Cop Car on King Street

Cop Car on King Street

Postby find_bruce » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:20 am

I was doing the usual King St hill sprint, up to the lights at Kent St this morning. I was almost there when out of the corner of my eye I noticed the cop car next to me slow down, watching to see if I ran the red bicycle. Decided not to push my luck & stopped. The cop was apparently crawling for traffic offences as I caught up with the cop at the top of King St where he booked a taxi for going straight ahead in the left turn lane at Elizabeth St.

Glad I was a law abiding citizen - today at least
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by BNA » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:59 am

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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby uncle arthur » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:59 am

find_bruce wrote:Glad I was a law abiding citizen - today at least


So how about you do all cyclists a favour (reputation wise) and abide by the laws everyday from now on..... :roll:

It's the same colour red for ALL of us..... :)
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby westab » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:12 am

uncle arthur wrote:
find_bruce wrote:Glad I was a law abiding citizen - today at least


So how about you do all cyclists a favour (reputation wise) and abide by the laws everyday from now on..... :roll:

It's the same colour red for ALL of us..... :)


+1 for the reason above and also one day it might just save your life - we all do occasionally miss seeing things like cars or busses.
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby Oxford » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:14 am

and people wonder why the WA Commissioner says what he says in his opinion piece. the above post says it all about selectively obeying road rules. :roll:
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby Aushiker » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:20 am

Oxford wrote:and people wonder why the WA Commissioner says what he says in his opinion piece. the above post says it all about selectively obeying road rules. :roll:


Well put.
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby zero » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:02 pm

Oxford wrote:and people wonder why the WA Commissioner says what he says in his opinion piece. the above post says it all about selectively obeying road rules. :roll:


Having seen the timings of the lights on the King/Kent st, and the fact that any rider climbing it will have to wait both for cross traffic, and then for parallel traffic that is given a green turning arrow in priority over cyclists (and one which runs to a long set timer, regardless of demand on the induction loops) , combined with a middling to fair chance that the very deeply placed and invisible at the surface bicycle induction loops won't detect the bike (you certainly cannot place the bike anywhere with any certainty), and then during anything like peak hour, is going to find that the turn into kent st is blocked for the entirety of the 5 seconds of green cycle light by pedestrians, is pretty much only demonstrating common sense in looking at the traffic and ignoring the lights, and doubly so if they are coming off kent onto king to head into the city, because in that direction cyclists are given a red light, even when the intersection is set such that no other phase conflicts with it.

Furthermore the timings of the synchronised lights are such that when climbing are such that a powerful rider (ie the kind of rider that just doesn't need a cycletrack) may be able to sprint to the orange at kent, but a normal rider will almost certainly arrive from sussex at the timing which maximises their delay. ie the lights are designed to trap the block of riders that do obey the lights at sussex, such that they must wait the entire cycle at kent. Not only that, the cyclelight at Sussex/King goes red when the turning arrow that conflicts with it is still red for another 20 or so seconds whilst the ped crossing is still in operation.

In short the running of redlights on that system are endemic and encouraged by the terrible design. I have routinely averaged 8km/hr on that system, when touching the speed limit (50) between the lights, and on the same day in the same traffic conditions, I've looped around and averaged 40 by taking the road on Kent (because its easily possible to string together a green light set when ON THE ROAD).
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby CommuRider » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:08 pm

The out of towners aren't aware of how badly designed this particular group of lights are especially since it is going up a hill as well.

There have been previous threads on this section of the cycleway that there is now a cynical view that it was so badly designed to discourage more cycling infrastructure in the city and despite complaints to the RTA, they don't want to change the timing length of the lights.
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby uncle arthur » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:53 pm

CommuRider wrote:The out of towners aren't aware of how badly designed this particular group of lights are especially since it is going up a hill as well.

There have been previous threads on this section of the cycleway that there is now a cynical view that it was so badly designed to discourage more cycling infrastructure in the city and despite complaints to the RTA, they don't want to change the timing length of the lights.


Fact is we can't openly complain about drivers and cyclists breaking THE RULES and then advocate doing it on a technicality because of inconveniece in light timing.

It just doesn't work that way.
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby westab » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:12 pm

Zero & commurider - sorry if I offended you. You are right I should not pass comments about areas I havn't riden in. :oops:

I ride out west along Sunnyholt road at Blacktown which has an off street shared pathway. It is safe but slow with every side street (except one) requiring a stop push the button and wait for the cycle on the lights to get to your turn even if the traffic flow in the same direction if green. I average about 8min waiting for lights for my last 800m to work (or first). As frustrating as this is I was glad I did one time early last year. My light was red for crossing the T-WAY I felt like running it because it was Friday and I wanted to do extra kms and was running out of time. I thought about running it saw a kid and told self to be a good example - I stopped. 2 seconds later a speeding bus came flying past - it may have had my number it would have been close.

Sorry for the long post - I just want you folks to be safe.

My policy is now to stop - I still hate it but am trying to get the RTA traffic control people to change it - one done so far (in 6 months) about 20 more to go. I'm trying the nice and softly approach and have found a nice guy who lives locally and is trying.
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby Oxford » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:36 pm

the phasing of lights is inconvenient to me in the morning when I moto commute, I can accelerate to the limit in 1 gear and about 2 seconds, does this mean I am allowed to run red lights?

poor excuse for breaking the law. if its such a problem do some advocacy to fix the problem. at the end of the day if you do nothing you only have yourself to blame.
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby Nate » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:48 pm

2 big issues
- #1. There is automatic deman on all bicycle features during peak hour commute times in the CBD. The loops are not used at all!
- #2. Light phasing... If they're not how you want, then ignore them?

I go through that intersetcion twice a day & drop at every light every day. You need to understand they are controlling the entire cities traffic & need to take into account EVERYBODY - not just cyclists.
If you dont like the phasing then take a different route!
Sorry to sound harsh, but I find it selfish you ignore them if you dont like them - then we all cop abuse because of it.

As for peds walking on our green - very true, I choose to wait & then progress through them
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby Nate » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:49 pm

Oxford wrote:poor excuse for breaking the law. if its such a problem do some advocacy to fix the problem. at the end of the day if you do nothing you only have yourself to blame.


100% spot on
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby find_bruce » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:32 pm

I have no problem waiting for the lights at the corner of King & Sussex. My reasons for my acts of civil disobedience are that the pedestrian crossing across Kent St remains green & the corresponding left turn arrow on King St remain red for roughly 30 seconds longer than the bicycle green. ie no one can legally cross the bicycle path during that time, however bikes are not permitted to proceed.

And yes it is no excuse for breaking the law - if a police officer should see me & decide to enforce the law I will be issued with a penalty notice. Such is life.

Despite the high horses being paraded around, any study of legal history will show that one way of achieving significant improvements in compliance is to make it slightly easier to comply.

This was demonstrated on this very road at the end of last year when the light phasing gave a good chance of catching the green - in a very short space of time almost everybody complied, not only with the lights at Kent St but also the lights at Sussex St.

Of course I could choose a very close alternative route - ignore the bike path & ride up King St itself, just like what happens on Union St Pyrmont for exactly the same reason. It is perfectly legal - rule 247 refers to bicycle lanes and what runs along King St (& Union St) is not a bicycle lane but a bicycle path & there is not a "no bicycles" sign displayed on the road.

Will that lead to cyclists being abused less or more ?
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby CommuRider » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:50 pm

uncle arthur wrote:
CommuRider wrote:The out of towners aren't aware of how badly designed this particular group of lights are especially since it is going up a hill as well.

There have been previous threads on this section of the cycleway that there is now a cynical view that it was so badly designed to discourage more cycling infrastructure in the city and despite complaints to the RTA, they don't want to change the timing length of the lights.


Fact is we can't openly complain about drivers and cyclists breaking THE RULES and then advocate doing it on a technicality because of inconveniece in light timing.

It just doesn't work that way.


It would have been better if the cycling community was consulted about the light phasing since the RTA imposed this. I have not broken the lights but plenty of cyclists do. I see them all the time. It is like pedestrians on busy George St. This is the CBD we are talking about. It would be better for long-term planning that several more sections of the CBD are pedestrianised and closed to traffic. This is Australia's biggest city we are talking about.

If we were a big strong enough group, the RTA would listen to the complaints for the last year about the kights but they have ignored the logic in introducing longer light phasing. If you have 40 cyclists in one bunch ignoring the lights during peak hour, something is wrong.

I try and avoid these anyway because after OBEYING the lights, one realises this is not the best way to cycle around the city and will only take this route when I have to. I feel sorry for those who are new to the CBD, are on 3 gears or less and see the absurdity of peds jaywalking all the time in this particular section.

Hilly populous Sydney ain't Brisbane. What I would like to see is the RTA listen to the cyclists using this section, then you'd see less groups of cyclists breaking the lights because they remain unresponsive to a growing section of the community using these cycleways.

I should really take a photo of this section during peak hour and post it so you guys can see it. Youtube might be better.
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby CommuRider » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:53 pm

Oxford wrote:the phasing of lights is inconvenient to me in the morning when I moto commute, I can accelerate to the limit in 1 gear and about 2 seconds, does this mean I am allowed to run red lights?

poor excuse for breaking the law. if its such a problem do some advocacy to fix the problem. at the end of the day if you do nothing you only have yourself to blame.


People have. Clover Moore, mayor of Sydney has. They have ignored her. Our Transport Minister is a neanderthal and wants to tear down the cycleways. Under the current state government we have, we aren't getting any friendly hearing.

Oxford, the bike lights are green for 15 seconds, then turn red. The ped lights are green for 1 minute, then turn red. The car lights are green for 3-5 minutes then turn red. People have complained about this for the last year to no avail.
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby CommuRider » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:01 pm

westab wrote:Zero & commurider - sorry if I offended you. You are right I should not pass comments about areas I havn't riden in. :oops:
...
Sorry for the long post - I just want you folks to be safe.


No offence taken :) and yes we all want to be safe hence I wish the RTA or whatever it is called now listen to people who use it. It will lessen the angst for all. I somehow feel the Premier and his Transport Minister are in daily talks with Alan Jones to do whatever they can to make the city less cycling friendly. When you have the Lord Mayor of Sydney being ignored, then you know something is wrong and dodgy with the influence making in the city. *sigh* AFAIK, no cycleways are currently under progress now (after College St, what next?)

Btw, if you are thinking of riding it, I would recommend cycling on a Saturday morning then compare it at a peak time but I think it is better if you were a ped. It is a heavy thoroughfare for the Darling Harbour tourist area and it gets pretty crowded and queueish.
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby zero » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:46 pm

uncle arthur wrote:
CommuRider wrote:The out of towners aren't aware of how badly designed this particular group of lights are especially since it is going up a hill as well.

There have been previous threads on this section of the cycleway that there is now a cynical view that it was so badly designed to discourage more cycling infrastructure in the city and despite complaints to the RTA, they don't want to change the timing length of the lights.


Fact is we can't openly complain about drivers and cyclists breaking THE RULES and then advocate doing it on a technicality because of inconveniece in light timing.

It just doesn't work that way.


its rather more than inconvience. the detection still fails at several lights, and the timings are still such that casual riders believe the lights are borked. ie people are trained to expect that when the parallel main road goes green, so does the pedestrian/cycle lights, and they are annoyed and confused when this does not happen.

red light running is endemic on that system, and its due to the design.
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby Oxford » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:53 pm

I don't see any high horses, just members of society that have an expectation that other members of society will abide by the law, something everyone should do and be able to expect. Suppose its too much to ask for, but that is the way society is moving apparently.
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby trailgumby » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:00 pm

zero wrote:red light running is endemic on that system, and its due to the design.

+1.

I never run the reds there becasue I almost never use the route. I rode it once and it added 10 minutes to my exit from the city. :evil:

Much prefer Sussex St -> Hickson Road which runs parallel with few traffic light controlled intersections, then a 270 degree left up onto Argyle Street.

RTA has deliberately borked the lights to put cyclists last on the priority on the cycleways. The vast majority of cyclists are running an unofficial civil disobedience campaign on these lights.
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:53 pm

Like registration, absolute obedience will not change the bigoted opinions of the Jonesmen one iota. All it will do is force them to find another spurious reason to trumpet their hate.

Is there any decent videos of this reported debacle about? Maybe four of the affected parties could take some time out to get a four corner video of the intersection so the rest of us can make a fair, evidence based judgement as to the viability of these "havens" under current sequencing...
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby Addictr3 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:05 pm

I avoid that street all together, I got abused there once telling a guy running reds to wait. tells me im not his dad, and some other friendly words.. dont avoid it for that reason but, it just way to long.
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby zero » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:18 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Like registration, absolute obedience will not change the bigoted opinions of the Jonesmen one iota. All it will do is force them to find another spurious reason to trumpet their hate.

Is there any decent videos of this reported debacle about? Maybe four of the affected parties could take some time out to get a four corner video of the intersection so the rest of us can make a fair, evidence based judgement as to the viability of these "havens" under current sequencing...


To be fair, I'd have to rerun the course to see what its current state is like. However, this is an example of the quality programming, many, many months after installation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV7yi02zj20

I am on the loops whilst the intersection is still cross green, with a thin tire over a wide MTB rim (easy detect), and I ran straight down the T, because I know what is best for induction loops. the phase that "nominally" belongs to cyclists is replaced with a long pure red phase - which is the poorest programming choice imaginable.
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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby CommuRider » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:42 pm

Is that Kent St? One too many yellow buildings. Wouldn't hazard King downhill esp in the wet. Squeal!!

Anyway the vid reminded me of Harold and Kumar jaywalking

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Re: Cop Car on King Street

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:07 am

Thanks Zero, will have to wait until I get home from work to check it out.

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