I`ve been booked

Re: I`ve been booked

Postby brett.hooker » Thu May 15, 2014 5:08 pm

Did a bunch of loops there on the weekend and my forearms are like Pop Eye now... It takes quite a bit of energy to brake all the way down to stay under 50. Key is to not let too much momentum build up. Found myself speedo watching to ensure I didn't go over, but also wasn't holding up traffic from behind by going down at 40. After a few laps I started to get the feel for what 47/48 felt like...
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby dungee » Thu May 15, 2014 5:55 pm

And what was the penalty? I assume they can't take points off your car license for that?
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby GeoffInBrisbane » Thu May 15, 2014 6:08 pm

$$$ scaled depending on how far over the limit. No points.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby biker jk » Thu May 15, 2014 6:20 pm

Just curious, was the fine for reckless/dangerous riding or exceeding the speed limit? I'm sure in NSW you can't be fined for exceeding the speed limit since bicycles are not required to be sold with a speed measuring device. So the fine is for reckless/dangerous riding.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby find_bruce » Thu May 15, 2014 7:01 pm

biker jk wrote:Just curious, was the fine for reckless/dangerous riding or exceeding the speed limit? I'm sure in NSW you can't be fined for exceeding the speed limit since bicycles are not required to be sold with a speed measuring device. So the fine is for reckless/dangerous riding.

Close but not quite - the road rules provide speed limits apply to all vehicles.

In NSW however it us considered to be such an unlikely offence that they have not bothered including it in the regulation which provide for on the spot fines, so to charge you the Police would have to issue a Court Attendance Notice for a magistrate to decide a fine
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I`ve been booked

Postby queequeg » Thu May 15, 2014 8:03 pm

biker jk wrote:Just curious, was the fine for reckless/dangerous riding or exceeding the speed limit? I'm sure in NSW you can't be fined for exceeding the speed limit since bicycles are not required to be sold with a speed measuring device. So the fine is for reckless/dangerous riding.


Here are the current speeding offences and fines in NSW:-

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/usingroads/do ... eeding.pdf

You'll notice that there are no offences for speeding on a bicycle. All offence codes are for classes of motor vehicle, so unless there are some special offence codes, it is not technically possible to be booked for speeding on a bicycle in NSW

The general bicycle offences are in this one:

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/usingroads/do ... eneral.pdf

All are $67 and no points, none of them
are speeding offences.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby GTPilot » Thu May 15, 2014 8:34 pm

Some interesting offenses there.
" ride bicycle in incorrect position "
Hahahaha I can imagine the cop "you look like you need to go get a bike fit there rider, I'm giving you a warning, but if I see you riding with out correct KNOP position again I'll be forced to write you a ticket" :roll:
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby jasonc » Thu May 15, 2014 8:52 pm

I got done for "exceeding speed limit"
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby queequeg » Thu May 15, 2014 8:59 pm

jasonc wrote:I got done for "exceeding speed limit"


I haven't been able to locate the code you posted up, but it would be interesting to find out if code 3336 applies to bicycles, or is just some general code for "exceed speed". You can see in NSW they have a different offence for each speed limit range for each class of motor vehicle, but nothing for bicycles.
You might have an easy win if the code is for motor vehicles as the fine is then invalid.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby Calvin27 » Thu May 15, 2014 9:26 pm

I wonder if you can apply for and Official Warning in Vic?

http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?document_id=10369
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu May 15, 2014 11:56 pm

queequeg wrote:
You'll notice that there are no offences for speeding on a bicycle. All offence codes are for classes of motor vehicle, so unless there are some special offence codes, it is not technically possible to be booked for speeding on a bicycle in NSW


I also notice that it is a guide only and "It does not replace the relevant legislation."

I can understand them not cluttering up every bit of helpful documentation for general consumption with matters not deemed to be sufficiently likely. My particular mode is almost always ignored, with good reason. I therefore may consider the absence of the offence as you have but I certainly would not bet my house on it.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby queequeg » Fri May 16, 2014 12:05 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
queequeg wrote:
You'll notice that there are no offences for speeding on a bicycle. All offence codes are for classes of motor vehicle, so unless there are some special offence codes, it is not technically possible to be booked for speeding on a bicycle in NSW


I also notice that it is a guide only and "It does not replace the relevant legislation."

I can understand them not cluttering up every bit of helpful documentation for general consumption with matters not deemed to be sufficiently likely. My particular mode is almost always ignored, with good reason. I therefore may consider the absence of the offence as you have but I certainly would not give a great deal of weight to it.


The offence codes are not listed in the legislation as far as I can find. There used to be a copy of the NSW police offence code book floating around somewhere, but I can't find that either.
I do recall a senior NSW police officer make a statement that it is technically not possible to book a cyclist for speeding, as there was no offence code for the police to fill out.
I'll have to do some more digging, but the document on the RMS is not a guideline, they are the actual offences with fines and demerits that you will get. Yes, it is not the official legislation, but they are not interpretations of road rules like their "bicycle handbook".
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri May 16, 2014 12:06 am

biker jk wrote:Just curious, was the fine for reckless/dangerous riding or exceeding the speed limit? I'm sure in NSW you can't be fined for exceeding the speed limit since bicycles are not required to be sold with a speed measuring device. So the fine is for reckless/dangerous riding.

Sorry, lack of requirement for speedo is not relevant. It has been discussed recently in another thread at http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=74677&hilit=speedo%2A.

Wikipedia has a page on strict liability at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability FYI. However find_bruce does a better job IMO by explaining it in a way appropriate to this particular context:

find_bruce wrote:
Squashed wrote:
KGB wrote: Having no speedo is not a valid excuse.

Well how is one expected to know the speed they are traveling at if they do not have a speedometer on their bike?
Until the government makes it compulsory for all cyclists to have one on their bike, it is a legal argument.

Its an argument, just not a very good one. The magistrate probably won't laugh out loud, but there will be a very short time between hearing your argument and finding you guilty as charged.

Speeding is an offence of strict liability & it is up to the cyclist to decide how to ensure he or she complies with the law. In the same vein a vehicle cannot exceed a timed parking restriction, even though it is not compulsory for the driver to wear a watch.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby biker jk » Fri May 16, 2014 9:31 am

queequeg wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:
queequeg wrote:
You'll notice that there are no offences for speeding on a bicycle. All offence codes are for classes of motor vehicle, so unless there are some special offence codes, it is not technically possible to be booked for speeding on a bicycle in NSW


I also notice that it is a guide only and "It does not replace the relevant legislation."

I can understand them not cluttering up every bit of helpful documentation for general consumption with matters not deemed to be sufficiently likely. My particular mode is almost always ignored, with good reason. I therefore may consider the absence of the offence as you have but I certainly would not give a great deal of weight to it.


The offence codes are not listed in the legislation as far as I can find. There used to be a copy of the NSW police offence code book floating around somewhere, but I can't find that either.
I do recall a senior NSW police officer make a statement that it is technically not possible to book a cyclist for speeding, as there was no offence code for the police to fill out.
I'll have to do some more digging, but the document on the RMS is not a guideline, they are the actual offences with fines and demerits that you will get. Yes, it is not the official legislation, but they are not interpretations of road rules like their "bicycle handbook".


Yes I also recall that a NSW senior police officer stated that it's technically not possible to book a cyclist for speeding. Instead he suggested the offense would be akin to reckless riding. That's why I suspect that the non-requirement for a speed measuring device to be fitted to a bicycle is a factor.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby Aushiker » Fri May 16, 2014 10:26 am

biker jk wrote:Yes I also recall that a NSW senior police officer stated that it's technically not possible to book a cyclist for speeding. Instead he suggested the offense would be akin to reckless riding. That's why I suspect that the non-requirement for a speed measuring device to be fitted to a bicycle is a factor.


With the greatest respect to the Police Officer, I would take that with a grain of salt. Cyclist have been successfully charged in Australia ... It scares me when we take the word of a Police Office like this as gospel ... three months training; maybe not even a Police Officer with expertise in traffic law plus we often post on the inaccuracies of statements by Police Officers should tell us something .... we have courts for a reason (note the amount of time required to be a lawyer as opposed to a Police Officer and then how much more time before one even gets close to sitting on the other side of the bench reviewing the evidence from the very same senior police officer.

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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby biker jk » Fri May 16, 2014 10:38 am

Aushiker wrote:
biker jk wrote:Yes I also recall that a NSW senior police officer stated that it's technically not possible to book a cyclist for speeding. Instead he suggested the offense would be akin to reckless riding. That's why I suspect that the non-requirement for a speed measuring device to be fitted to a bicycle is a factor.


With the greatest respect to the Police Officer, I would take that with a grain of salt. Cyclist have been successfully charged in Australia ... It scares me when we take the word of a Police Office like this as gospel ... three months training; maybe not even a Police Officer with expertise in traffic law plus we often post on the inaccuracies of statements by Police Officers should tell us something .... we have courts for a reason (note the amount of time required to be a lawyer as opposed to a Police Officer and then how much more time before one even gets close to sitting on the other side of the bench reviewing the evidence from the very same senior police officer.

Andrew


"City Central Local Area Command Traffic Sergeant Stewart Lockrey said cyclists were not being picked up for speeding. He said speeding was an offence that doesn't technically exist for bike riders, who can instead be fined for riding negligently or dangerously."

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/a-bridge-too-fast-police-target--unsafe--cyclists--but-not-for-speeding-20120307-1uj6c.html
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby Lukeyboy » Fri May 16, 2014 10:53 am

munga wrote:lol. WarbyD, do you ride coot-tha at all? i think the record for rolling down coot-tha is about 93km/h. 50 is ridiculous, and you don't have to 'think you should be above the law for some reason' to see that.


They had a louge race quite a few years back. I think they were topping 95-105kph from nothing but gravity.

munga wrote:Yeah, I think so. Rolling down Coot-tha 13km over the limit is a heck of a lot less reckless than running red lights during peak hour. How many motorists saw James speeding?

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Ironically more motorists were caught speeding in the same area on the same morning.
11 cyclists vs 14 motorists finned.

The thing I find interesting about Mt Coottha and its speed limit is compared to other areas. Take Mt Glorious. 60 (the very steep sections - Coottha is a bump in the footpath in comparison), 70 (Samford turn off to the Mt Glorious Village sign) and 80kph (Samford turn off/start of the Mt Nebo TT towards Mt Nebo) speed limits on descents that are longer, steeper, none existent run off/shoulder, tighter and that have less visibility ahead. I honestly think Coottha should be a 60kph zone. Most people treat it like that anyway. The road between Samford and Dayboro is in way worse condition and it still gets a 100kph limit.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby Aushiker » Fri May 16, 2014 11:05 am

biker jk wrote:
Aushiker wrote:
biker jk wrote:Yes I also recall that a NSW senior police officer stated that it's technically not possible to book a cyclist for speeding. Instead he suggested the offense would be akin to reckless riding. That's why I suspect that the non-requirement for a speed measuring device to be fitted to a bicycle is a factor.


With the greatest respect to the Police Officer, I would take that with a grain of salt. Cyclist have been successfully charged in Australia ... It scares me when we take the word of a Police Office like this as gospel ... three months training; maybe not even a Police Officer with expertise in traffic law plus we often post on the inaccuracies of statements by Police Officers should tell us something .... we have courts for a reason (note the amount of time required to be a lawyer as opposed to a Police Officer and then how much more time before one even gets close to sitting on the other side of the bench reviewing the evidence from the very same senior police officer.

Andrew


"City Central Local Area Command Traffic Sergeant Stewart Lockrey said cyclists were not being picked up for speeding. He said speeding was an offence that doesn't technically exist for bike riders, who can instead be fined for riding negligently or dangerously."

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/a-bridge-too-fast-police-target--unsafe--cyclists--but-not-for-speeding-20120307-1uj6c.html


Quoting the Sergeant does not change my point ... we have numerous quotes from Police Officers which are factually wrong ... the Courts show that Police Officers are factually wrong on a regular basis ...

What I would prefer to see is the actual legislation wording which excludes cyclists from speeding offences. Find_Bruce has pointed to legislation which suggests otherwise. It will be interesting to know if NSW steps out of line with other states on this or if Queensland and Western Australia are the odd ones out here.

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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri May 16, 2014 11:07 am

Interesting to use the word "technically" when I would expect to hear instead a more appropriate "legally".

I wonder if he simply means that "we don't have a code on our u-beaut computerised ticketing system or manual forms so there is no way that I can write an infringement for it. I think I'l lhave to go with some other charge." :mrgreen:

Methinks I've been working with computers and beauracracy for too long. :?
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby Aushiker » Fri May 16, 2014 11:11 am

Aushiker wrote:What I would prefer to see is the actual legislation wording which excludes cyclists from speeding offences. Find_Bruce has pointed to legislation which suggests otherwise. It will be interesting to know if NSW steps out of line with other states on this or if Queensland and Western Australia are the odd ones out here.


Found the regulations (or legislation) and the Officer is correct it seems ... nothing technical about it; it is very black and white in terms of "speeding".

The NSW Road Rules 2008 ...

Regulation 20 A driver must not drive at a speed over the speed limit applying to the driver for the length of road where the driver is driving

and a driver is defined as a 16(1) A driver is the person who is driving a vehicle (except a motor bike, bicycle, animal or animal-drawn vehicle).

which is different IIRC from Western Australia.

Teaches me for not checking properly in the first place.

As an aside the legislation is scheduled for automatic revocation on 1 September 2014.

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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri May 16, 2014 11:16 am

Learn something every day. On the basis of recent findings in favour of drivers of trucks and things that squeeze into cyclists, I don't find charges like "dangerous" to be very worthwhile. So any cyclist killing a kid in a school zone could conceivable get off and be free to continue more of the same. :?
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby Aushiker » Fri May 16, 2014 11:17 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote:Learn something every day.


We do indeed and I for one value that :)

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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby queequeg » Fri May 16, 2014 1:16 pm

Aushiker wrote:
Aushiker wrote:What I would prefer to see is the actual legislation wording which excludes cyclists from speeding offences. Find_Bruce has pointed to legislation which suggests otherwise. It will be interesting to know if NSW steps out of line with other states on this or if Queensland and Western Australia are the odd ones out here.


Found the regulations (or legislation) and the Officer is correct it seems ... nothing technical about it; it is very black and white in terms of "speeding".

The NSW Road Rules 2008 ...

Regulation 20 A driver must not drive at a speed over the speed limit applying to the driver for the length of road where the driver is driving

and a driver is defined as a 16(1) A driver is the person who is driving a vehicle (except a motor bike, bicycle, animal or animal-drawn vehicle).

which is different IIRC from Western Australia.

Teaches me for not checking properly in the first place.

As an aside the legislation is scheduled for automatic revocation on 1 September 2014.

Andrew


Yes, but as per Rule 19:-

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragview/inforce/subordleg+179+2008+pt.2-div.2-rule.19+0+N?tocnav=y

19 References to driver includes rider etc

Unless otherwise expressly stated in these Rules, each reference in these Rules (except in this Division) to a driver includes a reference to a rider, and each reference in these Rules (except in this Division) to driving includes a reference to riding.
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby queequeg » Fri May 16, 2014 1:21 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:Interesting to use the word "technically" when I would expect to hear instead a more appropriate "legally".

I wonder if he simply means that "we don't have a code on our u-beaut computerised ticketing system or manual forms so there is no way that I can write an infringement for it. I think I'l lhave to go with some other charge." :mrgreen:

Methinks I've been working with computers and beauracracy for too long. :?


That was my understanding when I heard the officer make the statement. It is not that you can't booked for speeding, but when the officer goes to fill out the infringement, they seem to have neglected to include bicycles in the system, since all the penalties for speeding in NSW have been divided into different categories for different vehicle types. In doing so, they only included vehicles with motors. Hence, if the officer puts in that you were speeding in a Class C Motor Vehicle but you were on a bicycle, the infringement is actually invalid.
They would probably ticket your for riding furiously instead, but there doesn't seem to be any standard definition of "furious riding".
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Re: I`ve been booked

Postby GeoffInBrisbane » Fri May 16, 2014 1:29 pm

I was pretty furious after my MM encounters yesterday if that's any help? :lol:
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