
  • out accelerate a datsun 120y
  • be safer than a ford pinto
  • be more stylish than a lada niva

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby Duck! » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:27 pm

human909 wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:I don't recall where the comment is that I'm discussing here - it was that the [supercar] would under-steer. Now I own a normal family car and I cannot detect any fault like under-steer or any of the other faults mentioned when driving safely and within the law and that would be true of the supercar when driven safely and within the law.


I have to disagree there. Understeer is quite readily detectable in most normal cars if pushed firmly into corners. Most street cars have understeer engineered into them because it is safer (and happens to be a convenient outcome for typical front engined, FWDs.)

And yes you can quite safely push a car firmly into a corner within the law. Sweeping bends with poor visibility on narrow roads, less room to claim that it is safe. Wide multi lane sweeping corner with no other vehicles around, yep quite safe. (EG; on one of my frequent car trips a 100kph freeway ends with traffic lights and a left turn onto an 80kph road. Plenty of space and good sight lines.)


(In case you are wondering about my approach to driving, i generally drive close to a grandma that a hoon. I drive in a cautious and fuel efficient manner. But if there is a wide bend with good visibility I'm not going to scrub off speed unnecessarily if it is safe. Not to much different to cycling, most cyclists try to conserve momentum when going down hills.)

Indeed, my previous Subaru Outback ('98 model) could be quite understeery in certain situations, but particularly noticeable on roundabouts with the quick transition from left turning on the entry to right turning to go around, and that wasn't anywhere near naughty speeds. My current, slightly later Outback still does it, but less dramatically.
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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby g-boaf » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:24 pm

RobertL wrote:
I doubt more than 1 in 10 people have driven a car that doesn't understeer like a pig and so think it's "normal" behaviour.


I used to drive a clapped-out mid-70s Toyota Corona station wagon back in the late 80s. It suffered from awful plough-on understeer at any reasonable cornering speed, before lurching instantly into a neck-snapping oversteer at somewhere approximating the apex.

Good times...



Many cars of those times had very questionable handling. Some even into the 80s had nasty handling traits. I'm thinking of a rather sharply shaped vehicle from a quite large auto manufacturer... Diabolical, death trap, treacherous, "the most frightening car we've tested in a long time" etc, various terms used to describe that turbocharged thing.

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby Scintilla » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:27 pm

queequeg wrote:
antigee wrote:
queequeg wrote:The female driver has now (finally) been charged.

https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/news/news ... w9MQ%3D%3D


according to above was due in court today


Yep, just a mention by police according to the court list, so she probably wasn't even required to attend. However, I can see a couple of pay-walled articles showing up in Google from today, so there might be some news floating around.

BN viewpoint:

https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/newsr ... ive-smash/

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:18 pm

Scintilla wrote:
queequeg wrote:
antigee wrote:
according to above was due in court today


Yep, just a mention by police according to the court list, so she probably wasn't even required to attend. However, I can see a couple of pay-walled articles showing up in Google from today, so there might be some news floating around.

BN viewpoint:

https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/newsr ... ive-smash/


It is clear from these published reports that during some tests the vehicles have been driven very fast on public roads. Fast enough for the spoilers to automatically deploy during high speed braking
At what speed do the spoilers automatically deploy?
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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby Scott_C » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:13 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
Scintilla wrote:
queequeg wrote:
Yep, just a mention by police according to the court list, so she probably wasn't even required to attend. However, I can see a couple of pay-walled articles showing up in Google from today, so there might be some news floating around.

BN viewpoint:

https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/newsr ... ive-smash/


It is clear from these published reports that during some tests the vehicles have been driven very fast on public roads. Fast enough for the spoilers to automatically deploy during high speed braking
At what speed do the spoilers automatically deploy?

From the manual (search for Airbrake or find page 2.35) it deploys at speeds above 150kph.

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby duncanm » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:25 pm



wow - talk about packed full of speculation and innuendo!

The hypocrisy is amusing:

Recreational driving on public roads = bad
Recreational cycling on public roads = good

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby duncanm » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:31 pm

Scott_C wrote:From the manual (search for Airbrake or find page 2.35) it deploys at speeds above 150kph.

not quite.

only deploys at > 150km/h if "Aero" setting is off.

If the "Aero" setting is on, then "The Airbrake is deployed and moves dynamically, dependent on the vehicle's requirements. This enhances vehicle stability with increased aerodynamic drag. The Airbrake will raise at any vehicle speed"... then two pages of description.

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby biker jk » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:20 pm

duncanm wrote:


wow - talk about packed full of speculation and innuendo!

The hypocrisy is amusing:

Recreational driving on public roads = bad
Recreational cycling on public roads = good


That's a complete misrepresentation of the article. Testing high speed motor vehicles on public roads in national parks is outrageous.

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby antigee » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:22 pm

caneye wrote:
queequeg wrote:Yep, just a mention by police according to the court list, so she probably wasn't even required to attend. However, I can see a couple of pay-walled articles showing up in Google from today, so there might be some news floating around.


you're right. it looks like she was a no-show.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... court.html

she hasn't enter a plea yet.


according to that Daily Mail article due in court again - today 14th Nov - so I guess a plea will be entered and a decision on if goes to a higher court for trial ? ( I'm a pom and get a bit confused on procedure to trial in Aus')

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby duncanm » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:34 pm

biker jk wrote:
duncanm wrote:


wow - talk about packed full of speculation and innuendo!

The hypocrisy is amusing:

Recreational driving on public roads = bad
Recreational cycling on public roads = good


That's a complete misrepresentation of the article. Testing high speed motor vehicles on public roads in national parks is outrageous.


Maybe you can explain to me why its 'outrageous'.

*any* motor vehicle on the road today is capable of being driven faster than any speed limit in Australia, and can be driven dangerously.

What evidence is there that either of those things occurred with these cars (other than the incident in question)?

Here's a choice quote from that article..
We guess there could be a reason why McLaren wants these activities to be hidden away from prying eyes.

Reports of these tests speak of timing the vehicles for measuring acceleration, activities that should only be undertaken on closed roads or a racing track.

It is clear from these published reports that during some tests the vehicles have been driven very fast on public roads. Fast enough for the spoilers to automatically deploy during high speed braking.

This could have been on sharp corners where a bunch of cyclists could be around the blind corner.
And yes, some of those testing the cars seem to be well aware of the presence of those on bikes, from the disparaging comments they make about bike riders in print.

The question has to be asked about why corporations and other groups organise activities that involve risky behaviours that could threaten the life and welfare of those of us that choose to ride bikes?

Testing the fastest cars in the world on public roads does not suggest responsible management of risk.


We've already debunked the spoiler - just by looking at the owners manual.
Last edited by duncanm on Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby Thoglette » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:37 pm

duncanm wrote:Hoon-level illegal driving on public roads = bad
Law abiding cycling on public roads = good

Fixed it for you.
Last edited by Thoglette on Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby duncanm » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:41 pm

Thoglette wrote:
duncanm wrote:Hoon-level illegal driving on public roads = bad
Law abiding cycling on public roads = good

Fixed it for you.


That I agree with 100% - but as I said, its all speculation.

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Re: Motoring Journalist in McLaren Hits Cyclist at West Head/Akuna NSW

Postby Thoglette » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:43 pm

Speculation? Hmm, you don't read the same motoring (or "lifestyle") mags I've seen. ( I think back to the magazine edition that gave the WRX sports car of the year due to "handling flaws" with the Lotus and Porsche)

Driving these sorts of vehicles in a responsible, legal manner on the roads in question can't provide much to write about beyond how lovely the views are. Nice photo ops however.
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