Sydney Northern Beaches Transport Discussion Paper

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Sydney Northern Beaches Transport Discussion Paper

Postby AUbicycles » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:18 pm

After Mosman sent mixed messages and wanted to ban cyclists, but still managed a passable backroads cycling network, Warringah gave up on cycling (despite strong interest from user groups) and Pittwater struggled with existing land and infrastructure limitations - the merger into the Northern Beaches was a new chance and now a transport strategy in on the way.

Transport is all inclusive but it is an opportunity to increase relevance of transport modes which are usually neglected; public transport, bike riding and walking. Make sure you take a look and raise cycling... and vote for the much needed underground train from Sydney city, Mosman, ManlyVale, Warringah, Dee Why, Colloroy, Narabeen, Pittwater (and beyond).

We’re developing a transport strategy for the Northern Beaches which will guide future planning and implementation of transport, travel, parking projects and infrastructure across the northern beaches for the next 20 years. The first step is to generate community discussion on our traffic and transport priorities through our Move - Northern Beaches Transport Discussion Paper.


https://yoursay.northernbeaches.nsw.gov ... rn_beaches

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Re: Sydney Northern Beaches Transport Discussion Paper

Postby trailgumby » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:51 pm

I'm on the Strategic Reference Group for this. While there will sometimes be a limit on what I can say publicly because of confidentiality I am very pleased to say that active transport is being taken very seriously. It being viewed as an essential means to reduce the number of car trips undertaken to do as much as possible to improve mobility and reduce congestion in the Northern Beaches Local Government Area.

I am still having to educate council people on some pretty fundamental things, such is the depth of penetration of car culture into peoples' assumptions, but the good news is they are *actively listening*. Our first meeting earlier this month was quite productive.

My copy of Mikael Colville-Andersen's book has just arrived from the University of Chicago, so I need to get reading. In the meantime, any assistance, counsel, advice etc I can get would be most welcome. Next meeting is scheduled for end of May.

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Re: Sydney Northern Beaches Transport Discussion Paper

Postby g-boaf » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:28 pm

trailgumby wrote:I'm on the Strategic Reference Group for this. While there will sometimes be a limit on what I can say publicly because of confidentiality I am very pleased to say that active transport is being taken very seriously. It being viewed as an essential means to reduce the number of car trips undertaken to do as much as possible to improve mobility and reduce congestion in the Northern Beaches Local Government Area.

I am still having to educate council people on some pretty fundamental things, such is the depth of penetration of car culture into peoples' assumptions, but the good news is they are *actively listening*. Our first meeting earlier this month was quite productive.

My copy of Mikael Colville-Andersen's book has just arrived from the University of Chicago, so I need to get reading. In the meantime, any assistance, counsel, advice etc I can get would be most welcome. Next meeting is scheduled for end of May.


That's good - they've got to find another way for transport, car is just impossible for journeys up that way.

I somehow doubt we'll arrive at a solution like this (close to Amsterdam), although it would be nice.

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Re: Sydney Northern Beaches Transport Discussion Paper

Postby zebee » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:29 am

One assumption it is important to challenge: All bikes are narrow and ridden by fit people. (yes I ran into this on the weekend and am still steaming, how did you guess?)

I know people on 3 wheels, upright and recumbent, and some of those are unable to walk far, never mind lift bikes or get up stairs managing 3 wheels. eg friend with hip issues uses a bent cos can't sit on a bike, my mother on her electric Gomier adult upright trike who otherwise has to walk with a frame or stick.

Also if you provide decent infra, parents will use bikes with trailers for kids. School runs and such. Less likely in hilly areas but with electric bikes getting cheaper it's worth while for councils to highlight the idea of smaller kids being taken to school in trailer, older ones on tail alongs behind an electric bike. Or older kids on their own bikes with parents as escort. (I was riding to school on my own from grade 2 but these days seem to be different....)

So any infra has to manage something as long and as wide as a kiddy trailer towed by a recumbent trike or as wide as a bakfiets, so forget the bollards blocking cycle paths and no stairs or anything that requires bikes to be lifted or pushed. Plus no tight turns that make it hard for trailers or trikes. (or large green rockets...)

Another issue that is going to get much more visibility is that you can't lump everything in as "non car". Commuting cyclists are not compatible with strolling peds. There really has to be 3 categories:
- active slow: pedestrians, non-confident cyclists, parents with kids
- active fast: confident cyclists, commuting small wheeled ( fast skateboarders and roller bladers)
- passive fast: cars.

This is already getting column inches in Vic where there's a new Yarra Trail designed for active transport which is getting serious conflict between cyclists and peds.

I suspect that there's not enough real estate in the Notrthern Beaches to accommodate all 3 as cars would have to give up room and we know that won't fly. But the fact that there is a large speed difference between active modes of transport has to be acknowledged and dealt with. As electric bikes become cheaper and word gets out about them then councils are going to have to face the fact that transport cycling is not compatible with pedestrians without wide centreline marked paths and maybe not even then.

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Re: Sydney Northern Beaches Transport Discussion Paper

Postby trailgumby » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:29 pm

Thanks, keep the informed feedback coming. :D

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Re: Sydney Northern Beaches Transport Discussion Paper

Postby g-boaf » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:41 pm

On the other hand, you must have ways to block motorcycle riders. M7 cycleway in Sydney has a problem with trailbike riders. They've even ran into one rider head on. She was lucky to escape that without very serious injury.

There has to be some way of stopping that.

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Re: Sydney Northern Beaches Transport Discussion Paper

Postby zebee » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:00 pm

Every bollard setup that you can find that will pass trikes with trailers, I can pass on an illegal minibike.
And most that won't let trikes past can be managed on a minibike.

So no, there is no way.

All that can be done is CCTV and call the cops in to see if they can bag them.

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Re: Sydney Northern Beaches Transport Discussion Paper

Postby zebee » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:43 pm

Inner west council have produced a report from their recreation survey

https://www.yoursayinnerwest.com.au/rec ... dinnerwest

Cycling was 6th most important, and cycle paths was the number one requirement for new facilities.

A lot of responses about said things like more infrastructure needed, and that the existing needed wider paths and separation of walkers and cyclists.

"People said that they are “happy that they exist”. The cycle paths that are working well are well-connected, well maintained and signposted, with wide paths and a good surface. However, people also said that more are needed in particular designated separate paths, connecting up the existing cycle paths, and signage on shared paths. People spoke in particular about Illawarra Road and Lilyfield Road."

Northern Beaches can learn from this.

I would be interested to find out what the trips in the Northern Beaches by car are for. Work? School run? Shopping? Commuting? Passing through or local?

As we all know the main hassle with cycle facilities is they don't join up and they tend to get put where it's out of the way, not where people want them to go.

And of course all councils contemplating new bicycle infrastructure MUST be familiar with http://wcc.crankfoot.xyz/facility-of-the-month/

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Re: Sydney Northern Beaches Transport Discussion Paper

Postby find_bruce » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:23 pm

Interestingly this graphic from the SMH Where Sydney's cyclists are most likely to have an accident - and when shows the Northern beaches (263) as the 3rd highest number of bicycle crashes resulting in injury 2012-2016 after the Sydney CBD (642) & Randwick (292). Sorry I don't have the skills to show the graphic directly

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Re: Sydney Northern Beaches Transport Discussion Paper

Postby AUbicycles » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:27 am

A comment on the graph is that while some areas have more accidents, it does not immediately mean that cycling is more dangerous, but also that there is more cycling. For example, in Ku-ring-gai the accident rate is lower but there are also far few cycling opportunities, both from an infrastructure and destination perspective.

However a high rate of incidents is still a reason to react and focus on problem areas. If only the NSW government was as 'committed' to cycling safety as they claim...

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Re: Sydney Northern Beaches Transport Discussion Paper

Postby trailgumby » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:23 am

find_bruce wrote:Interestingly this graphic from the SMH Where Sydney's cyclists are most likely to have an accident - and when shows the Northern beaches (263) as the 3rd highest number of bicycle crashes resulting in injury 2012-2016 after the Sydney CBD (642) & Randwick (292). Sorry I don't have the skills to show the graphic directly

Manly Dam, and Serrata and Gahnia trails over the road in the Garrigal national park, plus Red Hill and other technical trails. I can guarantee they don't separate mountain bike crashes from road environment crashes among the cyclist populations.

That said, we do have a lot of driver aggression that seems to be escalating, especially around the traffic nightmare that surrounds the new Northern Beaches hospital, and some nasty riding environments along the main trunk routes along Pittwater Rd and sections of Mona Vale Road.

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Re: Sydney Northern Beaches Transport Discussion Paper

Postby find_bruce » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:19 pm

I agree with both of you, which makes me worry I am becoming "a little bit conciliatory" :)

Statistics are usually more relevant to identifying where a problem exists & rarely directly point to why. Yes they do not identify cyclist numbers. In terms of roadies, I would have thought the numbers at Bobbin Head are at least as high as West Head / Akuna Bay. Yes opportunities for mountain bikes may be part of the answer.

One thing that occurs to me is that the two higher areas are both popular with tourists

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