Toe overlap - do you have it?

Machoman121
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Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby Machoman121 » Mon May 14, 2018 5:59 pm

Bought a new pair of Bont Riot - noticed the cleat can't go any more forward than i would like.....and in my first maiden ride with the shoes I noticed toe overlap - caused me to nearly fall a few times as there's a lot of very tight turns on the bridges and walkways..scotchman's creek etc. Then on the last turn home i toe overlap a 180 turn and over reacted and over braked and crashed the bike - tore my rear derailleur, snapped a spoke and gouged a hole in my carbon drop-outs.

Does anyone live with toe-overlap or do i never ever use the shoes again? my other shoes don't cause toe-overlap as i'm able to push the cleats forward on the shoes - it's also how i prefer to setup my cleats.

g-boaf
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby g-boaf » Mon May 14, 2018 6:12 pm

I have my cleats some way further back on the shoes, and I do have to be careful on very tight turns at low speed but I'm used to it so I don't have dramas.

A google search brought this topic: viewtopic.php?t=88109

Duck in the topic above says:

Duck! wrote:Well you could cut the frame in half & weld in tube extensions.....

Toe overlap, as piledhigher said, is primarily a small bike symptom, resulting from using the same size wheels as larger frames in less available space.

All you can do is be aware of its existence and be aware of your foot position when taking tight turns. In reality, it's quite rare you'll be turning tightly enough for it to become an issue, but when you are making very tight turns, just have the outside crank arm at an angle other than forward.
Last edited by g-boaf on Mon May 14, 2018 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

human909
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby human909 » Mon May 14, 2018 6:15 pm

When you are used to it you don't even notice it. I am pretty sure I have toe overlap on my road bike but as per my previous statement I am not certain.

I mostly rode a MTB has a child and a teenager and later on moved onto road bikes and clipless pedals.. I remember once when my road bike was new discovering my toe overlap and falling over in an embarrassed heap. Since then I can't say I've really noticed it. Mostly toe overlap only occurs at low speeds so I've never had any issues like you discribe.

I also half crank pedal to avoid toe clashes if I am turning my wheel sharply.

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Tim
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby Tim » Mon May 14, 2018 6:37 pm

I've had toe overlap on every road bike I've owned other than a longer wheel-base tourer.
Tight 180° turns are the only times I am slightly conscious of it.
Both my shoes have scuff marks on the inside front, presumably from rubbing, but I've barely ever noticed.
I ride small sized frames.

Machoman121
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby Machoman121 » Mon May 14, 2018 8:32 pm

I suck at turnings at the best of times - and toe overlap just scares the bejesus out of me. Now my beautiful carbon bike is no longer a virgin. Have to take to the LBS to access the damage. Very expensive lesson.

Not sure if i know how to half ratchet my way out of a corner - damn i have to practice that. And there's a lot of crossover bridges that have tight turns with 180 degrees in the scotchman's creek route......a lot of these angles are ascending so you'll need to pedal to supply constant power through them to make the turn.....someone suggested i unclip and move the feet....may that'll work..

uart
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby uart » Mon May 14, 2018 9:09 pm

Machoman121 wrote: my other shoes don't cause toe-overlap as i'm able to push the cleats forward on the shoes - it's also how i prefer to setup my cleats.

Yeah you tend to get used to a certain cleat position and it feels a bit weird when that is changed. I can remember noticing the same thing years ago when changing from old toe clips to more modern "clipless" pedals. All of the clipless pedal/shoes positioned my foot a little further forward compared with toeclips, but over time I got used to that and now prefer it that way. A few weeks ago I put a set of toe clips on an old bike and was surprised how far back it placed my foot, and TBH I didn't really like it.

I also find that you get used to a little bit of toe overlap, lots of bikes have it to some degree. You just have to be careful during low speed turns.

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antigee
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby antigee » Mon May 14, 2018 9:28 pm

did and hated it - no big deal on "normal" rides but commute stuff with stupid 180 deg tight on bridges and slowing up for right angle turns a real pain because you forget - mine was bike related not shoe - lived with it as didn't commute every day but if can work out a way to fix I'd go for it

edit and only short arses have to get used to it

human909
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby human909 » Mon May 14, 2018 10:18 pm

The amount of toe overlap you describe seems abnormal. Maybe its some odd bike geometry or maybe you are turning in an odd manner that means a greater steering angle. (No offense intended.)

Ascending 180degree bends are hard, but even then the 180 turn should be over in about half a pedal stroke. Build up a bit of speed, pause and turn and then continue up. The most tricky one I've encountered on normal trails is probably the main yarra trail north of Manningham Road.

I suppose the easiest way to work it out would be to ride with a mate and see how they handle it.

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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby ironhanglider » Mon May 14, 2018 10:43 pm

Ouch that's a bad result from something that is normally innocuous.

The only 180 bends in the Scotchman's Creek trail that I'm familiar with (SE Melbourne) are at the Blackburn Road crossing. It also includes the added fun of being wooden boards, which can be slippery when wet. The rest are 90 degree bends onto bridges which usually let you carry enough speed so that you don't have to pedal until after the turn.

I have experienced toe overlap with my front mudguard, particularly the mounting stays. Fortunately for me, I was lucky enough to be able to solve it my running the guard close to the tyre, and cutting the stays short. A few mm make a big difference. (with previous mudguards on the same bike I had an overlap problem with the 5mm of nut and washer of my bolted on mudflap, but not without)

There are products around for moving cleats outside the limits imposed by the existing shoe holes but it may depend on your pedal system. I've also heard of people drilling new holes in Bont shoes such as to achieve a mid-foot cleat position (Steve Hogg?) so I presume it is also possible to do the same forwards, but that'd need some more research.

Cheers,

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uart
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby uart » Mon May 14, 2018 11:17 pm

Machoman121 wrote:I suck at turnings at the best of times - and toe overlap just scares the bejesus out of me. Now my beautiful carbon bike is no longer a virgin. Have to take to the LBS to access the damage. Very expensive lesson.

Not sure if i know how to half ratchet my way out of a corner - damn i have to practice that. And there's a lot of crossover bridges that have tight turns with 180 degrees in the scotchman's creek route......a lot of these angles are ascending so you'll need to pedal to supply constant power through them to make the turn.....someone suggested i unclip and move the feet....may that'll work..


Could you post a picture of the degree of overlap Macho. There are various degrees of toe overlap, as I said most bikes have it to some extent, but yours might be a very bad case.

I've got a small amount of overlap even on my bike with a 61cm frame. A small amount of overlap can be defeated by just dropping your heel a little during tight low speed turns.

slowK
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby slowK » Tue May 15, 2018 8:32 am

Yes - I have it on all the road bikes I've owned, but never on my MTBs or flatbar commuter. And like everyone else says - mainly low speed, overpasses, tight uphill turns. But it really makes my cornering confidence a lot less, and "ratcheting" the cranks going around a tight bend works but is a compromise.

Front-centre is the key metric (longer less likely), combined with crank length (longer more likely), Q-factor (wider less likely), tire size (larger more likely) and cleat position (rearward cleat/more toe sticking forward more likely).

I ride tiny road bikes (I'm 160cm) and most roadies seem to have a front centre of around 570-580mm. I think many manufacturers don't think through bike geometry for smaller riders that well.

However I did test ride a 48cm Cannondale Synapse recently, which has a larger fork rake (60mm) for the smaller sizes, compared with 45mm for most roadies. It has a front centre of 598mm, and NO TOE OVERLAP! (With 30mm tires and 165mm cranks, I had about 7mm of clearance.) Will likely be my next bike.

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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby slowK » Tue May 15, 2018 8:37 am

Machoman121 wrote:Bought a new pair of Bont Riot - noticed the cleat can't go any more forward than i would like.....


Actually, moving the cleat forward should make toe overlap less likely. It means more of your foot is behind the pedal and further away from the front wheel. It's usually rear ("mid foot") cleat positioning that moves the toe relatively forward and closer to the front wheel.

And unclipping on tight turns is what I need to do as well.

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RonK
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby RonK » Tue May 15, 2018 8:53 am

antigee wrote:edit and only short arses have to get used to it

Not so - I'm 182cm and ride 56cm bikes - most have toe overlap to some degree. Big and tall people usually have big feet too, so toe overlap is just as likely. And I prefer a mid cleat position so I have them as far back as they can go.

Does it bother me? No - I had to go check to remember if any actually did overlap.
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MattyK
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby MattyK » Tue May 15, 2018 9:19 am

slowK wrote:I ride tiny road bikes (I'm 160cm) and most roadies seem to have a front centre of around 570-580mm. I think many manufacturers don't think through bike geometry for smaller riders that well.


You and your fellow shorties should be lobbying for more 650c bikes.
And shorter OEM cranks. As someone 185cm on 175mm cranks (making the generalisation that that's appropriately proportionate for me) I find it ridiculous that someone 150-160cm is sold a bike with 170mm cranks...


slowK wrote:
Machoman121 wrote:Bought a new pair of Bont Riot - noticed the cleat can't go any more forward than i would like.....


Actually, moving the cleat forward should make toe overlap less likely. It means more of your foot is behind the pedal and further away from the front wheel. It's usually rear ("mid foot") cleat positioning that moves the toe relatively forward and closer to the front wheel.

That's his point exactly. Can't get the cleat any further forward to eliminate toe overlap.

slowK
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby slowK » Tue May 15, 2018 2:02 pm

You and your fellow shorties should be lobbying for more 650c bikes.
And shorter OEM cranks. As someone 185cm on 175mm cranks (making the generalisation that that's appropriately proportionate for me) I find it ridiculous that someone 150-160cm is sold a bike with 170mm cranks...

Yep. Fully agree. I've changed to 165mm cranks from 170mm ones. The Canyon womens 650c road bikes look good, but I worry about the relative lack of 650c tires and tubes.

slowK wrote:
Machoman121 wrote:Bought a new pair of Bont Riot - noticed the cleat can't go any more forward than i would like.....


Actually, moving the cleat forward should make toe overlap less likely. It means more of your foot is behind the pedal and further away from the front wheel. It's usually rear ("mid foot") cleat positioning that moves the toe relatively forward and closer to the front wheel.

That's his point exactly. Can't get the cleat any further forward to eliminate toe overlap.[/quote]

Duh - my bad. Completely misread it. Thanks for the correction.

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familyguy
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby familyguy » Tue May 15, 2018 2:15 pm

Never really had toe overlap, but I generally ride big (60cm+) bikes with 175mm or 172.5mm cranks. The 170mm cranks on my 56 Fuji occasionally will result in a slight brushing of the toe if I am dead horizontal with the pedals. Even on my short track bike I could manage to avoid it with the cleats forward where I like them. It seems a bit of a shortcoming of those shoes that you can't avoid it at all?

I never used to have toe overlap on my old Koga Miyata, but I managed to work in some toe overlap by crashing it into a car. It only bent the DT by a barely noticeable angle, but it was enough to start the clips brushing the wheel in horizontal pedal/full steering turns.

Jim

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Thoglette
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby Thoglette » Tue May 15, 2018 2:30 pm

slowK wrote:I worry about the relative lack of 650c tires and tubes.

You could move to 26" tubulars. Even rarer.

In all seriousness, Conti, Michelin and Schwalbe are all still making decent tyres in 650C (571 iso). There's even stock in .au (Moruya Bicycles)

As someone who uses a weird tyre size (27" x 1 1/4" aka 630 ISO) it's not that bad, even if the delay in getting my favourite flavour shipped from .de each time is a pain.
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Machoman121
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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby Machoman121 » Tue May 15, 2018 10:12 pm

uart wrote:
Machoman121 wrote: A small amount of overlap can be defeated by just dropping your heel a little during tight low speed turns.


Excellent suggestions - thanks. I'll try it when the bike comes back from LBS. The guys at the LBS didn't think the damage was as bad as it looks.

I've also used the dremel to make remove some plastic from the Look Keo cleats and gave me some additional mm more of the slot - so I could push the cleat up by a couple more mm. I hope it helps. Have to wait for my bike to be returned before i could see how this customised cleat and lowering the heels will help.

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Re: Toe overlap - do you have it?

Postby trailgumby » Tue May 15, 2018 11:16 pm

I have it on my road bike and it's essentially an XL (61cm frame). :shock: My cleats are reasonably rearward, pushing my foot forward.

I only really notice it on the sharp 180deg turn at the bottom of the shared bridge over Warringah Road at Forestville, and it's easy to work around.

You just make sure you have your *inside* crank forward. Really, this is what you should be doing anyway and this is what they teach in MTB skills drills when they teach you ratcheting around soccer cones for low speed bike handling skills. I practice it frequently when I'm doing low speed skills play with the MTB in the park opposite my place, so it comes naturally. Most of the other roadies in my bunch unclip one foot to negotiate this turn.

My correct bike size is actually a 58-59 and I must admit overlap is one reason I've been a bit reluctant to switch out to the smaller frame now that I have had my fit dialled by Aaron Dunford.

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