Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby Addictr3 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:31 pm

biker jk wrote:
Addictr3 wrote:anyone else notice some real smart ass has dumped glass on the curve just after the Akuna Marina ? ffs...


On the clockwise loop?


yep but it also goes across both lanes just on the corner either heading out of the marina or into it.
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby Giantcarbon » Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:09 am

Addictr3 wrote:heading out to West Head via Pittwater Road. That stretch before Church point is a nightmare, when you get very frisky drivers all trying to rush around 6-8am Weekdays due to having no brains and thinking they are going to "make time" by going that way is enough to think I might just not risk it and find another route.

Was cycling back last week and was on the final bend on the bayview road, ute up my arse, swearing his head off, telling me to get off the road. I just kept my line but after my last big accident, I dont trust him and started to feel sick in my guts, kinda sucks as I had to stop and get myself to calm down Scary stuff.


Feel I have to weigh in here. I'm a semi regular weekend mccarrs creek RD / west head cyclist. I'm also a commuter who lives at Bayview and does a long drive each day to work. Let's be honest here - mccarrs creek RD is less than ideal when it comes to road sharing - narrow with many blind corners. I feel somewhat safe on a Sunday morning when there are many other cyclists on the road.

The comment above to me represents ignorance and arrogance. When I'm commuting it's for work. I cycle for fun and fitness which I'm sure we all do. Cycling a narrow and blind road in peak hour and holding up commuters makes no sense to me.

Also, living in the area I have many times witnessed plain stupidity by the minority in our sport that no doubt creates tension between motorists and cyclists. In my years living in the area I've had many a discussion about the viability of cycling on this road by annoyed residents. I do feel though that cycling smart (not in peak hour) and accepting the risk is the answer.

Talk of speed humps etc is kind of ridiculous.

Daniel

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby biker jk » Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:56 am

Giantcarbon wrote:
Addictr3 wrote:heading out to West Head via Pittwater Road. That stretch before Church point is a nightmare, when you get very frisky drivers all trying to rush around 6-8am Weekdays due to having no brains and thinking they are going to "make time" by going that way is enough to think I might just not risk it and find another route.

Was cycling back last week and was on the final bend on the bayview road, ute up my arse, swearing his head off, telling me to get off the road. I just kept my line but after my last big accident, I dont trust him and started to feel sick in my guts, kinda sucks as I had to stop and get myself to calm down Scary stuff.


Feel I have to weigh in here. I'm a semi regular weekend mccarrs creek RD / west head cyclist. I'm also a commuter who lives at Bayview and does a long drive each day to work. Let's be honest here - mccarrs creek RD is less than ideal when it comes to road sharing - narrow with many blind corners. I feel somewhat safe on a Sunday morning when there are many other cyclists on the road.

The comment above to me represents ignorance and arrogance. When I'm commuting it's for work. I cycle for fun and fitness which I'm sure we all do. Cycling a narrow and blind road in peak hour and holding up commuters makes no sense to me.

Also, living in the area I have many times witnessed plain stupidity by the minority in our sport that no doubt creates tension between motorists and cyclists. In my years living in the area I've had many a discussion about the viability of cycling on this road by annoyed residents. I do feel though that cycling smart (not in peak hour) and accepting the risk is the answer.

Talk of speed humps etc is kind of ridiculous.

Daniel


I ride McCarrs Ck around once a week, during motorists' peak hour. I find your attitude arrogant and car-centric. Sharing the road means that motorists might have to wait 30 seconds to pass safely, this is no great inconvenience. The majority of drivers passing me on McCarrs Ck ride during their commute do so safely. There are the occasional few who have your attitude that cyclists shouldn't be riding on this ride during peak hour (or perhaps at anytime) and purposely close shave and/or pass on blind bends. I have video footage of one dangerous driver who has closed shaved me twice on McCarrs Ck Rd and pointed to the edge of the road suggesting I should be riding there to "not hold him up", the same sentiment you display. So whether cycling McCarrs Ck ride at peak hour or during weekends, the issue is the attitude of motorists, such as yourself, not the choice of time to ride.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby CXCommuter » Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:58 am

Daniel- which model ute did you say you drive?
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby AUbicycles » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:02 am

Suggesting ignorance or arrogance is the wrong way to make a positive change. In this forum, different views are welcome and the ability of us to tackle these different views in a manner respectful of one another helps us moves us forward as a group when it comes to knowledge, education and improving cycling safety.

It is a valid point that cycling in peak hour increases the chance or risk of incidents but is also a valid argument bike riders should be able to travel on a road without intimidation or aggression from drivers. I would be reluctant to dictate that a person has to travel to work with a specific mode of transport. Cars have an important place in society but the over-reliance and reluctance of our governments to encourage and accommodate for public transport, cycling transport and other transports is a greater disadvantage to all.

My observation is that patience goes a long way, a driver who waits until there is a clear stretch rather than overtaking on blind corners isn't loosing that much time on their total trip time. Bike riders are fair to ascertain their safety by moving over and occupying a lane when it is unsafe for a vehicle to overtake and most bike riders will move back over and allow vehicles to pass when it is safe.

The overarching problem is education of road users (which involves courtesy) and infrastructure. On this particular stretch there is limit scope for major changes but there is scope to improve. For example the road surface is poor in a number of places and improving this increases the safety for bike riders and convenience for motorists who then have more opportunities to pass.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby SheikYerbouti » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:25 pm

biker jk wrote:I find your attitude arrogant and car-centric. Sharing the road means that motorists might have to wait 30 seconds to pass safely, this is no great inconvenience.


The majority of McCarrs has double white centre lines.
While I *know* that the new laws technically allow drivers to cross these to give a rider 1m, the reason that they're there is because most of the road is windy and you rarely have more than a couple of hundred metres' forward vision. The passing law is also only 6 months old. For the last x years, what you're suggesting required drivers to break the law.
I also hold up a fair bit of traffic, driving a fire truck up from Bayview to Terrey Hills which often means sitting at 30-40kmh. This can result in long tailbacks and inconvenience for other road users, so I often pull over into a trail head, or turn onto WH Rd to allow the traffic to pass, before continuing up. The traffic often takes several minutes to be able to safely pass a slow vehicle - whether it weighs 10kg in your case, or 13,500kg in mine.
Do you know what I do when my commute involves likely holding up traffic for several km? I drive to the end of that section, park, and ride the rest of the way. It's safer for me, less frustrating for them, and I guess, how we *share* the road.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby silentC » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:56 pm

Don't you mean *concede*?
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby biker jk » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:58 pm

SheikYerbouti wrote:
biker jk wrote:I find your attitude arrogant and car-centric. Sharing the road means that motorists might have to wait 30 seconds to pass safely, this is no great inconvenience.


The majority of McCarrs has double white centre lines.
While I *know* that the new laws technically allow drivers to cross these to give a rider 1m, the reason that they're there is because most of the road is windy and you rarely have more than a couple of hundred metres' forward vision. The passing law is also only 6 months old. For the last x years, what you're suggesting required drivers to break the law.
I also hold up a fair bit of traffic, driving a fire truck up from Bayview to Terrey Hills which often means sitting at 30-40kmh. This can result in long tailbacks and inconvenience for other road users, so I often pull over into a trail head, or turn onto WH Rd to allow the traffic to pass, before continuing up. The traffic often takes several minutes to be able to safely pass a slow vehicle - whether it weighs 10kg in your case, or 13,500kg in mine.
Do you know what I do when my commute involves likely holding up traffic for several km? I drive to the end of that section, park, and ride the rest of the way. It's safer for me, less frustrating for them, and I guess, how we *share* the road.


I disagree with everything you say. My definition of sharing the road is not getting off it. Motorists are now permitted to cross double lines to pass cyclists safely. There are many passing opportunities on McCarrs Creek Rd, but blind bends are often chosen which highlights my point that some motorists are not prepared to share the road safely ("stuff cyclists holding them up"). I've never encountered a line line of traffic waiting to pass me. Two or three cars at most. It takes five seconds to pass a cyclist. Given the speed limit is 50kmh in many sections, is the the traffic doing 30-40kmh behind a fire truck really a major inconvenience? Doesn't the traffic slow or sometimes stop for the garbage truck? What about traffic lights? Isn't that an inconvenience for motoring commuters? I haven't even started on the issue of taking up so much road space to transport a single person nor the issue of motorists not paying their way for use of the roads.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby SheikYerbouti » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:18 pm

biker jk wrote:I disagree with everything you say.


Doesn't worry me. It's my experience and how it has caused my driving to be affected, slightly skewed by having gone to dozens of bad crashes on McCarrs Ck Rd over the last 20 yrs and knowing the road well. I don't care what you think or do, or what you think of what I do. My actions are cautious, and you may have an academic argument about who *should* do what and what you define something as, but that's all a bit pointless to me when there's blood on the road.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby Giantcarbon » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:58 pm

I'm disappointed. I joined the forum to engage with like minded cyclists and use the marketplace. I read a thread which has personal interest to me, and I immediately get responses from two users that Are a clear example of the minority of cyclists who are arrogant pricks, and think motorists shouldn't be on the road. You give the rest of us a bad name, and I wish you'd find another sport to pollute.

In my six years of living and cycling in the area I am aware of at least 4 fatal cycling related accidents on mccarrs creek Rd. Im sure that anyone who rides here is aware that if you are cycling up at 15kmhr on the other side of a blind bend and a car comes around it doing 60 you are in a position of grave danger, add a car or cyclist coming the other way at that moment and it's almost certain. Obviously the danger is to the motorist as well, but his steel safety cage gives him or her a better chance of survival.

My daughter drives the same road on her commute, and in concern for her safety I urge her to not use the Terrey hills side when possible, due to the inherent danger from other motorists. Talk to the police about the danger of the road and they will be very forthcoming.

I'm 48 years old, and have been cycling all my life, in all disciplines. I love the community. Enviro anti car minority activists take your bad attitudes elsewhere and stop spoiling it for the rest of us.

Daniel

Ps. Biker jk ie. Biker Jerk - very apt.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby biker jk » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:18 pm

Giantcarbon wrote:I'm disappointed. I joined the forum to engage with like minded cyclists and use the marketplace. I read a thread which has personal interest to me, and I immediately get responses from two users that Are a clear example of the minority of cyclists who are arrogant pricks, and think motorists shouldn't be on the road. You give the rest of us a bad name, and I wish you'd find another sport to pollute.

In my six years of living and cycling in the area I am aware of at least 4 fatal cycling related accidents on mccarrs creek Rd. Im sure that anyone who rides here is aware that if you are cycling up at 15kmhr on the other side of a blind bend and a car comes around it doing 60 you are in a position of grave danger, add a car or cyclist coming the other way at that moment and it's almost certain. Obviously the danger is to the motorist as well, but his steel safety cage gives him or her a better chance of survival.

My daughter drives the same road on her commute, and in concern for her safety I urge her to not use the Terrey hills side when possible, due to the inherent danger from other motorists. Talk to the police about the danger of the road and they will be very forthcoming.

I'm 48 years old, and have been cycling all my life, in all disciplines. I love the community. Enviro anti car minority activists take your bad attitudes elsewhere and stop spoiling it for the rest of us.

Daniel

Ps. Biker jk ie. Biker Jerk - very apt.


Abuse isn't a substitute for a coherent argument. Nice try at misrepresenting as well. No one suggested that motorists shouldn't be on the road. If you don't like forum members disagreeing with car-centric attitudes to "sharing" the road perhaps joining a cycling forum was not such a good idea?

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby g-boaf » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:27 pm

Giantcarbon wrote:I'm disappointed. I joined the forum to engage with like minded cyclists and use the marketplace. I read a thread which has personal interest to me, and I immediately get responses from two users that Are a clear example of the minority of cyclists who are arrogant pricks, and think motorists shouldn't be on the road. You give the rest of us a bad name, and I wish you'd find another sport to pollute.

In my six years of living and cycling in the area I am aware of at least 4 fatal cycling related accidents on mccarrs creek Rd. Im sure that anyone who rides here is aware that if you are cycling up at 15kmhr on the other side of a blind bend and a car comes around it doing 60 you are in a position of grave danger, add a car or cyclist coming the other way at that moment and it's almost certain. Obviously the danger is to the motorist as well, but his steel safety cage gives him or her a better chance of survival.

My daughter drives the same road on her commute, and in concern for her safety I urge her to not use the Terrey hills side when possible, due to the inherent danger from other motorists. Talk to the police about the danger of the road and they will be very forthcoming.

I'm 48 years old, and have been cycling all my life, in all disciplines. I love the community. Enviro anti car minority activists take your bad attitudes elsewhere and stop spoiling it for the rest of us.

Daniel

Ps. Biker jk ie. Biker Jerk - very apt.



Your attack on BikerJK is totally and utterly uncalled for. I bet you've never ridden with him or even met him. He is a very experienced and careful rider and one of the more quietly spoken types you'll meet.

Personal attacks are not the way to go.
Last edited by g-boaf on Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby silentC » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:29 pm

Your first post on the forum singled someone out for being "ignorant and arrogant". What did you expect? Now you're calling people arrogant pricks and jerks. Not the best way to inspire thoughtful debate, is it?

Personally I find it highly hypocritical when a person with a car-centric point of view calls me arrogant for wanting to ride on the road (or in the middle of the road as they like to put it). Arrogance is expecting people on pushbikes to move aside for you. Ignorance is failing to understand the road rules. Pricks and jerks are those who close pass you or shout abuse as they drive past.
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby outnabike » Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:35 pm

Giantcarbon wrote:
Addictr3 wrote:heading out to West Head via Pittwater Road. That stretch before Church point is a nightmare, when you get very frisky drivers all trying to rush around 6-8am Weekdays due to having no brains and thinking they are going to "make time" by going that way is enough to think I might just not risk it and find another route.

Was cycling back last week and was on the final bend on the bayview road, ute up my arse, swearing his head off, telling me to get off the road. I just kept my line but after my last big accident, I dont trust him and started to feel sick in my guts, kinda sucks as I had to stop and get myself to calm down Scary stuff.


Feel I have to weigh in here. I'm a semi regular weekend mccarrs creek RD / west head cyclist. I'm also a commuter who lives at Bayview and does a long drive each day to work. Let's be honest here - mccarrs creek RD is less than ideal when it comes to road sharing - narrow with many blind corners. I feel somewhat safe on a Sunday morning when there are many other cyclists on the road.

The comment above to me represents ignorance and arrogance. When I'm commuting it's for work. I cycle for fun and fitness which I'm sure we all do. Cycling a narrow and blind road in peak hour and holding up commuters makes no sense to me.

Also, living in the area I have many times witnessed plain stupidity by the minority in our sport that no doubt creates tension between motorists and cyclists. In my years living in the area I've had many a discussion about the viability of cycling on this road by annoyed residents. I do feel though that cycling smart (not in peak hour) and accepting the risk is the answer.

Talk of speed humps etc is kind of ridiculous.

Daniel


These comments are not from any cyclist that has ridden in traffic.
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby rogan » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:30 pm

Motorists in that area who can't deal with the presence of cyclists should find another route. Pittwater/Wakehurst is one possibility. Cabbage Tree/Mona Vale Rd is another. The only people who MUST use that road actually live upon it (or Scotland Island), are going to a destination along it (such as marinas or parks) or are actually going to West Head/Akuna/Cottage Point. Those users are a minority of motorists along there.

If you are regular motorised vehicle user of McCarrs Creek Rd, then you know there are cyclists upon it. Find a way to cope or go a different way.
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby Kalgrm » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:53 pm

Giantcarbon (Daniel) and others: Please keep discussions civil and on topic or this otherwise productive thread will end up locked.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby ft_critical » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:06 pm

Giantcarbon wrote:
Ps. Biker jk ie. Biker Jerk - very apt.


Daniel, here you step across the line. JK is not this at all. This is the Internet. You can disagree but you are not allowed to call into question his character. 48 is old in years but perhaps you need more experience in dealing with communications on forums.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby AUbicycles » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:40 pm

I have participated actively in this thread, so will leave it up to other moderators to review and decide if anything needs to be done to ensure that there is no bias.

As the forum admin, I believe that this is a discussion that can be continued fairly and without insults as has been done so often in many different threads in the forum.

--

McCarrs creek road is the best route from the Northern Beaches into the quieter roads of the National Park and later if Mona Vale road is upgraded East and West with safer cycle ways, this will also become a viable cycle route however will not discount McCarrs Creek road.

In my experience, the majority of cyclists are courteous and clearly allow vehicles to pass when it is safe.

Again, a solution which would benefit all road users, both pedal powered and motor vehicles is a better road surface. This means that cyclists have less concern dodgy the many holes and manholes and can allow more opportunities for vehicles to pass so that it is safe for them and safe for the driver.

For the example of the fire truck - I understand the position and suggest that motorists following have less visibility of the road and traffic ahead than with a cyclist. Pulling the truck over is awesome for vehicles following, you don't have to do it but well done for the courtesy.

When I am stuck behind a rubbish truck in the car, I would prefer to continue but it is how it is, I need to be patient and safe so if it means waiting, I wait. The rubbish truck is not trying to hold me up on purpose... and neither are the bike riders.

With the curves on McCarrs creek road, there are some sections where is will take longer to have a passing opportunity - but let's not forget that this is meant to be the laid-back northern beaches and the majority of motorists are not transporting critical loads that makes it unacceptable to slow down for 5 seconds or even 20 seconds.



Each cyclist has to decide for themself when they want to ride and I feel that if a ride is returning from a sport ride or commuting during busy periods, that it is not fair to penalise the rider (or penalise the driver). If it is a problem, then fix or improve the infrastructure.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby SheikYerbouti » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:26 am

One thing I *will* say though.

It always surprises me that so many cyclists don't understand that "give way to emergency vehicles running with lights and sirens" is compulsory for ALL vehicles.

I don't really care if you're hitting the perfect pace and cadence to get up McCarrs. If you're in the middle of the lane on that climb, anywhere between Bayview and Terrey Hills, and I am sitting behind you with the siren going, get over to the left and let me past, or get off the bike and the road for a minute.

Obstructing an emergency vehicle under L&S is illegal as well as stupid, but you'd be amazed at how many cyclists over the years haven't moved, and have forced me to be held up behind them.

I will NOT cross double lines on most of McCarrs as it's not safe, apart from a couple of short straight stretches, eg at the Terrey Hills end. Even if the law says I can (if it's safe), I almost always don't judge it to be, because unless you have several hundred metres of straight road and clear vision the risk is too great - and that's rare on McCarrs. If I am across those lines and someone hits me, they'll likely be killed.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby silentC » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:00 am

Is this something motorists also do, or is it one of those things that only cyclists "hitting the perfect pace" ever do?
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby Thoglette » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:34 pm

Giantcarbon wrote:The comment above to me represents ignorance and arrogance. When I'm commuting it's for work. I cycle for fun and fitness which I'm sure we all do.


No, we don't.

I use my bicycle to commute, every day. I use my bicycle to shop, every week. I can't recall the last time I cycled "for fun and fitness" (it does happen occasionally, wrapped around a coffee with mates).

Having said that I do try to avoid roads which put me physically close to fast, heavy traffic. But I can't always do so. And when in such traffic I will "claim the lane" when necessary, even if it upsets some narcissistic psychopaths with time management issues.

While I am constantly bemused by those who choose to have their "training ride" in rush hour traffic, I do seem to recollect that the northern beaches' "rush hour" ends starts at 4am and ends about 9pm.
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:29 pm

AUbicycles wrote:I have participated actively in this thread, so will leave it up to other moderators to review and decide if anything needs to be done to ensure that there is no bias.

Bewdy! *cracks knuckles*

Settle down lads, all of you. Today is day 26ish of car commuting thanks to injury and I'm not long home.

I'm over the whole damn thing, the "convenience", the constant stop start on freeways caused by arrogant behaviour more than traffic volume, the crotchwatching scumbags who must think live tweeting about the bloody traffic is pretty cool, the intersection blockers, the petrol and toll money pissed against a wall, the whole nine yards.

I'm over it and one thing I can confidently say is Not One Cyclist has caused me sufficient problems to even take note, let alone start frothing at the mouth, unlike so many others out there.

I'm in the mood people, so try me. No, i won't lock the thread, I'll just do some hardarse weeding. Go on, I dares yer!

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby CXCommuter » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:47 am

Sorry
Mulger bill wrote:
AUbicycles wrote:I have participated actively in this thread, so will leave it up to other moderators to review and decide if anything needs to be done to ensure that there is no bias.

Bewdy! *cracks knuckles*

Settle down lads, all of you. Today is day 26ish of car commuting thanks to injury and I'm not long home.

I'm over the whole damn thing, the "convenience", the constant stop start on freeways caused by arrogant behaviour more than traffic volume, the crotchwatching scumbags who must think live tweeting about the bloody traffic is pretty cool, the intersection blockers, the petrol and toll money pissed against a wall, the whole nine yards.

I'm over it and one thing I can confidently say is Not One Cyclist has caused me sufficient problems to even take note, let alone start frothing at the mouth, unlike so many others out there.

I'm in the mood people, so try me. No, i won't lock the thread, I'll just do some hardarse weeding. Go on, I dares yer!

Shaun
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby familyguy » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:41 am

^ That. Everyone who rants (or even implies, frankly) that bikes hold up traffic is welcome to sit in with me for my 7km drive to work one morning. That's a tiny drive compared to most Sydney car commutes.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby silentC » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:31 am

I liken it to the furore surrounding boat people. Even at the height of arrivals, something like 13 times more illegal immigrants to this country came here on an aeroplane. But the perceived effrontery of the group's actions gets people riled up beyond rational thought. It's not that we hold up traffic, because plenty of other road users do that, it's the 'arrogant' way we ride up the 'middle of the road' that gets up their noses. It is a deep-seated resentment that's at play. People justify it as an appeal to common sense, but it is really quite irrational. I'm sure there is a PhD in it for someone, if it hasn't already been done.
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