I`ve been booked

Re: I`ve been booked

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri May 16, 2014 3:09 pm

"Riding furiously"? That works for me, it sorta goes with my forum name. :P
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by BNA » Fri May 16, 2014 4:36 pm

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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby find_bruce » Fri May 16, 2014 4:36 pm

Warning this post contains a long, legalistic, technical and no doubt tedious answer.

A penalty notice gives the recipient a choice between paying a fixed penalty for an alleged infringement of the law, or going to court where the fine imposed may be lower or much higher. In 2012 the NSW Law Reform Commission published a report on penalty notice offences in NSW which includes the recent history, relevantly
the first penalty notice provisions related to parking offences and were introduced to address the difficulties encountered by the courts in dealing with a large number of such offences. In 1961, the penalty notice scheme was extended to some offences under the Motor Traffic Act 1909 (NSW) such as driving in excess of certain speed limits and driving without a licence. This was done at a time when the road toll in NSW had dramatically increased and the government decided that the time of traffic police could be better spent patrolling rather than preparing breach reports and attending court. It was noted that a penalty notice system would save the time spent by motorists in attending court, reduce the costs of issuing and serving summons, and help relieve court congestion.

Not every offence has a penalty notice. Some it is because the offence is so serious, others because it was so infrequent. The prime example in the serious category is drink driving, it was the result of a deliberate decision that every case has to go before a magistrate. The result is that the 20,000-25,000 convicted offenders per year in NSW makes drink driving among the most common offences dealt with by the Local Courts in NSW.

How much Court congestion would there be if speeding was included ? Contrary to what some commenters would have you believe, drivers break the road rules with monotonous regularity – in NSW in the 12 months to March 2014, Police & the OSR issued 540,980 infringement notices totalling $134,784,133.

To understand a penalty notice, first you need to start with the offence under the actual legislation or regulation. Starting with the Road Rules 2008 which relevantly provide:
20 Obeying the speed limit
A driver must not drive at a speed over the speed limit applying to the driver for the length of road where the driver is driving.
19 References to driver includes rider etc
Unless otherwise expressly stated in these Rules, each reference in these Rules (except in this Division) to a driver includes a reference to a rider, and each reference in these Rules (except in this Division) to driving includes a reference to riding.

Various maximum penalties are then provide for in rule 10-2, eg exceeding a speed limit by 30 kilometres per hour or less is liable to a maximum penalty of 20 penalty units = $2,200 (a penalty unit in NSW is defined in s17 of the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999 as $110).

Penalty notices are not provided for in the Road Rules but in another regulation, the Road Transport (General) Regulation 2013. Penalty notice offences are set out in Schedule 5 which specifies (1) the offence (2) who can issue the notice, by reference to Schedule 4 and (3) the penalty level, for which you need to refer back to regulation 123.

So our offence of exceeding the speed limit contrary to rule 20, you will see there is a whole list of difference circumstances relating to the class of motor vehicle (eg Class A = car, motorbike), speed, “zone (eg school zone), each of which can by issued by the police officer who pulls you over.

Importantly, while a bicycle is defined as a vehicle (Road Rule 15) it is not any class of motor vehicle.

It follows that a NSW police officer cannot issue a penalty notice to a speeding cyclist. What the Police Officer could do, if sufficiently motivated is issue a court attendance notice & haul you before a magistrate, who could punish you with anything from a slap with a wet tram ticket to $2,200.

As for riding furiously, it is quite different from exceeding the speed limit, just as exceeding the speed limit is not necessarily dangerous driving, but that is a topic for another day.

Finally the mandatory disclaimer - do not take legal advice from some semi-anonymous person on the internet. If you do, I reserve my right to point and laugh.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby Aushiker » Fri May 16, 2014 5:15 pm

queequeg wrote:Yes, but as per Rule 19:-

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragview/inforce/subordleg+179+2008+pt.2-div.2-rule.19+0+N?tocnav=y

19 References to driver includes rider etc

Unless otherwise expressly stated in these Rules, each reference in these Rules (except in this Division) to a driver includes a reference to a rider, and each reference in these Rules (except in this Division) to driving includes a reference to riding.


Thanks. I completely missed that one, so speeding does apply; is that right?

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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby biker jk » Fri May 16, 2014 6:00 pm

As I stated earlier, in NSW a police officer can not issue a cyclist with an infringement notice for speeding.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri May 16, 2014 6:14 pm

biker jk wrote:As I stated earlier, in NSW a police officer can not issue a cyclist with an infringement notice for speeding.

Actually you said he cannot "book" a cyclist. I doubt that "book" is defined so we have to assume the meaning in order to differentialte between a penalty notice and a summons. that means everyone can be right and everyone can be wrong. :D How much better can it be?

In the context of what has been posted before I guess that while speeding on a bike is illegal, any chage specifically for speeding is unlikley in the extreme. Which is close to Bikers point I think. (And queequeeg I think.)

Thanks ask_bruce. Somewhat clearer now.

Just another reminder to be alert always to advice we receive. We mostly like simple answers uncomplicated by legalistic and technical detail. Which is what most people will give.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby biker jk » Fri May 16, 2014 6:24 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
biker jk wrote:As I stated earlier, in NSW a police officer can not issue a cyclist with an infringement notice for speeding.

Actually you said he cannot "book" a cyclist. I doubt that "book" is defined so we have to assume the meaning in order to differentialte between a penalty notice and a summons. that means everyone can be right and everyone can be wrong. :D How much better can it be?

In the context of what has been posted before I guess that while speeding on a bike is illegal, any chage specifically for speeding is unlikley in the extreme. Which is close to Bikers point I think.

Thanks ask_bruce. Somewhat clearer now.

Just another reminder to be alert always to advice we receive. We mostly like simple answers uncomplicated by legalistic and technical detail. Which is what most people will give.


Yes and ask_bruce was plain wrong a page earlier when he stated the following:

"Close but not quite - the road rules provide speed limits apply to all vehicles.

In NSW however it us considered to be such an unlikely offence that they have not bothered including it in the regulation which provide for on the spot fines, so to charge you the Police would have to issue a Court Attendance Notice for a magistrate to decide a fine".

I don't mind simple answers but prefer they are correct whether simple or otherwise.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby leighthebee » Fri May 16, 2014 8:50 pm

elantra wrote:
Anyway as a resident of Qld i accept that inappropriate use of Police resources is commonplace....



Please provide some evidence that formed this ill informed opinion.... :roll:
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby elantra » Fri May 16, 2014 10:22 pm

leighthebee wrote:
elantra wrote:
Anyway as a resident of Qld i accept that inappropriate use of Police resources is commonplace....



Please provide some evidence that formed this ill informed opinion.... :roll:

OK Apologies i should have been more specific, i meant to say inappropriate use of Traffic Police resources.

That is observational, based on more than 30 years of using Qld roads, including an estimated half a million kilometres travelled.
Mostly in cars, but also in or on various other vehicles including bicycles.

I certainly did not infer that All traffic policing is inappropriate.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby leighthebee » Fri May 16, 2014 11:39 pm

Fair enough, however if people used common sense or when not blessed with this seemingly increasingly rarer commodity and took responsibility for their own actions on the road, there would be no need for legislation, let alone a dedicated traffic cop... :wink:
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby poohkies » Sat May 24, 2014 11:30 am

just a quick question,

isn't speed traping people going down a hill illegal ?
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby jasonc » Sat May 24, 2014 12:09 pm

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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby poohkies » Sat May 24, 2014 12:14 pm

so has there been a high amount of traffic incidents in that area? and have there been alot of complaints recorded ? if no to both they shouldn't have been doing speed traps there.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby trailgumby » Sat May 24, 2014 12:49 pm

biker jk wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:
biker jk wrote:As I stated earlier, in NSW a police officer can not issue a cyclist with an infringement notice for speeding.

Actually you said he cannot "book" a cyclist. I doubt that "book" is defined so we have to assume the meaning in order to differentialte between a penalty notice and a summons. that means everyone can be right and everyone can be wrong. :D How much better can it be?

In the context of what has been posted before I guess that while speeding on a bike is illegal, any chage specifically for speeding is unlikley in the extreme. Which is close to Bikers point I think.

Thanks ask_bruce. Somewhat clearer now.

Just another reminder to be alert always to advice we receive. We mostly like simple answers uncomplicated by legalistic and technical detail. Which is what most people will give.


Yes and ask_bruce was plain wrong a page earlier when he stated the following:

"Close but not quite - the road rules provide speed limits apply to all vehicles.

In NSW however it us considered to be such an unlikely offence that they have not bothered including it in the regulation which provide for on the spot fines, so to charge you the Police would have to issue a Court Attendance Notice for a magistrate to decide a fine".

I don't mind simple answers but prefer they are correct whether simple or otherwise.

You're a lawyer?
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby jasonc » Sat May 24, 2014 12:58 pm

poohkies wrote:so has there been a high amount of traffic incidents in that area?


definitely no recorded traffic accidents/injuries on the front
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby elantra » Sun May 25, 2014 10:39 am

biker jk wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:
biker jk wrote:As I stated earlier, in NSW a police officer can not issue a cyclist with an infringement notice for speeding.

Actually you said he cannot "book" a cyclist. I doubt that "book" is defined so we have to assume the meaning in order to differentialte between a penalty notice and a summons. that means everyone can be right and everyone can be wrong. :D How much better can it be?

In the context of what has been posted before I guess that while speeding on a bike is illegal, any chage specifically for speeding is unlikley in the extreme. Which is close to Bikers point I think.

Thanks ask_bruce. Somewhat clearer now.

Just another reminder to be alert always to advice we receive. We mostly like simple answers uncomplicated by legalistic and technical detail. Which is what most people will give.


Yes and ask_bruce was plain wrong a page earlier when he stated the following:

"Close but not quite - the road rules provide speed limits apply to all vehicles.

In NSW however it us considered to be such an unlikely offence that they have not bothered including it in the regulation which provide for on the spot fines, so to charge you the Police would have to issue a Court Attendance Notice for a magistrate to decide a fine".

I don't mind simple answers but prefer they are correct whether simple or otherwise.

Fascinating isn't it :!: - The differences between the entrenched state Laws, that is.
So many other examples of incongruity in state to state traffic laws exist.

Personally i think Police Officers should have the right to book cyclists for speeding.
But what disappoints me so greatly is that rampant speeding and other offences by motor-vehicles is not being acted upon as vociferously as it should
As i post this i am sitting in a shop beside a "busy" road.
I spend most sunday mornings helping out at this shop.
The speeds that some motorists attain as they go past is just beyond belief.
Here it is a 60 zone and some nutter goes past doing 90 at least every few minutes. :shock:
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby mitchy_ » Sun May 25, 2014 10:49 am

poohkies wrote:just a quick question,

isn't speed traping people going down a hill illegal ?


nope, the speed limit is the speed limit.
just because a downwards slope can aid in acceleration (much the same as pressing harder on the accelerator will) there is no justification for exceeding the limit.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby poohkies » Sun May 25, 2014 10:57 am

So why are there rules about where they can speed check? If what you said was true then there wouldn't be rules on doing speed checks on hills or on the bottom of hills.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby elantra » Sun May 25, 2014 11:26 am

mitchy_ wrote:
poohkies wrote:just a quick question,

isn't speed traping people going down a hill illegal ?


nope, the speed limit is the speed limit.
just because a downwards slope can aid in acceleration (much the same as pressing harder on the accelerator will) there is no justification for exceeding the limit.


Here's where it gets really complicated - i had a casual chat to a police officer at a christmas party a few years ago and i asked him why i never seemed to see the traffic police on a certain (steep) Paddington Street anymore.

He said he thought it was because some opportunist motorist had challenged the validity of his speeding ticket on that street on technical grounds (the angle of the car in relation to the radar beam) - and Won the case.

The rather sad outcome of that situation of course being that Qld Police lost their enthuisiasm to go there because they thought there was now a precedent for any fine on that street to be successfully contested. :(
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby Aushiker » Sun May 25, 2014 11:27 am

poohkies wrote:So why are there rules about where they can speed check? If what you said was true then there wouldn't be rules on doing speed checks on hills or on the bottom of hills.


They are operational procedures or rules or guidelines, they are not the law. Since you are in Queensland you will find details state's road rules in the thread linked to.

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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby mitchy_ » Sun May 25, 2014 11:31 am

poohkies wrote:So why are there rules about where they can speed check? If what you said was true then there wouldn't be rules on doing speed checks on hills or on the bottom of hills.


elantra wrote:
mitchy_ wrote:
poohkies wrote:just a quick question,

isn't speed traping people going down a hill illegal ?


nope, the speed limit is the speed limit.
just because a downwards slope can aid in acceleration (much the same as pressing harder on the accelerator will) there is no justification for exceeding the limit.


Here's where it gets really complicated - i had a casual chat to a police officer at a christmas party a few years ago and i asked him why i never seemed to see the traffic police on a certain (steep) Paddington Street anymore.

He said he thought it was because some opportunist motorist had challenged the validity of his speeding ticket on that street on technical grounds (the angle of the car in relation to the radar beam) - and Won the case.

The rather sad outcome of that situation of course being that Qld Police lost their enthuisiasm to go there because they thought there was now a precedent for any fine on that street to be successfully contested. :(


whoops, i kind of misinterpreted the question.
whilst it isn't legal to speed even if coasting downhill; as above they generally wont use speed traps on inclines, etc due to angles of the beams wreaking havoc with readings.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Mon May 26, 2014 3:26 pm

poohkies wrote:So why are there rules about where they can speed check? If what you said was true then there wouldn't be rules on doing speed checks on hills or on the bottom of hills.

Rules? Maybe more guidelines I suspect. Which would make sense. Concentrate on school zones, concentrate on busy roads, concentrate on black spots, concentrate on where speed limits drop near the outskirts of towns, don't bother with single-user roads like a troad to a lone farm. Increase the traps in winter. All legit IMO.

There is no compulsion to maintain your speed at the maximum allowed. If you do then you will also increase teh tiems that you slip over. Less so if you treat speed limtis as maximum allowed rather than the speed that must be driven.

I have no issue with people getting pinged for exceeding the limit at the bottom of a hill. I do it inadvertantly myself from time to time but a lot less than someone else in my familythat tends to drive towards the maximum a lot more. I accept that I therefore will get a few fines over my lifetime. I do however have issue with those that bleat about getting fined for it. Cop the fine and learn from it.
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