Putting the "oh no" into obikes

fat and old
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby fat and old » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:58 pm

human909 wrote:
fat and old wrote:I have to admit I wondered what you meant about "due process". Obviously not the EPA. Are you referring to council?

Council or state based law making to address the situation. Not by leveraging the powers of a different authorities to drive the company out of town.


Hmmmmm...I don’t actually think there’s anything wrong per se with using a Gov. Authority to achieve a public outcome.

And tbh it’s no different to the idea of using Worksafe to go after drivers of commercial vehicles or those that have business ads on them because the police didn’t provide the outcome the cyclist wanted. This has been a popular idea here at times.

You know that I don’t agree with blaming obikes for the actions of others, so keep that in mind if you reply. :)

human909
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby human909 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:20 pm

fat and old wrote:Hmmmmm...I don’t actually think there’s anything wrong per se with using a Gov. Authority to achieve a public outcome.

I agree, but with hesitation. When using abnormal means to achieve a public outcome the public benefit must be pretty clear. Sort of like they way they went after Al Capone...

In the case of Obikes I don't believe that the it was clear that the public was being harmed. Instead it came down to the whims of a few councilors...

This is all pretty philosophical though. I'm pretty sure if I got a gang of council rangers, EPA and worksafe inspectors to hang out in and around your workplace looking for any tiny breach they could pretty quickly put you out of business. (I realise you probably get plenty of work FROM councils, but I hope you get my point. Target a business and you will find plenty of minor breaches pretty quickly.)

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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby fat and old » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:20 am

I’ve always said that the day after you buy a new car, the police could put a roadworthy on it.

human909
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby human909 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:36 am

fat and old wrote:I’ve always said that the day after you buy a new car, the police could put a roadworthy on it.


The same with bikes too! :cry: (Well fines rather giving you a unroadworthy notice, but I think we are on the same page here.)

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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby Jmuzz » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:59 am

fat and old wrote:I’ve always said that the day after you buy a new car, the police could put a roadworthy on it.


There was a guy defected on brand new motorbike the day he picked it up.
It became one of the major points in NSW EPA being slapped down by parliament and having their motorbike exhaust defecting privileges greatly reduced.
It was a similar thing where EPA was being abused as a hammer to hit motorbikes for hooning. Too hard to catch in the act of speeding, so harass with bogus technicalities.

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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby RetroPilot » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:33 am

I'm afraid that the entire thing, including the punitive measures, reflects poorly on our community a lot more than it ever will the O-bike providers.

People are provided free borrow-bikes...and, look what a lot of us did with them, how we treated them.

Was anyone ever brought to book for abusing/mistreating the service itself?

It's like abusing the bikes became some sort of equivalent sport for the brain-dead...something like, say, Quokka-soccer on Rottnest Island...just with a non-living victim.
Cities of the world I've visited where I'd have loved to encounter an O-Bike scheme on same terms.
Who are these retards who react this way to it? Do we have any kind of , erm, profile on them?

human909
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby human909 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:47 am

I think this thread has mostly run its course. But on reading this it is amazing how punitive the EPA gets about bicycles compared to SERIOUS pollution and waste.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... 4zmxi.html

"The EPA was criticised over a pile of more than nine million tyres abandoned near Stawell for nearly a decade, despite the authority repeatedly issuing clean-up orders."

And that is just one of many examples. Obikes aren't even a blip on the radar.

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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby Calvin27 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:35 am

human909 wrote:I think this thread has mostly run its course. But on reading this it is amazing how punitive the EPA gets about bicycles compared to SERIOUS pollution and waste.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... 4zmxi.html

"The EPA was criticised over a pile of more than nine million tyres abandoned near Stawell for nearly a decade, despite the authority repeatedly issuing clean-up orders."

And that is just one of many examples. Obikes aren't even a blip on the radar.


Umm but they did issue fines.
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Ivanerrol
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby Ivanerrol » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:25 pm

Looks like the deposits paid by those Obike users has gone - as suspected. :roll:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/deposits-converted-into-subscriptions-as-obike-withdraws-from-another-market-20180613-p4zl9d.html

OBike - a Singaporean company has been stopped operating in it's own country due to onerous regulations.
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BSNYC says

Postby Thoglette » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:59 pm

Eben Weiss wrote:The problem isn’t dockless bikes. It's dockless cars.
BSNYC on bike share
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
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Re: BSNYC says

Postby human909 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:56 am

Thoglette wrote:
Eben Weiss wrote:The problem isn’t dockless bikes. It's dockless cars.
BSNYC on bike share


Great line, great article and great summary:

Ultimately, our fear of dockless bikes reveals three things:

We set aside an insane amount of space for cars;

We’ve become so inured to this state of affairs that anything occupying the tiny sliver of public space that remains seems out of place if it’s not either a car or part of a car;

The solution isn’t cracking down on shareable last-mile forms of conveyance, it’s making more room for them.


Providing 'docks' for 'dockless' bikes make sense from an urban streetscape point of view. Having them randomly on footpaths does not.
And by 'docks' I mean corralled areas preferably off pedestrian thoroughfares on most city blocks.

We used to have public tie ups for horses. Now its cars. Making a little space for bicycles (be it private bikes or share bikes) really shouldn't be difficult for councils to manage.

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Re: BSNYC says

Postby Thoglette » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:18 pm

human909 wrote: Making a little space for bicycles (be it private bikes or share bikes) really shouldn't be difficult for councils to manage.

Except that "car bays" are sold as "dollars through the till". And any plan to reduce their number (especially "free" on-road bays) are met with howls of outrage from worthies at the local chamber of commerce.

I recommend looking back through the daily papers when various pedestrian malls were proposed (e.g. Hay St in Perth). Ghost towns filled with unsavoury types were the dire predictions

The more modern research showing that public transport users (peds); locals (more peds) and cyclists spend more and more often (than bargain hunting motorists) is boring by comparison. No cites today, you'll have to do your own homework on this one. (hint: Vancouver and this. Even building owners get it).

Clover Moore might be another good search term, for entertainment value.
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Re: BSNYC says

Postby fat and old » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:41 pm

human909 wrote:/i]

Providing 'docks' for 'dockless' bikes make sense from an urban streetscape point of view. Having them randomly on footpaths does not.
And by 'docks' I mean corralled areas preferably off pedestrian thoroughfares on most city blocks.

We used to have public tie ups for horses. Now its cars. Making a little space for bicycles (be it private bikes or share bikes) really shouldn't be difficult for councils to manage.


FWIW, we do have public tie ups for bicycles in Melbourne. Almost 3,000 of them.

I agree that the docks are the go.....but it rankles that M/C's can park anywhere on the footpath they want without all this b.s.

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Re: BSNYC says

Postby Jmuzz » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:53 pm

human909 wrote:
Providing 'docks' for 'dockless' bikes make sense from an urban streetscape point of view. Having them randomly on footpaths does not.
And by 'docks' I mean corralled areas preferably off pedestrian thoroughfares on most city blocks.
.


And unfortunately it is an issue which has been dodged, so will continue to fester into the future.

As bicycles become more popular the city is still going to hit the issue of bikes cluttering up the footpaths, chained to private fences, on private property.
Plus cheap private bikes being abandoned (the usual bike chained to rack with missing wheels etc) or stollen and dumped in problem locations.

And here's the big thing, there will be far MORE private bikes (one per bike commuter, sometimes two for each end of the train trip) than there will ever be bikeshares (shared ? users).

So the bike clutter apocalypse is still coming and provision of bike parking areas cant be avoided forever.
The lack of bikeshares to bare the brunt of vandalism and lack of place to park means people's private bikes are going to go through a stage of suffering before things get better.

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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby fat and old » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:45 am

Cycle parks are on the up in Melbourne, although it is reactive. There’s large groups of off path hoops at Melbourne Uni and Royal Melbourne on Royal Pde which are always maxed out as soon as they’re extended. Build it and they’ll come. :) It’s about location....the corral at Lygon was well intentioned but not the best place.

I’ve long thought that parking corrals along Royal Pde that are secure (like the parkiteer cages at rail stations) close to the cbd edge would be a solid move,

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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby Thoglette » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:55 am

Ivanerrol wrote:Looks like the deposits paid by those Obike users has gone - as suspected. :roll:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/deposits-converted-into-subscriptions-as-obike-withdraws-from-another-market-20180613-p4zl9d.html

OBike - a Singaporean company has been stopped operating in it's own country due to onerous regulations.


The Guardian reports today that OBike customers say deposit refund button on app now deleted
Naaman Zhou, The Guardian wrote:On Monday the company abruptly announced it was closing down in Singapore, where it was founded, only weeks after it closed its operations in Melbourne.

Hundreds of oBike customers in Singapore and Australia have complained that the company is refusing to refund deposits and is uncontactable. Others said their initial deposit had been converted into an ongoing subscription fee without their permission.

When the Singaporean newspaper the Straits Times visited oBike’s headquarters on Monday it found the building had been abandoned.

The company’s Australian helpline has also been disconnected and oBike has not responded to emails or media requests.


Anyone want to give odds on any customer (or supplier) seeing more than 5c in the dollar?
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby Jmuzz » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:31 am

Not going to be any assets to recover, all those deposits would have paid for the bikes which have no salvage value.

Govt may need to consider it for future and require "deposits" to be held in a third party fund and payout gaurantee underwritten.

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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby familyguy » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:58 am

I've seen a few people riding around with the locking mechanisms removed, which I'm guessing is a breach of the conditions of hire. What are the legalities of people retaining bikes in the event that the company does not seek to reclaim? I'm guessing that will be quite a few, given the operators reactions to date.

Jim

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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby human909 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:51 pm

Jmuzz wrote:Not going to be any assets to recover

Depends. From my brief research they are NOT a limited company in Australia. They are a big multinational company Thus they still have significant cash and income.

(Of course that doesn't mean they are getting their money back. Fine print. Refusal to pay.. etc... No obvious recourse etc. Whenever you hand over your money you are taking a risk you are not going to get it back or get your goods. It happens EVERY day in Australia. Including plenty of big companies who don't pay millions of dollars in bills and simply respond by say 'so sue' us.)

Jmuzz wrote:Govt may need to consider it for future and require "deposits" to be held in a third party fund and payout gaurantee underwritten.

Lets get some perspective here. The number of deposits and size of deposits are hardly a reason for government involvement. This is a drop in the ocean of consumer losses due to 'deposits', gift vouchers and the like....

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Re: BSNYC says

Postby BJL » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:43 pm

Thoglette wrote:
human909 wrote: Making a little space for bicycles (be it private bikes or share bikes) really shouldn't be difficult for councils to manage.

Except that "car bays" are sold as "dollars through the till". And any plan to reduce their number (especially "free" on-road bays) are met with howls of outrage from worthies at the local chamber of commerce.


As far as I'm aware, it's quite legal for cyclists to park their bikes in 'car' parking spaces as you call them and pay for it, just the same as motorists. Though I'm sure if Melbourne motorists woke up one morning to find half of Melbourne's on street car parking taken up by cyclists who have legally parked and paid for the privilege, more than a few bicycles would be vandalized and/or 'moved' out of the way and dumped on the nearest footpath, which will be around the time the radio shock jocks will get on their high horses and complain about bicycles left lying around on footpaths all over the place.

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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby Jmuzz » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:47 pm

human909 wrote:They are a big multinational company Thus they still have significant cash and income....


Reports are that their headquarters has gone bellyup too.
So nobody's going to get paid.

Australian consumer protection tends to take things pretty seriously, other deposit takers like caryards are required to have large bonds secured to cover deposits and warranty claims when they go bust.

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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby human909 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:17 pm

Jmuzz wrote:Reports are that their headquarters has gone bellyup too.

Which reports are these? Link them if you could. Otherwise stick to facts rather than making them up. Obike has a presence across the globe. Sure the same city that they are headquartered (Singapore) has also taken action over Obikes but that still leaves many other cities out there.

Jmuzz wrote:Australian consumer protection tends to take things pretty seriously, other deposit takers like caryards are required to have large bonds secured to cover deposits and warranty claims when they go bust.

Hah. If you haven't noticed cars are at the high end of the price spectrum. In the vast majority of the consumer world you have ZERO protection you are simply an unsecured creditor. AKA if you put down a deposit or even pay fully upfront for a $10,000 bicycle waiting delivery and the company goes bust. Good luck and get in line fighting over any scraps of the company.

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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby Thoglette » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:01 pm

human909 wrote:Which reports are these? Link them if you could.

See my earlier post where The Guardian quotes the Straits Times in reporting the head office closed.

I'll save you six seconds of serious searching: here's the original Straits Times article (JUN 26, 2018, 5:00 AM SGT Zhaki Abdullah Ng Huiwen Deepanraj Ganesan)

The Straits Times wrote:When The Straits Times visited oBike's office in Commonwealth Lane yesterday afternoon, the premises appeared to have been vacated.
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby fat and old » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:10 pm

Interesting few lines in that piece

Mobike and ofo - both originating in China, where there are about 18 million shared bikes - are flush with cash. In March, ofo received an injection of US$866 million (S$1.18 billion) from investors like Alibaba.
A month later, Mobike was acquired by food delivery giant Meituan Dianping for US$2.7 billion.
Companies without such financial backing may eventually suffer the same fate as oBike, said observers.
Last November, China's Bluegogo closed shop, despite raising US$60 million in funding.
"Smaller operators might find it tough," said Mr Francis Chu, co-founder of cycling enthusiast group LoveCyclingSG.


$60 million is a "smaller operator"

What's Australia worth to them again? :lol:

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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes

Postby human909 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:11 pm

Thoglette wrote:I'll save you six seconds of serious searching: here's the original Straits Times article (JUN 26, 2018, 5:00 AM SGT Zhaki Abdullah Ng Huiwen Deepanraj Ganesan)

:oops:
I blame my hangover and lack of sleep following watching the soccer last night.


While a closed building doesn't mean shut down, it and the other evidence is pretty damning. Their media activity has basically shut off in multiple countries, contractors that were hired to collect and redistribute bikes have long stopped working.

Yep. There really isn't any money there for deposits. On the plus side it would seem they are now abandoned property and even deemed litter by the EPA. So surely it isn't stealing if you collect a few for yourself, it would just be another day of clean up Australia Day.

I might even do that to make my own franken bike. :mrgreen:

fat and old wrote:What's Australia worth to them again? :lol:

Several thousand obikes at $50 a pop wholesale. So around $150,000 or so in bikes. Another $50-$100 thousand or so in initial delivery and distribution and administration. So maybe $250,000 in direct investment. So as long as they got around 35,000 signup "deposits" the system has payed for itself.

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