Idiotic light rail
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Idiotic light rail
Postby lobstermash » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:18 pm
Secondly, $614 million for 12.6km of tramway from Gunghalin to Civic... That's just horrendous. It was only half a decade ago that I laughed at 'Canberra Peak half-hour'. With an estimated less than 1% cost:benefit, sadly they'd be better off just widening a certain road... again.
For those interested in getting around without being trapped in a metal box, it costs approximatey $1.5 million per km to build off-road shared paths in most Australian cities. Unfortunately we don't have anywhere to put over 400km of shared path that could be built with light rail money (that we don't have). And with the estimated saving in various costs to a state/territory government of around $1.40 per km travelled by bicycle, what on earth would our little territory do with all that unspent money if people started using such infratructure???
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby Ross » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:03 am
I agree that the light rail is a waste of money (I live in Gungahlin...). Who's going to spend 15 mins driving from their outer Gungahlin suburb to EPIC to park their car and spend another 20 mins or so on a tram to Civic where they get off and either spend another 15 mins walking to their office or then get on a bus and go to Woden/Tuggernaong/airport/other destination? They may as well stay in their car and drive door to door in half an hour (Civic, a bit longer obviously for other areas). OK they will probably have to pay for parking, but the alternative is to pay for tram fare (+ buses if going further than Civic) which will work out much the same cost with far less convenience.
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby ACT SC600 » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:54 pm
Cheers
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby lobstermash » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:59 pm
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby skull » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:30 pm
As a contractor I am now going to be $15k a year out of pocket from the changes to the payroll tax exemption to fund this bloody thing.
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby nescius » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:41 pm
Tell me about it, this came up just after I'd signed a 12 month extension... too late to renegotiate my rate! Now I'm stuck with a massive pay cutskull wrote:Don't talk to me about this white elephant.
As a contractor I am now going to be $15k a year out of pocket from the changes to the payroll tax exemption to fund this bloody thing.
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby Ross » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:26 pm
They could just buy a few more buses and hire a few more drivers for a fraction of the cost of the trams. The trams can only travel on the dedicated tram lines, buses can go wherever there is a road.ACT SC600 wrote:While light rail may not be the answer... The question needs to change... Not how many cars can we fit down that road.... How many ppl can we fit... The bike is not always the answer but using bus, road, rail and bike (or a combination) may be the answer.... I'm actually all for it... The amount of ppl that can fit on light rail compared to a car/bus..... But that's my opinion
Cheers
Maybe govco needs to encourage car pooling by giving incentives such as tax breaks.
Also tax breaks to people like ourselves that ride bikes to work.
Only problem with tax breaks is they need to recoup the money from us in some other way. Maybe they can put the price of cigarettes up to $50 a pack!
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby lobstermash » Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:15 pm
FYI my post, in case it get gets deleted:
Why trams? Why not dedicated bus ways? At the end of the bus ways, said buses could then drive on (shock horror) roads that already exist... Some actual serious investment in bicycle paths would be a nice and cheap alternative. According to the Australian Government's Active Travel report (July 2013), it costs $1.5 million per km to build off road shared paths, and saves (mostly the) state/territory government $1.43 per km cycled or $2.12 per km walked. In France, the government is paying people to cycle to work (0.25 Euro/$AU0.36 per km). For the ~$600 mil proposed to be spent on the ~12 km first stage of light rail, 166,666,666,667 km of cycling could be purchased, which would save the ACT government $2,383,333,333 gross, or $1,783,333,333 net assuming full take-up. What was the cost:benefit of light rail again???
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby Thoglette » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:33 pm
While bike facilities need fighting for, you're not going to find many supporters for beating up light rail from anywhere larger than Canberra.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby lobstermash » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:59 pm
Fo Riz? Have you visited Adelaide in the last few years?Thoglette wrote: you're not going to find many supporters for beating up light rail from anywhere larger than Canberra.
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby Howzat » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:10 pm
I mean, do you think light rail means the end of bike paths? Why is it reflexively one against the other? Don't get that kind of thinking.
...although I will say southsiders may have this as a case... if the Gungahlin route up Flemington road raises property values there by about 6%, that means Gungahlinites alone will have pocketed the entire $614 million public cost of construction as private capital gains.
That's a sweet deal. Hope they remember to thank the Vikings!
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby ColinOldnCranky » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:59 am
Where did you get that? Is that CBD, inner city or general urban.lobstermash wrote:$1.5 million per km to build off-road shared paths in most Australian cities.
I ask because we in WA have been given $50,000 per km for simple PSP city area upping to $100,000 where there are particular difficulties in maintaining traffic separation (needing bridges and tunnels etc). $1.5m is 15 to 30 times that.
(My numbers from the Department of Transport at a public release of the state's draft bike plan.)
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby lobstermash » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:49 pm
I thought the $1.5 mil per km was from the Australian Government Active Transport report, but I could be mixing my sources. It included purchasing the land to build the path on. The 4 km Civic bike path loop that the ACT Government is currently building is supposed to be costing ~$6 mil.
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby Thoglette » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:32 am
And that is a "good start" - allocating sufficient space is the number one issue.
And the reason light rail is always "too expensive" - either the land is cheap but there's "no demand' or it's an expensive buy-back with the added joy of "brownfields" construction (think sewer and power realignment).
I'm not down on using buses in a dedicated space allocated for a future light rail system.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby Ross » Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:07 pm
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby Thoglette » Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:56 pm
Now, tell me again: How much profit does NSW's RMS or the roads part of TAMS make every year?Ross wrote:.... ACTION buses run at a multi-million dollar loss each year, how is a tram system that can only travel 10km in each direction on one particular route going to go?
Thought so.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby citywomble » Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:11 pm
Yes, and that's called a subsidy.ACTION buses run at a multi-million dollar loss each year,
Funny that when you consider the much greater sums spent (from general revenue not road tax) that are actually a massive subsidy to private individuals to drive air conditioned armchairs. I am sure if the true cost, per person, was calculated the private vehicle subsidy would be higher per mile than PT.
It's about time our pollies grew up and and did the maths.
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby Thoglette » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:47 pm
And probably the only silver lining to the loss of car manufacturing jobs is that those jobs will no longer be biasing other government policy decisions.citywomble wrote:It's about time our pollies grew up and and did the maths.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby lobstermash » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:09 pm
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby m@ » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:38 pm
80,000 people pack Gold Coast trams for its first day of passenger services and more crowd on today as paid services kick off
/walks away whistling nonchalantly
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby jindydiver » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:32 am
With the changes to rates (removal of stamp duty and increases to rates) the people who "enjoy" the increase in land values will also soon be helping to fill the budget hole this light rail is digging.Howzat wrote:
...although I will say southsiders may have this as a case... if the Gungahlin route up Flemington road raises property values there by about 6%, that means Gungahlinites alone will have pocketed the entire $614 million public cost of construction as private capital gains.
That's a sweet deal. Hope they remember to thank the Vikings!
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Re: Idiotic light rail
Postby Ross » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:55 am
Not sure if this means they will have a dedicated carriage specifically for bikes or just a rack on the front like buses have now. I'm betting on the latter.
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