The cost of motoring in Sydney

The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:28 am

NSW govt has reached agreement with the toll operator to widen the M5 to 3 lanes on a significant stretch of the road. Cost to be paid for by toll operator, but Govt is spending 50 million on sound abatement.

http://smh.drive.com.au/roads-and-traffic/m5-widening-to-ease-traffic-congestion-20111221-1p4hb.html

On the surface this looks cheap for the NSW taxpayers, but its not quite that simple, the Wolli Creek tunnel is already over capacity and the cost of a new tunnel is enormous.
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by BNA » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:42 am

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Re: The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby CommuRider » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:42 am

Build more roads, build more roads, build more roads.

The Transport Minister is a dinosaur. He talks like a dinosaur too. Not expecting much for the next 3 or 7 years from this lot. Imagine what they could have done with the $50M to build more off-road cycle paths.
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Re: The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby J-Tim » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:50 am

"KEEP LEFT UNLESS OVERTAKING".

Put this sign at 100m intervals all along M5 tunnel. Give massive fines to those who don't obey this simple rule. Problem solved.
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Re: The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby hannos » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:02 am

The M5 is stationary from Revesby through to (I assume) the airport. What is widening the road pre- Revesby going to do besdies get more cars to the bottle neck faster?
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The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby herzog » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:26 am

J-Tim wrote:"KEEP LEFT UNLESS OVERTAKING".

Put this sign at 100m intervals all along M5 tunnel. Give massive fines to those who don't obey this simple rule. Problem solved.


Only applies where the speed limit is over 80kph.

Also doesn't apply when there's congestion, which is pretty much all the time on the M5
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Re: The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby J-Tim » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:44 am

herzog wrote:
Also doesn't apply when there's congestion, which is pretty much all the time on the M5



The study shows that most congestions are caused by motorists not obeying the simple rule I stated earlier. There is also almost no drivers education on how to merge onto a motorway, where one must accelerate to highway speeds before merging, provided that on-ramp is long enough, which is perfectly true for places such as King George's -> eastbound M5.
Most however, prefer to merge straight away, forcing those already travelling at 80+ km/h to slam their brakes. Those behind are forced to do the same and voila, a so-called "congestion'.
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Re: The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby hannos » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:05 pm

J-Tim wrote:
herzog wrote:
Also doesn't apply when there's congestion, which is pretty much all the time on the M5



The study shows that most congestions are caused by motorists not obeying the simple rule I stated earlier. There is also almost no drivers education on how to merge onto a motorway, where one must accelerate to highway speeds before merging, provided that on-ramp is long enough, which is perfectly true for places such as King George's -> eastbound M5.
Most however, prefer to merge straight away, forcing those already travelling at 80+ km/h to slam their brakes. Those behind are forced to do the same and voila, a so-called "congestion'.


What study?


You cannot put all the blame for congestion onto those merging in.
Those already on the roads should not be driving as close to the car in front as they do.
If they kept a safe distance the overall traffic speed would be a lot more static (less caterpillar effect) and quite probably higher.
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Re: The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby wombatK » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:08 pm

hannos wrote:The M5 is stationary from Revesby through to (I assume) the airport. What is widening the road pre- Revesby going to do besdies get more cars to the bottle neck faster?

It will take away the nice wide shoulder/bicycle lane between Salt Pan Creek and KGR, and west of Salt Pan Creek, the central grass reservation was supposed to be for the extra lanes. If the M2 debacle is anything to go by, we will lose the on-road cycleway during the construction period.

Prior to the election, both sides of politics dismissed the widening proposal, arguing that without an increase in the tunnel capacity it was not economically viable or a reasonable solution. The government is now claiming that half the M5 traffic exits before the tunnels. Pretty damned sure that far less than half the traffic crossing Salt Pan Creek exits at KGR or Bexley Road. But the state government doesn't have too many members of parliament who live in the areas served by the M5. So most wouldn't be familiar with this route and it'd be easy to do a snow job on them.

I wonder what remarkable traffic modelling they are using - and particularly what it shows about the effect of 3 lanes merging into 2 is on east-bound peak hour traffic. The 3rd lane will tend to move faster than the other 2 lanes due to the exiting traffic. But that will just encourage impatient queue jumpers to try to pass vehicles on the left, only to then slow down everyone when they merge back at KGR - and my guess is that will be worse than the situation now.

Even now, you often see tools using the long exit slip lane eastbound at KGR to (illegally) pass stationary traffic in the main lanes, then jump out of the slip lane across the undivided line. That kind of beggar-thy-neighbour driving pays a dividend to the inconsiderate tool, but only gives them a tiny time gain which is achieved at everyone else's greater expense. And unquestionably, this unsociable driving is an aggravation to everyone who's got to slam on their brakes to accomodate these merges.

The west-bound evening traffic might benefit from the 3rd lane, in terms of giving anyone joining at or west of KGR a faster run home. The tunnel will still choke traffic from east of the tunnel - so the KGR entry traffic will effectively have a lane to themselves, maybe a little more if you think about the west-bound traffic exiting to avoid the toll from KGR west.
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Re: The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby vander » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:42 pm

J-Tim wrote: There is also almost no drivers education on how to merge onto a motorway, where one must accelerate to highway speeds before merging,

This is a major problem and it is dangerous also. So many times I get stuck behind people trying to merge onto a road doing 90km/h doing less then 40km/h themselves this is very dangerous and causes everyone behind them to slow down so much. It is ridiculous and its just common sense to speed up when merging.

As also mentioned another major problem is the cue jumpers they really do slow everyone down and well they are jerks!
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Re: The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:53 pm

wombatK wrote:It will take away the nice wide shoulder/bicycle lane between Salt Pan Creek and KGR, and west of Salt Pan Creek, the central grass reservation was supposed to be for the extra lanes. If the M2 debacle is anything to go by, we will lose the on-road cycleway during the construction period.


I'm not aware of another cycling route from Wolli Creek to the southwest. As much as I dislike riding on Motorways, I use this route when I want to ride to the Southern Highlands
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Re: The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby am50em » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:59 pm

herzog wrote:
J-Tim wrote:"KEEP LEFT UNLESS OVERTAKING".

Put this sign at 100m intervals all along M5 tunnel. Give massive fines to those who don't obey this simple rule. Problem solved.


Only applies where the speed limit is over 80kph.

Also doesn't apply when there's congestion, which is pretty much all the time on the M5


It applies by default where the speed is over 80kph i.e.no sign required.
It applies irrespective of speed if it is sign posted.
The only place I have seen this is heading to the airport from the city and the speed limit is 70 or 80kph (I forget which one it is).

But 100% agreement on the congestion. :!:
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Re: The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby wombatK » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:39 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I'm not aware of another cycling route from Wolli Creek to the southwest. As much as I dislike riding on Motorways, I use this route when I want to ride to the Southern Highlands

There is a cycleway beside the M5 from Bexley North to Salt Pan Creek - it's the M5 Linear Park, and the route is shown
in this bikely map Yagoona to Botany Bay via M5 cycleways.

It's a fair while since I've used it - because of construction just east of Belmore Rd Riverwood, part of it was closed. And there are some really rough sections on dodgy root-uplifted bitumen or narrow concrete paths with plenty of bumpy joins. Add that to lots of at grade road crossings, and it turns out to be a pretty slow way to ride.

IIRC, Kev365428 has worked out that the M5 hates his tyres and found a way to get from Mascot to Campbelltown that bypassed the M5. He might post a link to it for us...

Might have to keep an eye out to see if there's any consultations about the proposed construction, and whether bicycling facilities will be considered. Am I being too optimistic to suggest it would be good to extend the M7 cycleway alongside the M5 to Bexley North, or should I be greedy and demand they bridge the Wolli Creek gap too ?
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Re: The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby Kev365428 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:48 pm

Better late than never.

Here is the route I take from home to work, when avoiding the M5.
With the proposed new lanes, I'll be using this route more and more now.

I've kinda tweaked it a bit since I created the map, but you get the general idea.

Cheers,

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Re: The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby Wayfarer » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:54 pm

Putting more car lanes to ease traffic congestion is like loosening ya belt to cure obesity. Guess what sunshine? You're still gonna be a fat bastard till you decide to change ya ways!! Ain't nothing more fun than cruising past m5 traffic laughing at people who feel sooo civilised and 'with it' because they drive a car to work.

I thought I'd come into this thread and rant about how my mate sold me a $500 car, then I had to pay for god-awful pink slip, blue slip, green slip, red slip, purple slip, and a whole lotta other crap like rego, rego tax, third party insurance, third person vehicular insurance, and bicycle/surfboard roofrack which COST MORE THAN THE DARN CAR, then a servicing and new tires. Next person who tells me cycling's too expensive is gonna get laughed at before I drive away in my green 1999 hyundai excel. With the TT bike up top.
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Re: The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby SmellyTofu » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:09 pm

Just be thankful the front suspensions of that Excel won't collapse unlike their 94-96 brothers.
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Re: The cost of motoring in Sydney

Postby NhiTrac » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:27 am

I hope they dont shut down the shoulder along the M5... Just recently started cycling again after my back injury (Ingleburn to Kingsgrove) to and from work :?
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