Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

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biker jk
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby biker jk » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:41 pm

rogan wrote:The law says no going over double lines in NSW. Rule 139 applies, but cyclists are not obstructions, unless stopped on the roadway.

But leximack is right. Your experience may differ, but IME, barely ANY Sydney motorist is going to trundle along at 15 km/h for 10 minutes behind a cyclist. They might do it with a truck, for whatever reason, but they won't with cyclists. That's just the reality.

The going over double yellow lines might be illegal, but it's a heck of a lot better than the ostensibly legal close shave within the lane, which remains apparently perfectly legal right up to the point where they put you into hospital (or worse). You could conceivably request the local law enforcement to crack down on this practice. I personally would oppose that, because it encourages close shave passes.

My personal view, a motorist in a standard late model car with the power of 100 horses at his feet, not towing anything, no other special circumstances and a good clear view ahead 150m+ should EASILY be able to get around one or two cyclists. And I'd rather they use more road than shave past my hip. In fact, I prefer this. As a cyclist, I do not want motorists sitting behind me when I'm climbing lengthy hills. Even if that driver is perfectly reasonable and sensible, you can bet that the next driver in the queue will not be. I would much rather motorists go around *when safe* than sit there getting irritable. I do not accept that at every single point on the road in that neck of the woods where there is double lines that it is inherently unsafe to go over those lines to pass a cyclist, merely by reason of the existence of those double lines throughout. It is a breach of the law. But that is not the same thing.



I'm all for motorists crossing double lines to pass a cyclist safely rather than close shaving. However, the reality is that there are many stretches of McCarrs Creek Rd where there are double lines for a very good reason. Blind corners for instance or crests. You don't want motorists crossing double lines to pass in these sections. That's why I take the decision away from the motorist by riding very wide in those sections to prevent a pass. The most dangerous passes I've had along McCarrs Creek Rd is when I have failed to ride wide. In the specific example being discussed, the P-plater could have waited five seconds and there was a straight stretch of road with a broken centre line.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby am50em » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:43 pm

rogan wrote:The law says no going over double lines in NSW. Rule 139 applies, but cyclists are not obstructions, unless stopped on the roadway.
...
...
My personal view, a motorist in a standard late model car with the power of 100 horses at his feet, not towing anything, no other special circumstances and a good clear view ahead 150m+ should EASILY be able to get around one or two cyclists. And I'd rather they use more road than shave past my hip. In fact, I prefer this. As a cyclist, I do not want motorists sitting behind me when I'm climbing lengthy hills. Even if that driver is perfectly reasonable and sensible, you can bet that the next driver in the queue will not be. I would much rather motorists go around *when safe* than sit there getting irritable. I do not accept that at every single point on the road in that neck of the woods where there is double lines that it is inherently unsafe to go over those lines to pass a cyclist, merely by reason of the existence of those double lines throughout. It is a breach of the law. But that is not the same thing.


+1

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby rogan » Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:07 pm

biker jk wrote:I'm all for motorists crossing double lines to pass a cyclist safely rather than close shaving. However, the reality is that there are many stretches of McCarrs Creek Rd where there are double lines for a very good reason. Blind corners for instance or crests. You don't want motorists crossing double lines to pass in these sections. That's why I take the decision away from the motorist by riding very wide in those sections to prevent a pass. The most dangerous passes I've had along McCarrs Creek Rd is when I have failed to ride wide. In the specific example being discussed, the P-plater could have waited five seconds and there was a straight stretch of road with a broken centre line.


Completely agree - there are blind corners and crests, as well as the straighter sections. Going over those lines to make blind passes is extremely dangerous. You cannot do that consistently and expect to never have an accident as a result.
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby wombatK » Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:34 pm

rogan wrote:My personal view, a motorist in a standard late model car with the power of 100 horses at his feet, not towing anything, no other special circumstances and a good clear view ahead 150m+ should EASILY be able to get around one or two cyclists.

Well would you cross unbroken lines to overtake a cyclist if there is a highway patrol car sitting on your tail ?
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby rogan » Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:44 pm

wombatK wrote:
rogan wrote:My personal view, a motorist in a standard late model car with the power of 100 horses at his feet, not towing anything, no other special circumstances and a good clear view ahead 150m+ should EASILY be able to get around one or two cyclists.

Well would you cross unbroken lines to overtake a cyclist if there is a highway patrol car sitting on your tail ?


Depends on all the circumstances, but to be quite honest, unlikely.

Many people would go round but shave the cyclist. I definitely wouldn't do that.
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby find_bruce » Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:55 pm

It is an interesting psychology at work here - I see the same thing most days on Darling Drive - drivers will happily sit behind a concrete mixer slightly slower than me, or the road sweeper a lot slower than me, but if it is just me doing 35 in a 40 zone "MGIF you are slowing me down"

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby InTheWoods » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:30 am

rogan wrote:The law says no going over double lines in NSW. Rule 139 applies, but cyclists are not obstructions, unless stopped on the roadway.

But leximack is right. Your experience may differ, but IME, barely ANY Sydney motorist is going to trundle along at 15 km/h for 10 minutes behind a cyclist. They might do it with a truck, for whatever reason, but they won't with cyclists. That's just the reality.

The going over double yellow lines might be illegal, but it's a heck of a lot better than the ostensibly legal close shave within the lane, which remains apparently perfectly legal right up to the point where they put you into hospital (or worse). You could conceivably request the local law enforcement to crack down on this practice. I personally would oppose that, because it encourages close shave passes.

My personal view, a motorist in a standard late model car with the power of 100 horses at his feet, not towing anything, no other special circumstances and a good clear view ahead 150m+ should EASILY be able to get around one or two cyclists. And I'd rather they use more road than shave past my hip. In fact, I prefer this. As a cyclist, I do not want motorists sitting behind me when I'm climbing lengthy hills. Even if that driver is perfectly reasonable and sensible, you can bet that the next driver in the queue will not be. I would much rather motorists go around *when safe* than sit there getting irritable. I do not accept that at every single point on the road in that neck of the woods where there is double lines that it is inherently unsafe to go over those lines to pass a cyclist, merely by reason of the existence of those double lines throughout. It is a breach of the law. But that is not the same thing.


Same. As long as it is safe to do so, I have no problems with it. People used to do it to me before it became legal in qld and I had no problem with it (much better than a close shave) and I do it myself. The key here is only when it is safe - ie you have ample time and visibility to overtake and get back onto the right side of the road. When a bike is climbing a hill at 10kmh, it doesn't take much road to get past at 30-40kmh. It is not safe to do it on a bend or a crest etc.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:03 am

Busy so I didn't check in here and happy to provide a few comments.

The issue for me was the abuse. Yes it does happen a bit but it still affects my ride.
The pass itself was ok, for me a safe distance.

Regarding overtaking, when I feel it is safe I will consciously move to the side and allow a motorist to pass if they chose to, even if they overtake on double-lines. That is their decision and I can't influence that but I will move over if they chose to pass. Around some of the blind corners however I may still remain to the left side because hoons racing in the opposite direction regularly cross the double lines on blind corners - completely reckless and I want to keep out of the way.

Before this, I made contact with the mayor and attemted contact with the RMS to find out what they are doing to improve safety.

Afterwards I did the following.
- A few calls to RMS but no contact so emailed the fellow from the RMS who is responsible (on holiday so await a reply)
- Email to Transport for NSW - Centre for Road Safety

For this incident I reported by phone to the local police. The officer was really good and outlined my two options:
1. Report (phone or at the station) and the police will follow up with a call. This is about awareness with the intention to prevent the driver continuing to drive like a hoon. No legal consequences
2. File a report at the station with the view to prosecute in court.

Previously I have not be offered the second option, I opted for the first as it will have a better positive benefit. My intention is not to create a scapegoat out of a stupid teenager (I assume) - rather energy is better directed to making a lasting change and improving for cyclists and other road users.

I may not have covered everything and have omitted a few bits which are not necessary for the discussion, though will say that the Police officer was competent and helpful, taking the time to outline the patrols and efforts of the Police currently in this area. Criticism of the police is not, in my view, warranted. Online motorcycling communities have reported that police presence and partrols had stepped up and it is unrealistic to expect 24/7 police presence.

Patrolling is part of the equation, but also road user education and awareness (creating competent motorists) and specifically aiming to make this particular road safer. Cyclists are first on the line, but other road users are in danger from hoons and yahoos as well.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby Nate » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:16 pm

AUbicycles wrote:Busy so I didn't check in here and happy to provide a few comments.


mona vale LAC?

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:30 pm

Yes Nate.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby Strawburger » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:35 am

From a road designers perspective, it is never ok to cross the double white lines. We design them in for very good reasons. The user is unaware of all of these reasons (possibly some though), make uneducated assumptions and say things like "it's ok to cross for xxxx reason" and even worse, then follow through on their thoughts. This is why we have situations like what happened in the OP.
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby yugyug » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:44 am

Strawburger wrote:From a road designers perspective, it is never ok to cross the double white lines. We design them in for very good reasons. The user is unaware of all of these reasons (possibly some though), make uneducated assumptions and say things like "it's ok to cross for xxxx reason" and even worse, then follow through on their thoughts. This is why we have situations like what happened in the OP.


What are your thoughts on the 1m passing rule on trial in Queensland?

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby ball bearing » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:54 am

If drivers did not cross double lines to pass me where I ride then I would either have a very long queue of vehicles trailing me or they would be overtaking me by a few centimetres.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby Strawburger » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:34 pm

yugyug wrote:
What are your thoughts on the 1m passing rule on trial in Queensland?


It is good in theory, however there are a few lines that should be removed:

QMR wrote:Crossing lanes to pass a cyclist

To pass a cyclist—as long as it is safe to do so—you are allowed to:

drive over centre lines (including double unbroken centre lines) on a 2-way road
straddle or cross a lane line (including a continuous lane line) on a multi-lane road
drive on a painted island
cross the centre of a road where there are no lane lines.


The bold quoted from qmr should be removed. I can't believe that was even considered. When a driver is on the other side of the lines and an oncoming vehicle is approaching, natural instinct is to save yourself... So, the driver swerves to save themselves and the poor cyclist ends up hit or very angry...

The rules, if read from start to finish is good (except for above), however most motorists would not have read the entire document/rule to use the 1m rule as intended.
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby InTheWoods » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:57 pm

Strawburger wrote:The bold quoted from qmr should be removed. I can't believe that was even considered. When a driver is on the other side of the lines and an oncoming vehicle is approaching, natural instinct is to save yourself... So, the driver swerves to save themselves and the poor cyclist ends up hit or very angry...


Disagree. If a driver is on the other side of the lines and there is an oncoming vehicle, then they have not obeyed the rule, because they are only allowed to cross the lines when safe. In addition, there is no need to be on the other side of the lines, you can partly straddle them to give the 1m clearance.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby Strawburger » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:04 pm

My point is that there is never a safe situation where a vehicle should be on the other side of unbroken lines. If there was then the road designer would not have designed for unbroken lines in the first place.
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby silentC » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:21 pm

Yes but keep in mind that when those road markings are designed, they are considering two vehicles moving at more or less similar speeds and thus requiring much greater distance to complete the manoeuvre. If you were going to design them for a car overtaking a cyclist, there would be much less need to be concerned about sight lines etc because of the short time the car needs to be over there.

However (there always is a however) my issue with this idea of letting people cross the lines under certain circumstances is that it puts the decision into the hands of drivers, which is always a worrying thing. If you just make it a hard and fast rule, most people will be just conditioned into not doing it (yes I know plenty do but you can't do much about that).
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby InTheWoods » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:32 pm

Strawburger wrote:My point is that there is never a safe situation where a vehicle should be on the other side of unbroken lines. If there was then the road designer would not have designed for unbroken lines in the first place.


In the real world this isn't actually true though. There are plenty of roads around me with double lines, where there is more than enough time to safely pass a cyclist. Consider it may be an 80 zone, so the road designer has allowed for that speed. However it is going up a hill and a bike would be doing 15kmh. Far less room required.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby yugyug » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:59 pm

Strawburger wrote:My point is that there is never a safe situation where a vehicle should be on the other side of unbroken lines. If there was then the road designer would not have designed for unbroken lines in the first place.


Understood, but in light of silentc and in the woods comments, do you think road designers over compensate in practice eg making double lines go longer than needed or putting them in when single would be ok?

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby Strawburger » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:28 pm

I agree with the statements regarding speed differential and can see your points of view. However, most if not all occasions an unbroken line is in place there is a limited line of sight. There may be some roundings in the calcs, but not over compensted too much.

Generally steep sections of road are winding to allow for descents to be controlled and are marked unbroken. When they are not, broken lines would exist to allow for slow vehicles to be overtaken when sight is good.

I'll get back to this thread later as im needed for chores!
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby AUbicycles » Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:26 pm

Spotted today, electronic signs announcing that there is a trial of 50kmh speed limit (reduction from 60kmh) starting on December 15. Not certain if this is the length of McCarrs Creek Road or just the shoreline stretch around Church Point.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby wombatK » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:52 pm

That's a good start, at least if it's the whole length. It should be that at the most in any of the residential areas. And maybe 40 kph would be sensible in the higher activity areas like near the parks, playgrounds, shops, and boat parking areas.
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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby trailgumby » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:03 pm

wombatK wrote:That's a good start, at least if it's the whole length. It should be that at the most in any of the residential areas. And maybe 40 kph would be sensible in the higher activity areas like near the parks, playgrounds, shops, and boat parking areas.


I was thinking much the same.

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby Nate » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:39 pm

wombatK wrote:That's a good start, at least if it's the whole length. It should be that at the most in any of the residential areas. And maybe 40 kph would be sensible in the higher activity areas like near the parks, playgrounds, shops, and boat parking areas.


+1
Chatswood has been like that for a decade.

40km/h - you would struggle to average more than that on the best of times.
Also helps the 5-0, if someone is speeding - its a lot easier to get them for 15+ 30+ & take licences

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Re: Cyclist killed at McCarrs Ck Rd Church Point today

Postby bychosis » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:06 pm

yugyug wrote:
Strawburger wrote:My point is that there is never a safe situation where a vehicle should be on the other side of unbroken lines. If there was then the road designer would not have designed for unbroken lines in the first place.


Understood, but in light of silentc and in the woods comments, do you think road designers over compensate in practice eg making double lines go longer than needed or putting them in when single would be ok?


There are plenty of double lined roads that used to have single line sections. More good open straight sections where you can pass a cyclist, but not long enough for overtaking a car at a similar speed, are being turned into double lines as sight distance and curves are taken into account. Back in the good old days they must have had more sense to know when overtaking was safe, now we have to have lines.
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