Cyclists passing cyclists

dasinc
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Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby dasinc » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

G'day,

I got abused by a cyclist other other day as I swerved (still within the left psp lane) to go around some debris. This guy got right in my face about it. We had quite the robust discussion about each others various short comings. Anyway, I was just curious as to what others think.. He abused me for swerving (within my lane 30cm at most I'd guess.) and I abused him for passing too close, and without warning.

Quite often I get passed by cyclists (I am slow) in my own lane. I think that is too close....if there is space, why not use it? We want cars to give us a meter, why can't we give each other a bit of space as well?

Thoughts?
Last edited by dasinc on Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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HappyHumber
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby HappyHumber » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:18 pm

perhaps it was more you swerved out to avoid the debris unannounced or without a quick shoulder check yourself first; just as the overtaking bloke could/should arguably call as they're about to over take.

Sad that I'm experiencing and hearing a tad more inter cyclist agro of late. Just like road rage; everyone gets on the defensive first as adrenaline shoots up and tempers flare.

The lines of 'us and them' are blurring.
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NASHIE
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby NASHIE » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:01 pm

Sorry to hear agro on the PSPs, but your right and the passing rider needs to pull his head in. Riding with a group etc you need to hold your line or you could cause a crash, but passing other riders, peds, cars etc etc you need to give them room as they are an unknown.

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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Scott_C » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:10 pm

Overtaking riders should wait until there is sufficient space and give an audible indication that they are going to pass ("on yer right" or ring their bell).

Equally, if you are going to significantly change your line you should also be giving prior warning that it is going to happen if at all possible (audible or hand signal).

Finally, we all stuff some things up sometimes and should remember to not get too high and mighty about it (mainly aimed at the guy overtaking and riders in general).

Hugor
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Hugor » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:40 pm

If there’s ample time then a standard road signal would be appropriate and expected from the front rider Frequently though PSPs deliver sudden obstacles and urgent evasive action is required.
Such is the danger of riding cycle paths.
When overtaking you really should be making sure the coast is clear and this includes anticipating any obstacles in front of the rider your passing.
The responsibility lies with the guy overtaking in my opinion.

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:15 am

Scott_C wrote:..... and give an audible indication that they are going to pass ("on yer right" or ring their bell).....


There needs to be an audible from the passing rider, "on your right" is my preference and is normally enough, and better than a bell which causes a slow (possibly new) rider to head-check or lose directional integrity...
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Mububban
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Mububban » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:09 am

If you stayed entirely within your lane, you did nothing wrong. The guy overtaking was being a tool.

When I overtake other cyclists on PSP, I'll swing right over as far as I can go into the other lane to avoid just such an occasion. We all know how many unexpected obstacles the PSP can produce.
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Red Rider
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Red Rider » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:29 pm

Agree with Mububban's words, your lane is your lane, especially when the overtaker doesn't announce their intent with a bell or yell. You can't be expected to signal when manoeuvring around hazards every time. As the saying goes, a metre matters :)

Too often I see someone overtake another rider within a bees whisker when I'm coming the other way. I've even had two riders abreast overtaking someone whilst I'm coming the other way. I only just had bike width to get past at 30 clicks. Kamikazes

novice_101
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby novice_101 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:14 pm

I normally go with "bike back" when I'm coming up on a slower rider. Sometimes I'll also ring the bell. I find the bell can sometimes be misconstrued though, as if I'm beeping my horn saying "get out of my way", when really it's a courtesy thing. That's lead me to not use it as much.

I like to keep in mind that I may be faster than this person, but there's someone who will be faster than me too, so the "treat others as you'd like to be treated" rule comes in. As was said earlier, sometimes people react badly in the heat of the moment, which is unfortunate.

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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Knox_Harrington » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:34 pm

I ride north on the Mitchell PSP in the mornings, contra flow to the majority of CBD bound commuters. Pedestrians get close passed way too often by impatient riders as I approach in the other lane. It always seems to happen at that particularly rubbish section of path next to Britannia Reserve.

Hopefully pedestrians and cyclists will be seperated in some future iteration of the PSP. It seems that wherever a power and speed variation exists between modes of transport, conflict will inevitably arise due to an unpreventable subset of impatient jerks.

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ColinOldnCranky
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:17 pm

NASHIE wrote:Sorry to hear agro on the PSPs, but your right and the passing rider needs to pull his head in. Riding with a group etc you need to hold your line or you could cause a crash, but passing other riders, peds, cars etc etc you need to give them room as they are an unknown.

Agreed. Any user of roads and paths should not assume that the person in front will never ever have a need, unplanned, to deviate at least a small amount.

Hell, you'd think that riders would we a little wary of a waddling wobbling unicycle but even I have riders passing by me with zero margin.

If a rider does not have the space to get past even when there is another rider coming towards them then they need to accept full responsibility for any resulting collision. It is NOT the fault of the rider in front who is, after all, only seeing half the picture and cannot always have the luxury of being able to do a head check.
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XIX
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby XIX » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:52 pm

"Bike back" is the common term when used to over take someone or in a group to signal someone is coming past. The psp is sufficiently wide enough for 2 each way within the "lane" so as long as you stay left so others can pass safely and they call out when coming past then issues should be at a minimum.

Ive come past you as well a few time Colin and never found you to be too far over so probably just a bad situation for all which no doubt will still happen even if all have the best of intentions.

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chuckchunder
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby chuckchunder » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:37 pm

XIX wrote:"Bike back" is the common term when used to over take someone or in a group to signal someone is coming past. The psp is sufficiently wide enough for 2 each way within the "lane" so as long as you stay left so others can pass safely and they call out when coming past then issues should be at a minimum.


I disagree. Maybe for experienced riders who are familiar with road rider etiquette and bunch riding in close quarters, but many, I would guess most, using the PSP's in Perth are not. Many riders find being passed within the lane intimidating and unnerving, even with a warning. Same goes for pedestrians.
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XIX
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby XIX » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:35 am

That doesn't mean its not wide enough. It is wide enough for 2 abreast each way safely if people keep left. The one on kwinnana fwy is for the most part anyway.

vinski
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby vinski » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:16 pm

I try to give as much room as possible on the odd occasions i do actually pass someone on the PSPs (im slow). I find by going over all the way to the right gives plenty of space when passing that in the event the other cyclist has to swerve there would still be plenty of room. I dont understand why someone would pass closely by unless a bike or ped was in the oncoming lane. Even then, it would probably be better to slow down for 5 secs and then pass. Just my 2c

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Thoglette
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Thoglette » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:27 pm

vinski wrote: I dont understand why someone would pass closely by unless a bike or ped was in the oncoming lane. Even then, it would probably be better to slow down for 5 secs and then pass. Just my 2c

Same reason they buzz you when driving their car. MGIF. NOW!
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby NASHIE » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:55 pm

Thoglette wrote:
vinski wrote: I dont understand why someone would pass closely by unless a bike or ped was in the oncoming lane. Even then, it would probably be better to slow down for 5 secs and then pass. Just my 2c

Same reason they buzz you when driving their car. MGIF. NOW!


I've had riders (wheel suckers) lockup and nearly rear end me as i slow for peds with oncoming traffic. You get some madly ringing there bell which i'm sure the expection is for the ped to get of the path. As mentioned above we all get it wrong from time to time. Varying speeds sometimes make closing meet points hard to judge. A sorry or hand wave is all takes to keep the peace, which seems hard for some.

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Tequestra
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Tequestra » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:33 pm

Hugor wrote:When overtaking you really should be making sure the coast is clear and this includes anticipating any obstacles in front of the rider your passing.
The responsibility lies with the guy overtaking in my opinion.

Thank you Mr Hugor. This is what I was thinking too, although it is seemingly beyond the usual rider/driver awareness required to obtain a drivers' license, and also that of some inexperienced cyclists, as exemplified in this thread.

I do not see it as 100% responsibility for one party or the other, but the most responsibility technically rests with the overtaking vehicle. The exception being those who ride carelessly veering across the road or path with no good reason. Potholes are good reason, and the one behind should be aware of the obvious need to veer right to avoid such obstacles, even if a 4x4 could easily drive straight over said potholes.

In my opinion, there is a much greater requirement for an overtaking rider to give audible warning to the rider in front, and if it is a narrow PSP then best to slow down and tailgate for a little until there is good clear road and the front rider is clearly following a straight line on the left.

It is not a race. There is no hurry to pass other riders. If someone is in a hurry, then they should have taken their helicopter instead of their bike. ;-)

PS: Just a thought. On the roads, cyclists usually hear cars and trucks approaching from behind because of the sound of their engines and exhaust notes. When most cars on the road are electric however, that audible warning to the cyclist that a car is about to pass will be practically silenced. There is going to have to be some change in the conduct of city cyclists or else there might need to be little piezo buzzers or some kind of minimally-pollutant noise for big electric cars. It is also food for thought for electric cyclists with stronger legs than mine. Nobody likes surprises.
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Caelum
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Caelum » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:13 pm

I dunno about anyone else, but i go with the one standard that we are all required to follow - road rules.

If i'm overtaking someone and they're *visibly* much slower than myself, i'll normally not give them any warning, but will give them a very wide berth. I'll go right into the right hand lane, usually in the middle or far side of it. Reasoning being that if they don't know i'm there, they'll just trundle along and not change their behaviour. They're likely to be an inexperienced rider, and any form of communication to them is likely to illicit a change in that behaviour.

If they're only slightly slower than myself, then i'll usually say 'on your right' *before* moving past them or even preparing to, just so that if they do react in some way, i can see that reaction before it's too late for me to evade any change in their behaviour.

Regardless of the situation, i'll NEVER overtake unless the right hand lane (assuming it exists) is clear, and it's safe to do so. ie, no intersections, no merging of paths, etc.

Just like in a car, you don't overtake someone and stay in the lane, even if it's 'big enough' to fit two bikes abreast. It's just not necessary. Take an extra 5 seconds, wait until it's safe, and THEN overtake.

It's your life you're putting in danger, afterall.

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ColinOldnCranky
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:02 pm

chuckchunder wrote:
XIX wrote:"Bike back" is the common term when used to over take someone or in a group to signal someone is coming past. The psp is sufficiently wide enough for 2 each way within the "lane" so as long as you stay left so others can pass safely and they call out when coming past then issues should be at a minimum.


I disagree. Maybe for experienced riders who are familiar with road rider etiquette and bunch riding in close quarters, but many, I would guess most, using the PSP's in Perth are not. Many riders find being passed within the lane intimidating and unnerving, even with a warning. Same goes for pedestrians.

Ageed.

But to XIX, even if one does know (I know what they mean), a shout of "bike back" or "On your right" or "move over moron" does not elicit anything like the clear understanding from me as does an early ring of the bell.

Oops, forgot, it is against the etiquette of Cool for a cyclist to retain a bell on his bars.
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NASHIE
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby NASHIE » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:38 pm

I like riding late afternoon on the PSP network as most wannabes are long gone . Anyway last night/afternoon i caught up to a bunch in bayswater/maylands that were sitting at a speed slower than mine, i was just tempo riding not trying to catch them and not wanting to sit on called bike back 2 or 3 times as i safely passed the group of about 10-12 up the slight rise to Third ave bridge. Didn't look back but they were well gapped. As per usual :roll: being passed by a single rider gets a bunch wound up and next thing near East Pert train station i have one rider on the drops chasing, passing (in the lane) and dropping in front, obviously unable to go on with his effort :roll: and then second rider tries to pass (in the lane) and drop in on his mates wheel :evil: Wasn't going to happen and a bit of handle bar rubbing the young fella got the message and drops back. No call or bike back that they wanted to 'RACE' and no change in pace by me. That sort of crap is what you pin a number on a Sunday for. It got me thinking about this thread and how less experienced riders and peds must get really intimidated by larger groups that ride in this manner on the PSPs, which IMO is not appropriate. Fortunately they turned right at the east perth T junction and i turned left and enjoyed the rest of my ride.
Last edited by NASHIE on Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

commute
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby commute » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:40 pm

NASHIE wrote:
I've had riders (wheel suckers) lockup and nearly rear end me as i slow for peds with oncoming traffic.


One afternoon this summer I encountered the cycling equivalent of the freeway driver who tail gates and changes lanes every few seconds only to find them selves in a worse position than if they had stayed in one lane.

My commuter bike was out of service so I was on my old DH bike. This guy was right up my rear trying to pass me on the causeway bridge, but there was a stream of pedestrians and bikes in both directions making it too hard. I got round a couple of pedestrians on the first bridge when there was just enough gap for one and he got stuck, I could hear him cursing away behind me.
He caught up again quickly to my slow but consistent pace of course and was back at it on my rear.

At the start of the island I was following another cyclist who overtook some walkers but I could see the gap wasn't big enough for me to safely get through due to oncoming traffic, so I launched in to the grass on the left as I didn't want to lose momentum. I heard loud swearing and skidding as Mr tailgater locked up his brakes. He had been so close on my tail he couldn't see the pedestrians.

Tailgater finally got around me half way over the second bridge muttering that I was an idiot for overtaking on the left. (Never mind that I was much further away from the pedestrians on the grass than the other side of the path is)

After riding down the stairs at the end of the causeway, he ended up stuck behind me again briefly as we passed under the causeway bridge for one final rage. There was a 1/3 chance that he was heading in that direction, unlucky!

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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby NASHIE » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:15 pm

Do a section of path on the cx bike north of Midland which has many peds with dogs. Rarely see bikes, so they are walk all over the path which dosent really bother me as i just hit the grass left or right leaving plenty of room. Plenty of gasps, and even the occasional sorry for taking up the whole path with dogs and leads :D

Don't mind giving hand signals to following rider if they say hello or let you know they want to sit on or take a turn etc, but agree those riders that sit on unannounced can just sit back and look out for themselves.

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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby pedalmonkey » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:50 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
chuckchunder wrote:Oops, forgot, it is against the etiquette of Cool for a cyclist to retain a bell on his bars.


The uncool factor really isn't the reason. If you ring a bell, most people (whether bikes or pedestrians), slowly turn their heads, gape at you and wander into the middle of the path while doing so. Occasionally they even try to get out of the way by moving into the opposite lane, which is really the worst possible thing.

XIX
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby XIX » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:14 pm

pedalmonkey wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:
chuckchunder wrote:Oops, forgot, it is against the etiquette of Cool for a cyclist to retain a bell on his bars.


The uncool factor really isn't the reason. If you ring a bell, most people (whether bikes or pedestrians), slowly turn their heads, gape at you and wander into the middle of the path while doing so. Occasionally they even try to get out of the way by moving into the opposite lane, which is really the worst possible thing.


Yup, not to mention at 40km/h plus the last thing I want to be doing is fumbling around to ring my bell. If I dont get a response from the party in front from my shouting I generally slow down and assume they may be unaware of my presence and so expect random motions.

I have a bell on my bike and its almost invisible to most so I dont care about that, but I dont find I get a suitable response from that in most instances.

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