Red bus lanes..

RetroPilot
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Red bus lanes..

Postby RetroPilot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:54 am

Yesterday , around 11.45am-noon,Springvale Rd south-bound , ie downhill, side, two pairs of riders,fairly elderly men, on two tandem bikes would you believe, in reddish-paved bus-lane area....I was riding the 902 bus, this crew obstructed the bus, made no attempt to let it past..to make things worse, every time the bus driver got space to divert into blacktop lane and overtake them, naturally, next bus stop, they caught up , and whole process began again.
I ride that same strip, using the bus-lanes...when I sense a bus behind me, I immediately clear him out from behind me..as far as I'm aware, that is the obligation for riders when using that bus path.
We might be encouraged to lane-claim it, and I do, even when alone.
But not at the expense of ignoring and pointedly obstructing actual bus traffic.
The bus would normally honk riders to alert them to its presence and request right of way, but this driver did not, admittedly, but no way they were not all aware of the bus riding their heels.

Eventually, we got a half km break on them down past Haileybury, and my stop came up.
I waited for them , a gap had actually opened up between the two tandems,after posing a rhetorical if they might be new to this whole scene , I gave them a brief but fairly forceful roadside presentation on the protocol as I see it, as they passed.
The lead tandem pilot or co-pilot, returned a black gloved thumbs-up gesture, which I'm unclear was in a positive or negative context.Just thumb, not two-fingers, hence the ambiguity with that.

discuss? (but no Critical Mass style militants, please, naturally to them the bus is a fossil-fuel burning dinosaur and I am baby-killer war-crime enabler for riding it (I have a broken collar-bone currently or else that trip would have been me on bike)

duncanm
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby duncanm » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:35 pm

RetroPilot wrote:Yesterday , around 11.45am-noon,Springvale Rd south-bound , ie downhill, side, two pairs of riders,fairly elderly men, on two tandem bikes would you believe, in reddish-paved bus-lane area....I was riding the 902 bus, this crew obstructed the bus, made no attempt to let it past..to make things worse, every time the bus driver got space to divert into blacktop lane and overtake them, naturally, next bus stop, they caught up , and whole process began again.

(rest deleted)

What legal obligation does a cyclist in a bus lane (*) have towards buses?

How, exactly, are they supposed to let a bus pass without pulling over or into the adjacent lane?


(* - note. "Bus Lane", not "Bus Only Lane")

Tamiya
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby Tamiya » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:47 pm

Was your 902 running *on* schedule? :)

Perhaps the bus driver was fine keeping behind the cyclists, he wasn't rushing to make up time... last one I chatted to, they get in trouble as much being "ahead" as well as "behind" per their timetables.

Other routes with bus stop bays they can stop & wait a bit, but Springvale Rd ain't the safest place to park a bus by choice. You're then a (my view) stationary obstacle for cyclists & if some idiot driver clips your stopped bus... yep that'll really wreck your shift. Be safer to stay moving & slow down before next stop.

Just a thought.

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:05 pm

Ugh, Springvale Rd. My least favourite road in Melbourne aside from Stud Rd...both as a driver and as a rider. The section I think your referring to, from around Springvale South to Keysborough etc, is a weird stretch of road at the best of times, especially at night. I would think the two tandem pilots most probably weren't aware of the grief they were causing..
Mmm, SunTour

human909
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby human909 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:10 pm

If cyclists are allowed in the lane then they have as much right to the lane as the bus. They have a very strong right to stay alive.

I've had a bus driver deliberately and aggressively swerve towards me heading off from lights because I was in 'his' lane.

Experiences such as this would make me err on the side of caution and take the lane unless it is exceptionally wide.

human909
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby human909 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:15 pm

RetroPilot wrote:The bus would normally honk riders to alert them to its presence and request right of way,

Request right of way?

RetroPilot wrote:(but no Critical Mass style militants, please,

You mean cyclist who wish for better cities to live in and safer and healthier environment for all especially the most vulnerable road users?

RetroPilot
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby RetroPilot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:55 pm

human909 wrote:If cyclists are allowed in the lane then they have as much right to the lane as the bus. They have a very strong right to stay alive.

I've had a bus driver deliberately and aggressively swerve towards me heading off from lights because I was in 'his' lane.

Experiences such as this would make me err on the side of caution and take the lane unless it is exceptionally wide.



don't agree with that...the bus lanes entire raison d'etre is to have a guaranteed way through any other traffic , the obvious imperative to keep its timetable...takes an almost nothing delay to clear the bus out from behind you..cheap courtesy and PR..

RetroPilot
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby RetroPilot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:57 pm

human909 wrote:
RetroPilot wrote:The bus would normally honk riders to alert them to its presence and request right of way,

Request right of way?

RetroPilot wrote:(but no Critical Mass style militants, please,

You mean cyclist who wish for better cities to live in and safer and healthier environment for all especially the most vulnerable road users?


no, I just meant nutters and ratbags
who happen to have a thing for bikes atm..

RetroPilot
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby RetroPilot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:04 pm

10speedsemiracer wrote:Ugh, Springvale Rd. My least favourite road in Melbourne aside from Stud Rd...both as a driver and as a rider. The section I think your referring to, from around Springvale South to Keysborough etc, is a weird stretch of road at the best of times, especially at night. I would think the two tandem pilots most probably weren't aware of the grief they were causing..

yes, that is the bit...

Springvale rd other segments , such as north of Princes Hway, I'm very reluctant to ride at all...

anyway, when my career injury and accident came 6 weeks ago, it was Heatherton Rd near Springvale rd, which I regard as unsafe too, but would not normally be on any longer than it takes to enter off View Rd, and exit down Olympic Avenue...that few seconds 200m segment was enough to put me on collision course with a red-light running geri ..hence my enhanced use of buses...and me being the consul embassy for cycling when on those buses.

Hence my frustration with this odd 2X2 foursome..

RetroPilot
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby RetroPilot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:08 pm

duncanm wrote:
RetroPilot wrote:Yesterday , around 11.45am-noon,Springvale Rd south-bound , ie downhill, side, two pairs of riders,fairly elderly men, on two tandem bikes would you believe, in reddish-paved bus-lane area....I was riding the 902 bus, this crew obstructed the bus, made no attempt to let it past..to make things worse, every time the bus driver got space to divert into blacktop lane and overtake them, naturally, next bus stop, they caught up , and whole process began again.

(rest deleted)

What legal obligation does a cyclist in a bus lane (*) have towards buses?

How, exactly, are they supposed to let a bus pass without pulling over or into the adjacent lane?


(* - note. "Bus Lane", not "Bus Only Lane")


yep...by pulling over for about 10 secs, usually to left edge of bus lane...he goes on his way, you do not have a 10-ton motor-vehicle riding your tail air-braking and burst-accelerating 10m over your shoulder..

AdelaidePeter
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby AdelaidePeter » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:20 pm

My answer is "it depends". If the bus is going to pass only once, and stay well ahead, then I think it is good etiquette to let a bus through. But if it is in an area where buses are making many stops and going about the same average speed as a bike anyway (as is often the case in the city centre), I don't see the point.

Either way, I don't think it is helpful to argue with another cyclist while out on the road (I save all my arguments for internet forums :P), but in your case it seems that they took it well.

human909
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby human909 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:32 pm

RetroPilot wrote:don't agree with that...the bus lanes entire raison d'etre is to have a guaranteed way through any other traffic , the obvious imperative to keep its timetable...takes an almost nothing delay to clear the bus out from behind you..cheap courtesy and PR..

Ok. I'll buy that argument.

Mine was more and legal rights and expectations. But if cheap courtesy is available then sure it makes sense to do so. If it isn't, then it doesn't make sense.

And without a doubt my opinion is certainly influenced by a bus driver deliberately threatening me with his 15tonne EMPTY bus.

My life is worth more than his annoyance. The notion that cyclist should be bullied off the road is well entrenched in the Australian motoring public and it would seem this extends to many bus drivers.

RetroPilot wrote:yep...by pulling over for about 10 secs, usually to left edge of bus lane...he goes on his way, you do not have a 10-ton motor-vehicle riding your tail air-braking and burst-accelerating 10m over your shoulder..

Which is a problem. If the bus driver is behaving like that then they are driving recklessly and dangerously. Assert your position for the common good or GTFO and let them pass. (I normally choose the former unless I believe the person behind the wheel is crazy enough to run me over.)

And make no mistake cyclists asserting their position on the road DOES lead to the common good of cyclists. Do you think the motorists in Melbourne's inner north just magically started waiting patiently behind cyclists? No. They eventually realised that cyclists WERE legitimate traffic and should be treated as such. Aka wait patiently if needed.

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ColinOldnCranky
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:15 am

duncanm wrote:
How, exactly, are they supposed to let a bus pass without pulling over or into the adjacent lane?



Easy. Just ONCE hold up for a minute behind the bus and once it gets away go on my journy in the normal way. I'll soon make up the time as the bus gets away out in front and I no longer have to lose time at every bus stop.

It is what I used to do on main highways. To keep on leapfrogging one another just delays the eventual end of trip for BOTH of us. Without being on the road in question, I am guessing that the OP is describing such a situation.

As for
What legal obligation does a cyclist in a bus lane (*) have towards buses?
, legal niceties are sometimes just a poor self-justification. I can ride my unicycle on the PSP as far over to the marked middle line as I wish but, as well as adding hazard to myself and others, would show me up as a smug tool.

Human, in response to your concern for personal safety, the action I suggest is also the safest option. Certainly repeatedly having to pull out and pass a bus in traffic is a risky venture. Do it twenty times in your trip and it is a risky venture times twenty. Plus, the rider should owe it to peds to not speed past a bus from which passengers may be departing, always assuming peds are not always the smartest tool in the shed and that a collision with one is just as likely to wind up with you under the wheels of another vehicle as it is to harm the ped.
Unchain yourself-Ride a unicycle
Image

human909
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby human909 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:55 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote:Certainly repeatedly having to pull out and pass a bus in traffic is a risky venture. Do it twenty times in your trip and it is a risky venture times twenty.

I wasn't suggesting that.

In fact I can't say I remember experiencing this scenario of leapfrogging buses. I have experienced it with trams, but the normal result is me in front of the tram and leaving it behind... So by your logic should the tram not be overtaking me?

ColinOldnCranky wrote:Plus, the rider should owe it to peds to not speed past a bus from which passengers may be departing

I seem to overtake busses in a different way....

My point was simply that cyclists should be subjected to bullying and forced to yield "for safety" because the other vehicles are bullies and bigger.

I endeavour to be a courteous road user. But I will not cower to bullying as it only encourages unless I think that there is genuine threat to body or life.

duncanm
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby duncanm » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:30 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
duncanm wrote:
How, exactly, are they supposed to let a bus pass without pulling over or into the adjacent lane?



Easy. Just ONCE hold up for a minute behind the bus and once it gets away go on my journy in the normal way.


Now that, I agree with. If I'm behind a bus, I generally hold back unless I'm sure I can out-run it, or will be exiting soon.

RetroPilot
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby RetroPilot » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:49 am

yes, well, rider tailing in the wake of the bus then results in either practicing how long you can hold your breath (which I admit doing in some situations when either passing among smokers or diesel motor-vehicles- or even petrol ones which have just passed me under very strong acceleration, then you get that stink of unburned benzine) or in riding for any length of time in fresh diesel exhaust...

no, the bus lanes do not say 'buses only lane"..(although cars are explicitly banned in peak hours) but it definitely does say "bus lane", and that is the reason it is painted brick-brown..
it's in our interest to make PT also work, imo..one responsibly-driven bus is better and less threat to us than another 20-30 car Conrod Straight on road in peak hours..

duncanm
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby duncanm » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:43 am

RetroPilot wrote:no, the bus lanes do not say 'buses only lane"..(although cars are explicitly banned in peak hours) but it definitely does say "bus lane", and that is the reason it is painted brick-brown..


it may say "bus" on the sign, but it means "bus or bicycle" per Vic rule 154.

btw - it is illegal to stop in a bus lane.. so others who suggest you pull over and wave a bus past are technically breaking the law.

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hamishm
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby hamishm » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:51 am

RetroPilot wrote:no, the bus lanes do not say 'buses only lane"

The law was changed in the last couple of years in Victoria to allow bikes in bus lanes even if not specifically signed that way.

The cyclists were not doing anything wrong. The bus should change lanes to overtake them. If the bus isn't actually going faster than them it shouldn't overtake them.

RetroPilot
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby RetroPilot » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:59 am

it's signed to allow bikes anyway...it's signed to exclude cars in obvious peak-stress periods.
I've used it since for cycling it was put there, but always given way to buses only.
Never just sauntered along blithely obstructing a bus directly and conspicuously like these 4 MFers Saturday noon.

It is a bus lane. If not to assist buses on a bus route , it would not be installed
there.
If the buses went away, it would be removed.
they would not leave a nice billiard-table smooth brown over-width luxurious lane there for us to binge on like an episode from Seinfeld..

human909
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Re: Red bus lanes..

Postby human909 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:28 am

RetroPilot wrote:I've used it since for cycling it was put there, but always given way to buses only.

That is you choice. The way other cyclists choose to ride is theirs.

It can be a fine line between basic road courtesy and being submissive to bullying behaviour. I'm very hesitant to judge any road user for not pulling over to yield to other traffic when there are other lanes available for passing or when the time frame is short. Both of these situations apply to this scenario.


I think you do make a reasonable point about the luxury of riding in a nice wide bus lane. But like I said earlier my limitted experiences in such lanes have been deliberately threatening behaviour a bus driver. So thanks to him I will be assertively taking the lane unless there is a significant amount of space for safe passing. (Should I mention that the most threatening behaviour occured AFTER I had yielded left to let the bus pass?)

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