M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby GTPilot » Sat May 17, 2014 9:44 pm

biker jk wrote:
GTPilot wrote:
Indeed, but only in dry conditions. ;)


Not quite, a tread pattern makes no difference to grip in the wet according to Sheldon Brown:




sigh....
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby leximack » Sat May 17, 2014 11:27 pm

pretty dodgy bit of road that, unfortunately there is plenty like it.
Bunny hop and/or slow down and/or square it off as much as possible and hope for the best
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby rogan » Sun May 18, 2014 8:43 pm

queequeg wrote:it has nothing to do with hydro planing. Basically the surface is so slippery that the tyre has no grip, no matter what type of tyre it is. Try riding over those awful steel cover plates you find when road works are being done. They are lethal, and this is pretty much what the expansion joints are made of.

Other items that cause tyres to lose grip include "purple ice" (aka Jacaranda Flowers). They make me more nervous than the expansion joints.


Yes, it's not a bump. I'm no expert on the physics, but I can say when there is no friction whatsoever between your front wheel and the ground, the physics keeping you upright completely change, even if just for an instant. I doubt whether that is true aquaplaning. Not in Sydney, but in other parts of the world they get black ice, which causes similar problems. The expansion joints are even more slippery than most access cover plates, they seem to be polished steel.
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby duncanm » Sun May 18, 2014 9:19 pm

ouch ouch OUCH.

I'm glad to hear you're ok - that sounds like it could have been much nastier.

I've managed to avoid stacking on those joints - as others have said, unweight/straighten-up/bunny hop seems to work..

But when you go.. you go. I had a similar down on a slick of oil at the top of Beecroft Rd not long ago. A real WT?? onto the tarmac. Like you, the motorist behind was very kind and stopped to see if I was ok. I got away with just a couple of stitches in my eyebrow.

I've been avoiding Beecroft Rd since then... I keep telling myself Sutherland will harden me up more.
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby queequeg » Mon May 19, 2014 12:00 am

^^^^ Sutherland Rd will harden you up, but remember your scuba gear in the rain!
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Barb1013 » Wed May 21, 2014 7:31 am

Nearly two weeks has passed and my injuries are healing quite well. I still have numbness in my head, leading to a couple of 'unbalanced' episodes. Hopefully, as I have been told, that this should pass and I should get back to normal soon. I have not heard from the RTA (but then I never expected to) so I have written again but this time I am claiming compensation for my medical and dentist bills. In addition I have contacted solicitors (no-win-no-fee) and if they choose to take up the case that will be great but if not I am going to chip away at the RTA until they do something about these joints (and these particlar ones). I will be back on my bikes soon, as soon as everything is ok, and as I have to ride down that road on my way to work (twice a week, one way) I want something done about the dangerous conditions there before someone is killed (and that so easily could have been me). I know I might not get anywhere with it but I am game to give it a go! :wink:

The roads should be safe, not just for car drivers, but cyclists and motorcyclists. So I am asking if anyone out there has had issues with this particular stretch of road (and these expansion joints) and Boognoss would you mind if I use your video of your experience? (When I watched that it made me feel quite queasy, thinking that had happened to me)....
Thanks all.
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby duncanm » Wed May 21, 2014 12:33 pm

Barb, that's good to hear.

If its of any interest, I I did dig up an RMS spec some time back (Can't find it now - the RMS webpage on this stuff at http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/doingbusiness ... works.html seems to be broken) specified that expansion joints must be filled with rubber between the rails of metal.

Those ones on Beecroft Rd have no such filling, as far as I can see.

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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Boognoss » Wed May 21, 2014 12:40 pm

+1 on the good news Barb. Love to know how you go with the RMS/RTA but not thinking optimistic thoughts.

No problem using my footage at all. Hope it helps.

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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Summernight » Wed May 21, 2014 3:04 pm

How hard is it for the road authority to go out with a bit of sandpaper (or whatever they need) and roughen up/pitt the metal surface to stop the issues caused by smooth metal?

Or does that cause too much rusting? Is there some sort of sticky rubber or something that can be placed over the top that stops the slippage?
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Mulger bill » Thu May 22, 2014 12:45 am

Most efforts would be polished away by traffic fairly quickly Summer.
Ideal treatment would prolly involve bituminous paint mixed with sand but that won't last either.

Tapatalk did this... :-\
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Strawburger » Thu May 22, 2014 8:00 am

Summernight wrote:How hard is it for the road authority to go out with a bit of sandpaper (or whatever they need) and roughen up/pitt the metal surface to stop the issues caused by smooth metal?

Or does that cause too much rusting? Is there some sort of sticky rubber or something that can be placed over the top that stops the slippage?


Closing an urban motorway for night works is a big deal, not something they want to do unless it's critical! An entry or exit ramp means setting up diversions, alternate accesses, traffic controllers, noise & lighting approvals, community engagement just to name a few things.

Don't forget the RMS do not operate the m2, transurban do. http://www.hillsm2.com.au/contact.htm

The argument to transurban will be "is this a critical maintenance issue". If you can pair it with scheduled maintenance works or another flawed area nearby then you have a chance something will be done.

You can also state that a critical or severe bicycle accident on the ramp will stop traffic, hence their revenues will be down on days where there are accidents.
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Boognoss » Thu May 22, 2014 9:13 am

Strawburger wrote:
Summernight wrote:How hard is it for the road authority to go out with a bit of sandpaper (or whatever they need) and roughen up/pitt the metal surface to stop the issues caused by smooth metal?

Or does that cause too much rusting? Is there some sort of sticky rubber or something that can be placed over the top that stops the slippage?


Closing an urban motorway for night works is a big deal, not something they want to do unless it's critical! An entry or exit ramp means setting up diversions, alternate accesses, traffic controllers, noise & lighting approvals, community engagement just to name a few things.

Don't forget the RMS do not operate the m2, transurban do. http://www.hillsm2.com.au/contact.htm

The argument to transurban will be "is this a critical maintenance issue". If you can pair it with scheduled maintenance works or another flawed area nearby then you have a chance something will be done.

You can also state that a critical or severe bicycle accident on the ramp will stop traffic, hence their revenues will be down on days where there are accidents.


Strawburger, this particular expansion joint is on Beecroft Rd itself. It just happens to be the bridge that crosses over the M2 motorway so I think it would be RMS responsibility? Happy to stand corrected.

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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Summernight » Thu May 22, 2014 9:29 am

Strawburger wrote:
Summernight wrote:How hard is it for the road authority to go out with a bit of sandpaper (or whatever they need) and roughen up/pitt the metal surface to stop the issues caused by smooth metal?

Or does that cause too much rusting? Is there some sort of sticky rubber or something that can be placed over the top that stops the slippage?


Closing an urban motorway for night works is a big deal, not something they want to do unless it's critical! An entry or exit ramp means setting up diversions, alternate accesses, traffic controllers, noise & lighting approvals, community engagement just to name a few things.


Here in Melbourne they've been regularly closing the tolled tunnels and parts of the Western Freeway on weekends for a while now doing re-surfacing works or something or other. I know it is a big deal, but if people are getting regularly injured by a known problem I would think that is classified as 'critical maintenance'.
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Strawburger » Thu May 22, 2014 1:19 pm

Yeah boognoss, I've looked it up to confirm it is rms controlled. It's a tricky section as it's between m2 ramps. I was thinking of the wrong ramp.

Beecroft road is classified as a state road from Victoria rd (blaxland rd) to pennant hills road. Looks like the f3 to m2 will be starting from around there. Perhaps there will be upgrade works in the area in the near future

Summernights, agreed. Whoever is speaking with the rms and/or transurban will need to present the case for maintenance works with their concerns in mind too, and a good example is the one mentioned in Melbourne.

If it ends up being a rant or complaint it will probably end up on a desk collecting dust unfortunately.
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Strawburger » Thu May 22, 2014 1:48 pm

Furthermore, looking into the rms bridge technical directions, the only approved proprietary slip resistant coatings states that in high wear situations (like Beecroft road) the coating needs to be checked regularly and coatings to be reapplied as required.

So, quote the rms approved bridge components and systems stating the surface needs a recoat as per the technical guidance document.
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Sychen » Fri May 23, 2014 7:43 am

I think there are two similar joints on Epping Rd just before pittwater Rd heading south. Diagonal expansion joints with a large gap. Hit it at the wrong angle and you either slide out or head plant. Luckily I saw it at the last minute And hopped both. On a rainy day with traffic would be dangerous.
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Barb1013 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:02 am

Hi all, just an update on this. Firstly (and the most important bit) is that most of my wounds have healed - the stitches are out of my head and I have this lovely 'dent' ikn my forehead, still numb but my doctor says this should come back (could take three months) and it seems to be improving slowly. My knees and elbow also healed but scars are present (vitamin D cream to be used!) My only legacy now is my left hand has a slight lump on it - my doctor thinks a bone was broken and it popped back when xrayed after the accident and has now healed 'as is' - he is not keen to do anything but just to keep an eye. The only problem I have with it is twisting hard or pulling/carrhing heavy articles. Time will tell.
I wrote to the RMS (twice) regarding this stretch of road. They finally responded advising that this stretch of road belongs to the Hills Motoryway (M2). Hills Motorway have sent me a note stating they will investigate and get back to me (that was two weeks ago). I will keep pushing this because I feel this is a safety issue for ALL cyclists who uses this road. I would like them to pay for my medical/dentist bills and the equipment I had to replace.
As a footnote my doctor also told me that I was very lucky not to be brain damaged (even wearing the helmet). Having just come back from my home country of England I noticed that so many cyclists out there do not wear helmets (they are MAD!!) and to see the way they cycle in London I am not surprised about the number of them being injured.....
I shall be back on the bike next week but will NEVER use this stretch again (I will be crossing over at the lights before and riding down the footpat, then crossing back over).
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby herzog » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:21 am

Did you send them a copy of Bognoss's video crashing at this spot?
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Xplora » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:41 am

Barb1013 wrote:As a footnote my doctor also told me that I was very lucky not to be brain damaged (even wearing the helmet). Having just come back from my home country of England I noticed that so many cyclists out there do not wear helmets (they are MAD!!) and to see the way they cycle in London I am not surprised about the number of them being injured.....
I shall be back on the bike next week but will NEVER use this stretch again (I will be crossing over at the lights before and riding down the footpat, then crossing back over).

Really glad to hear that you're on the mend, and that you've started the process to get the problem resolved.

I've hit my head hard enough to get vision problems, I'm sure that it was temporary brain damage (hit the back of my head, your vision is run from the rear brain area) and it broke my helmet too (flipped a couple metres into the air onto bitumen) - but you really need to back away from the helmet stuff. Doctors don't know any more about the results of head injuries with and without helmets than you do. Studies have shown again and again that helmets don't completely protect you in an accident either. I had no grazes on my head when my vision had issues. The injury was inside my skull and the helmet has to compress quite a lot to do that. Given the design of my Oracle helmet, it's possible that the crack formed simply because a point hit the ground instead the large flat areas (stress fracture in the foam at a specific point).

I would never recommend that someone avoid a helmet, but you've assumed that the doctor knows something about helmets (they don't), that you would not have changed your riding style without a helmet (you would), and that your highly unusual crash is common enough to praise the helmet. I don't ride over steel plates at funny angles at all on my rides. Boog's video proves that particular spot is extremely dangerous for cyclists in the wet, but that is the super dangerous spot. The rest is pretty much a nonevent. Let's not pretend that the helmet is the solution. You've resolved to never cross that metal plate again (good call!); you've changed your behaviour to reduce your risk. A helmetless rider will do the same. I doubt you'll have many people fanging down Beecroft Road in the damp at 40kph without a helmet.

Again, super pleased you're healing, random accidents really knock you around, but let's not get carried away with tertiary issues which you can't prove. A third of your post is praising the helmet and criticising people who don't wear them. This hurts cycling confidence for others, and discourages nonriders into avoiding riding, or encourages them to stop taking cyclists seriously. Accidents happen, but we don't bring the damage on ourselves. The metal plate caused your accident, and experience and skill stopped your injuries from being worse.

You're more than a rider, more than a helmet waiting to hit the road, and the same goes for other people. All the best.
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Barb1013 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:14 am

I have now received a response from Hills Motorway - "they have investigated the matters raised in my email and confirm that the expansion joints complies with all relevant specifications and standards". "Their primary concern is the safety of their road users and they are always looking for ways to improve their roads and the experience for their customers. They have identified an opportunity to install skid resistant surface on the expanson joints of the Beecroft Road overpass which is above and beyond Hills Motorway's obligations in respect of this overpass (and that this work is currently being undertaken)". This is a very welcome result in itself if they do it (but I will still NEVER cycle this part of the road again).
They will not pay any compensation. I am not asking the earth just replacement of my gear and doctor bills. I am going to respond to their letter - herzog I am including Bognoss's video crash with that response (I hadnt seen the video until after I sent my letter to the RMS who passed this over to Hills Motorway) - my thoughts are that they know this part of the road is dangerous and that on a damp or even dry day a cyclist is either going to die or be seriously injured by this hazard in the road. Would be grateful to hear if anyone else has had a crash there (or if you know of anyone - just want numbers). Thanks
I feel like I am a fly, to be swatted away by this huge company..... Any comments appreciated.
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby wombatK » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:59 am

"Above and beyond" ??? Sounds more like what they are legally obliged to do now that you have put them on notice that it's very hazardous. As for your compensation, that's just daring you. Get a solicitor to send them a letter of claim, and you might find them caving pretty quick.
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby trek52 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:17 pm

Is there at point where we take responsibility of our own actions and watch where we are going.........
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Xplora » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:40 pm

Barb, just a couple points. I am 100% with you, and yes, you SHOULD send them a letter of demand...

however, the letter of demand probably relies on some element of negligence, and there is protection against negligence when they follow established practice. If you die after a cortisone injection, and the doctor is following the guidelines exactly as written, they haven't been negligent. It's just an unfortunate accident. The negligence rules acknowledge that it is impossible to prevent every problem, and if accepted practice isn't good enough then our society fails to function.

Given they are looking at putting skid resistant material, that certainly acknowledges that their previous solution wasn't good enough, but it doesn't mean that they have "let you down" given the overpass would have been made to the appropriate design standard.

I would guess they would have a very good idea what their liability is, and it is "possible" that there is a 0% chance of legal action succeeding.

It's galling that this is a real possibility for you, but the law is an ass.

*this is not legal advice, should not be construed as legal advice, I barely know how to tie my own shoes, that's why my bike shoes use BOA dials, please see a lawyer if you want a proper answer* :mrgreen:
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby queequeg » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:17 pm

I'd be interested to know if they are applying the same treatment to all the m2 expansion joints, or just that one. The joints are the same all along the M2.
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Re: M2 OVERPASS EXPANSION JOINTS BEECROFT ROAD

Postby Barb1013 » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:28 pm

Xplora, yes I know it will be hard to get anything out of them but I am going to try at least to get my gear replaced. I believe the fact they have done something with it (which was what I set out to get done, if possible) surely implies they knew there was a fault/problems. They have very cleverly written that letter absolving themselves of responsibility. However, I will be writing back to them with a copy of Boognoss video, photo of my injuries, etc. and requesting the least they could do is have decency to replace my gear.

queenqueg - as far as I am aware these are the only expansion joints they have done anything with. This does not stop you from writing to them....

Today was the first time I have been on my bike since this accident. I noticed that my mirror must have been smashed to bits (and I don't want to ride without it) so that is another expense and will have to wait a couple of weeks to get replaced since this bike (Trek) has squashed handlebar ends and Mirracycle mirror (which we had to order from USA) is I believe the only mirror that fits. I have a mountain bike and will probably use that this week. What I do know is that I can never ride that particular part of the road for fear (even though they have added anti-skid pads) that this may happen again.......

I will let you know the outcome but I suspect it won't be good (oops MUST stay positive :D ). I don't want to go down that legal road - all that will happen is that I will be against a huge corporation and the legal bills will be humongous for little gain (this will be why the ombudsman might be the best route). However, I will try the letter first. :mrgreen:
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