critical mass in brisbane!

critical mass in brisbane!

Postby eliza » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:43 pm

alright,
it's time for a new thread on this...

Where are we going to meet for Brisbane CM September?
King George Square?

8)
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by BNA » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:34 pm

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Postby MountGower » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:34 pm

Let's decide what we are meeting up for first.

from somewhere in cyber space:
MountGower wrote;
My idea as to how these rides should go would be to leave the CBD at 4pm once a week. Probably a Wednesday. Each ride would go down a main road and back. Roads like Old Cleveland to Cleveland and back. Wynnum Rd to Wynnum or Manly and back. Waterworks Rd to the Gap and back. Sandgate Rd to Sangate and Back. Bowen Bridge, Lutwyche and Gympie Rd to Bald Hills and back. etc etc.

Road rules would need to be adhered to and it would be equally good to see rouge morons on bikes being taken out by police as it would be to see the same happen to the caged apes. Corking of intersections would be replaced by stopping and waiting.

This would be pointless without 100 riders each week.

How does that sound Eliza?
Working up to the 100 is an optiion of course.
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Postby eliza » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:45 pm

MountGower wrote:Let's decide what we are meeting up for first.

from somewhere in cyber space:
MountGower wrote;
My idea as to how these rides should go would be to leave the CBD at 4pm once a week. Probably a Wednesday. Each ride would go down a main road and back. Roads like Old Cleveland to Cleveland and back. Wynnum Rd to Wynnum or Manly and back. Waterworks Rd to the Gap and back. Sandgate Rd to Sangate and Back. Bowen Bridge, Lutwyche and Gympie Rd to Bald Hills and back. etc etc.

Road rules would need to be adhered to and it would be equally good to see rouge morons on bikes being taken out by police as it would be to see the same happen to the caged apes. Corking of intersections would be replaced by stopping and waiting.

This would be pointless without 100 riders each week.

How does that sound Eliza?
Working up to the 100 is an optiion of course.


Hi MG,
Sorry about not responding to your post.
I figured it was time to start a new thread.
I figured it was best to not start a new thread with a quote from another thread.
And I figured you'd post it again.

In response:

I don't think there's really any use trying to figure out 'rules' for riders to adhere to.
I think there can be suggestions made about how the ride will go - perhaps best to do on the day - but to have expectations that everyone will behave in a certain way because it is some peoples preferred way is, i think, unrealistic... and because of that will result in anger and/or disappointment in the case that people don't adhere.

So that's my thoughts regarding your comments on road rules and corking.
Personally, if that's the way the ride goes (no corking, no 'illegal' activity) i would go along with it...

but i'd be much happier with corking and running the occasional red light with a bunch of riders.

As for the route.

Sameish comment. CM's I've been on have, as far as i've known, gone with the flow of the riders at the front rather than having a stuck-to route agreed on at the start.
So i guess it wouldn't be a problem to go the way you want providing you're at the front leading the way, as it were.

As for day and time.
Again, I'm a traditionalist, so i'd be wanting for CM to meet on the last friday of the month, around 5pm.

Although your suggestion of once weekly ridings sound ok,
I can't promise i'd make it every week.

I don't think there's any need for 100 people minimum.
When i went in sydney there was only about 20, and we still did ok,

cheers,
e
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Postby winona_rider » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:34 pm

hey eliza - soz i have been silent so far...
but i fully support you.

pretty much everything we take for granted these days has been achieved by struggle - not by playing by the rules.

it's goody-two-shoes like kalgrm that really stagnate progress. but he is an awsm bike rider too - so i respect his point of view.

anyway... i participated in that "protest" ride at the RBH a few months back. and i really like the idea of CM.

so i am in.

totally.
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Postby eliza » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:39 pm

nice :D
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Postby beauyboy » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:02 pm

I'm sorry but I can't support this without a truly set goal without just saying greater acceptance.

There was a set goal for a privious ride. So what is the Goal of this ride?

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Postby Kalgrm » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:26 pm

winona_rider wrote:....

it's goody-two-shoes like kalgrm that really stagnate progress. but he is an awsm bike rider too - so i respect his point of view.

....

Just who is this imposter? Is there another Kalgrm around? This one's not much of a bike rider .... :(

Good luck with the ride.

Cheers,
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Postby eliza » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:31 pm

Kalgrm wrote:
winona_rider wrote:....

it's goody-two-shoes like kalgrm that really stagnate progress. but he is an awsm bike rider too - so i respect his point of view.

....

Just who is this imposter? Is there another Kalgrm around? This one's not much of a bike rider .... :(

Good luck with the ride.

Cheers,
Graeme


awww
your sad face makes me sad... :(
please give a happy one!
and i promise i wont break any laws tomorrow!
i wont even ride on the footpath!!!
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Postby Pax » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:45 am

eliza wrote:and i promise i wont break any laws tomorrow!
i wont even ride on the footpath!!!


Remember: Its not illegal to ride on the footpath in Qld :)

Great to have seen this discussion on both threads. Gotta love the tanacity shown on all sides too.

Having said I had mixed feelings re CMs but that I was disappointed to see that CMs no longer happenned in Bris, I'll be in for a new startup and see how it goes.

No social change process is pure and perfect, and unoffencive to all people, but there is a balance to that too.

Re time and place I'd prefer the usual CM process for last Fridays. I would rarely be able to make it if it was earlier than 5pm.
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Postby AUbicycles » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:03 am

Hello,
this has been one of the more active discussions and though I am not based in Qld have had a look through it.

CM is not looked upon favourably from the outside and from the inside a lot of people think they are riding to cause chaos rather than achieve an ultimate goal of cycling advocacy and rights.

Eliza as the post starter is from OS and new to Australia and I think pro-cycling efforts should be congratulated - this site is also cycling advocacy orientated. In recent years in Australia there has been much more government and cycling group communication - for example in Sydney the Cycling Strategy which give cycles better and safer access.

What is the history of cycling advocacy in Brisbane? Are there currently efforts, clubs, groups in place in brisbane which are already on their way to achieving the same goals and already have contact with community and government bodies. It would just be a shame to badly impact on other efforts, you know how the media is and the current common perception of cycling by the driving public - get in touch with other groups and bodies first - chat with the right people and find out how you can unite.

Cheers
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Postby MountGower » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:21 am

Pax wrote:
Remember: Its not illegal to ride on the footpath in Qld
Yes it is.

AUBicycles wrote:
What is the history of cycling advocacy in Brisbane?
Our advocate offers cheap liability insurance and organises novelty events over distances that do not warrant attendance. I get the impression that in order to protect their funding they really don't do anything that will actually make a difference for cyclists.
That ridiculous death trap hanging from the side of the Gateway Bridge duplication is testiment to that.
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Postby beauyboy » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:18 pm

Lets clear one thing up first.
A cyclist is legally entitled to ride on a footpath unless it is signed otherwise. That has been law for almost as long as I have been alive.

Second
I do agree with Mount that yes BQ has been lacking in speaking out against the Governments in the past few years but does not mean we are banging our heads against the walls. Some of us are in meetings with project developers and Architects on how best to reach solutions.

Third
We do have politicens that will lisen and do something. Cr Helen Abraham is an excellent example of that. The Chair of sustainable transport may not be a cyclist herself but her family rides.

Donald
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Postby Kalgrm » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:15 pm

winona wrote:pretty much everything we take for granted these days has been achieved by struggle - not by playing by the rules.

It's a generally held belief that Melbourne is a fairly good place to ride these days; one of the better capital cities of Australia. It wasn't always so. Victorian cyclists have the luxury of being represented by a very strong and clever cycling advocacy group called Bicycle Victoria.

For more than 20 years, they've been niggling at politicians to make sure roads are designed from the outset to accommodate all types of traffic, including cyclists. It's now government policy to ensure all new arterial roads are constructed with a lane that is wide enough for a car and a cyclists to co-exist.

On some older arterial roads (eg St Kilda Road), they've closed the left lane to car traffic and reserved it for parking and bicycle traffic.

As a result, more cyclists use the roads for commuting, making them more common for drivers to see and making the ride safer for cyclists. That in turn means more cyclists will use the roads ... and so on ad infinitum ...

Bicycle Victoria has effected permanent change in government policy through strong advocacy and by consulting the people they represent. They work with the people who make the laws and control the road infrastructure funding to ensure the group they represent survives (literally).

New cyclists in Victoria may indeed take their road systems for granted. Bicycle Victoria struggled for years to achieve the results cyclists now enjoy. They played within the rules to do it. Maybe they were prepared to work harder - and for longer - than people who think breaking road rules en masse will achieve any lasting outcomes.

If you dislike the advocacy group you now have, get your hands dirty and take them over. Join the group, get elected to office and start working with the pollies to effect real and lasting change.

Cheers,
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Postby beauyboy » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:12 pm

HERE HERE!!

Instead of just complaining, do some real advocasy work.

Donald
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Postby AUbicycles » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:20 pm

Good point, volunteering for a good cause is not without sacrifice and there are a lot of defeats on the way. It is a hard road always pushing a good cause over the years, keeping the ideas fresh and avoiding corrupting or compromising the greater plan.
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Postby aet4016 » Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:30 am

Like many others I have been following the development of this thread with interest.

One aspect of the proposed 'critical mass' ride that I still fail to understand is why it needs to be carried out in a manner guaranteed to annoy other road users in the worst possible manner. 'Corking', running red lights and stop signs and taking up entire lanes during a congested rush hour hardly seems to emphasise the positive aspects of cycling. If the appearance of a mass demonstration is what is desired - then why not obtain a permit?

I commute to work over a mix of dedicated and shared paths as well as road-side bike lanes, 'shared roads' (yes, they do exist) and normal roads. When on a road I seem to be able to coexist with other traffic without problems, in the same way that I coexist with pedestrians and other cyclists on the (crowded) Coronation Drive path.

I also take part in local road-racing events, for which obtaining a permit is becoming progressively more difficult. I am concerned that a 'critical mass' ride promotes the perception of cyclists on the road as a nuisance, to the detriment of all cyclists.

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Postby Pax » Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:03 am

MountGower wrote:Pax wrote:
Remember: Its not illegal to ride on the footpath in Qld
Yes it is.


No, seriously it is perfectly legal, this misunderstanding often comes up.

Just so Qlders can be confident of it: See Qld Govt Road Rules for Bikes Section 288
"Cyclists of any age are allowed to ride on the footpath unless prohibited by a "NO BICYCLES" sign- you must give way to pedestrians and ride in a manner that does not inconvenience or endanger other footpath users"

I can't post the link for some reason but there is a Qld Govt site that states this explicitly. Just google Road rules for cyclists qld.

Having said that , I'm not a fan of riding on the footpath generally!! But lets not hijack this thread.

I think that the recent posts re how to advocate effectively is crucial regarding this CM issue. However, any discussion of CM is a discussion about social change and there is space for a variety of social action strategies other than formal advocacy in social change. CM has a place in that.

This ongoing discussion is a great forum for people to decide if it fits for them. It won't end up being a simple black or white choice though!
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Postby beauyboy » Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:42 am

Oh why do people keep bringing this up
Pax is right and here is the link http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/Home/Ge ... _cyclists/

I am not saying CM type rides do not have a place but only as a last resort just as unions generally use it (protests) after negotioations have broken down.
I also believe CM type rides need a focused target eg facilities along a cirtain corridor and again after negotitions have broken down. Don't just say hay there is nothing here along this corridor lets protest because unless you have had a repeated contact with the body that is responsable for the lack of the provisions they will not know what you want.

Just saying "hay we want better provisions for us" will result in windy shared paths that are no good for commuting or .5m bike lanes that end dangerously. Communication is the key to results not protests.

Donald
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Postby Pax » Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:53 pm

:D thanks for the link beauyboy, one more post and I'll be allowed to put in links too apparently! WOW :P LOL
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Postby eliza » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:27 pm

AUbicycles wrote:
Eliza as the post starter is from OS and new to Australia and I think pro-cycling efforts should be congratulated.



true, i should be congratulated :wink:
but who said i was from OS/new to Australia?

Hi Christopher, and everyone,
sorry i've been absent,
have been busy
will be back with a vengeance over the next 20 minutes or so,

e
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Postby eliza » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:30 pm

Kalgrm wrote:It's a generally held belief that Melbourne is a fairly good place to ride these days; one of the better capital cities of Australia. It wasn't always so. Victorian cyclists have the luxury of being represented by a very strong and clever cycling advocacy group called Bicycle Victoria.

...

New cyclists in Victoria may indeed take their road systems for granted. Bicycle Victoria struggled for years to achieve the results cyclists now enjoy. They played within the rules to do it. Maybe they were prepared to work harder - and for longer - than people who think breaking road rules en masse will achieve any lasting outcomes.


and how's CM going in Melbourne?
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Postby eliza » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:43 pm

aet4016 wrote:
One aspect of the proposed 'critical mass' ride that I still fail to understand is why it needs to be carried out in a manner guaranteed to annoy other road users in the worst possible manner. 'Corking', running red lights and stop signs and taking up entire lanes during a congested rush hour hardly seems to emphasise the positive aspects of cycling. If the appearance of a mass demonstration is what is desired - then why not obtain a permit?



Hi Andrew,
Re what CM looks likes:
While there has been discussion about CMers "running red lights" "going through stop signs" and "corking". This really has to be put in perspective.
During CM it's not a case of 'let's run every red light we come across' but a case of 'the light's turned orange while 2/3rds of us are through, lets get the last 1/3rd to come through too'
The POINT of CM is not to run red lights and go through stop signs, but... that CAN be a by-product of keeping the mass together, which IS the point of CM.

Same goes for corking. Most of the time you don't need to cork, as cars are waiting (as they should be) for the cyclists to pass!
The only time that corking is necessary is when a car, at a particular intersection, isn't likely to wait.
(AS THEY SHOULD!)
which they usually do.

Same goes for taking up "entire lanes" - yes, if there's a lot of us :D we'll take up an entire lane! would it really make sense to ride single file?
Cars take up "entire lanes" all the time! often with only one person!
while bikes have to ride off to the side?!

that, to me, is the mad part... not 30 cyclists taking up an entire lane (for one hour, one day of the month).

I also think we're being a little hard on motorists.
Do they really hate cyclists so much?
Are they really constantly on the verge of losing their !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !!?
i mean, they must have some patience...! what with dealing with traffic, roadworks etc every driving day.
why do we assume they'll have no patience for us?

more from me shortly
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Postby eliza » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:56 pm

beauyboy wrote:I'm sorry but I can't support this without a truly set goal without just saying greater acceptance.

There was a set goal for a privious ride. So what is the Goal of this ride?


hi beauyboy and others who have made similar comments...

i don't understand why there has to be a 'goal' to go for a ride?!
alright, i cycle to work and there's a goal in that, i.e. getting to work.
but sometime i cycle without any goal.
do i need to have a goal to go for a ride?

why does CM need a goal?
why can't we just go for a ride together?

i am all for lobbying...
and it seems the perfect time for it what with:

high petrol prices
fat people
and a cooking earth

i think people (and governments?) now are really open now to new solutions, to change, to getting out of their cars!
and, well, what do you know it?
we have the solution.

so yes, let's lobby!
i am up for that.

we could talk about it after CM?

but lets also have a little fun once a month?!
it doesn't take much... just a group of people dressing up (optional...) and riding through the city together...

no worries about other traffic.

cycling is fun! not just work.

and it's not just fun on the leisure cycleways... it's also fun on the city streets!
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Postby eliza » Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:03 pm

oh, and guess what i found out today!?

Critical Mass already happens in Brisbane :D

Next one:

when: September 26, meet at 5.15pm, depart at 5.30pm

where: meet at Queen's Park, corner of George and Elizabeth streets behind the casino

theme: don't dig the coal out (part of the national week of action against climate change)

(so much for my Spring theme )

and remember, you can ride for whatever reason you'd like!

would be great to put some faces to these aliases!

have a nice weekend,
e

p.s. if you can't make it this time it's the last Friday of the month, every month, same time, same place
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Postby aet4016 » Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:15 pm

Hi Andrew,
Re what CM looks likes:
While there has been discussion about CMers "running red lights" "going through stop signs" and "corking". This really has to be put in perspective.
During CM it's not a case of 'let's run every red light we come across' but a case of 'the light's turned orange while 2/3rds of us are through, lets get the last 1/3rd to come through too'
The POINT of CM is not to run red lights and go through stop signs, but... that CAN be a by-product of keeping the mass together, which IS the point of CM.
-- snip --

Eliza,
If the point of a 'critical mass' ride is for a substantial number of cyclists to demonstrate a viable alternative to cars then the event could just as readily take place on a weekend (as has already been suggested) - why does it need to take place during peak hour on a Friday afternoon?

Andrew
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