Karrakatta Underpass

Karrakatta Underpass

Postby CycleSnail » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:09 pm

How do you feel about the indifferent treatment of cyclists at the (soon to be opened) Karrakatta underpass.
Get the details at
http://bta-bulletin.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... d-for.html

Mod edit: Changed link to put to the actual article.
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by BNA » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:21 pm

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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby cavebear2 » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:21 pm

So not much consultation with cycling bodies? What's new?

"140 design faults" can't all be PSP related.
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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby Kalgrm » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:22 pm

I have no problems with the overpass. I just keep riding on the road, as I'm entitled to do. The "cyclists' bypass" is a joke, but the road's good. :)

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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby Aushiker » Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:32 pm

G'day

Like Graeme I stick to the road going down into the roundabout and out again. Heading west, I don't bother with the DUP and heading east there is bicycle lane. My only concerns are the lack of a bicycle lane westbound and the potential problems that may occur once the actual underpass is open. Roundabouts are never my favourite intersection and I don't think the design of this one is going to change my view.

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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby DAVCLARE » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:13 am

I came that way this morning. Whats with the new concrete verge in the middle of the cycle way heading down to the underpass.
Covered in plastic so only just recently done i think .
I think it is more dangerous to stop and cross on to the new PSP than to continue down the underpass and up the other side .
I will continue to use the road also .

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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby roller » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:45 am

was heading towards fremantle on this stretch on sunday, saw the PSP sign saying "FREMANTLE xkms" so i thought, "oh great, new PSP linking up to the path from lock street train station, i'll get on and check it out"

so i slowed down, turned around, go on the PSP.


30 seconds later i was flushed back out onto the road.


:roll:

won't make that mistake again.
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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby Aushiker » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:46 am

DAVCLARE wrote: Whats with the new concrete verge in the middle of the cycle way heading down to the underpass.
Covered in plastic so only just recently done i think


Hi David

Haven't seen that. Is that on the northern side, the eastbound lane? Would it be a divider between the vehicles and the bicycle lane? Like that is found near the Left Bank at north Fremantle?

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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby DAVCLARE » Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:14 pm

Hi Andrew ,
Heading from Fremantle back to Perth , it is definitely a new curb i think as it is in the middle of the current cycle lane .
The distance from the new curb to the left edge of the cycle way seems to small to be the same as near the Left Bank .
Should have stopped and taken a photo, but i was getting rain pounded at the time .
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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby Aushiker » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:13 pm

DAVCLARE wrote:Hi Andrew ,
Heading from Fremantle back to Perth , it is definitely a new curb i think as it is in the middle of the current cycle lane .
The distance from the new curb to the left edge of the cycle way seems to small to be the same as near the Left Bank .


That does not sound good. Must go and take a look when I can.

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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby fixed » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:51 pm

Has anyone ridden the (bl)underpass since the reopening?

Particularly the alleged cycle path - which MRD indicated in a Subi Post article in january
“We did find what we considered to be errors in the design plans.
“We pointed those out to all the parties involved and we insisted
on changes, primarily on the cycle path.
“We insisted on changes and additional works to make it a lot safer
and more user-friendly.

Because when I rode past on Saturday the absolute crap job done on the cycle path had not been corrected.

<edit-peeve corrected thanks Andrew>
Last edited by fixed on Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby Sandgroper » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:42 pm

Hi There

First post here but been lurking for a while.

I use Stubbs Terrace 3 -4 times a week. The underpass was OK before it was opened to traffic but now it is to be avoided when heading west. It is still OK eastbound as entry to the roundabout is much slower and there is more visibility.

Problem with the PSP (as I see it) is that you have to exit at right angles to the road which puts you in the path of vehicles on the road. It would be OK if it "merged" with the bike lane or better still joined up with the PSP further down Stubbs Terrace.

Would be good if the designers actually used the facilities they implement, no doubt their intentions are good but the execution could be better.
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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby RobertFrith » Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:05 am

Sandgroper wrote:Problem with the PSP (as I see it) is that you have to exit at right angles to the road which puts you in the path of vehicles on the road

Aaaand they've got that plastic stuff laminated on the path at the aforementioned exit, hit that at an angle in the wet (which you must do to avoid crossing the lane of of traffic) and, well it's trés slippery. You run the risk of falling over straight into traffic. Dumb. What's more if you're trying to use it as an entry to the path (heading into town) you have to negotiate a bl**dy traffic island. No wonder we're all riding on the road!

There was similar setup a few years ago where the bike path exits onto Curtin Avenue by Grant St Station. Remedial works were carried out after a couple of months improving matters greatly. It's still a mystery to my why the road builders can't connect a few more dots of the path while they've got the tools out of the shed on these major roadworks. They do seem to achieve the bare minimum.
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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby Aushiker » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:02 am

G'day

I strongly suggest that those who have experience with this PSP exit and have constructive suggestions let the relevant council/councils know your views. They may (Town of Claremont did when I logged a hazard report over the new bit of path near the Claremont Showgrounds) actually correct the issue if it is brought to their attention.

Regards
Andrew
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Jessica Rabbit

Postby Thoglette » Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:30 pm

RobertFrith wrote:It's still a mystery to my why the road builders can't connect a few more dots of the path while they've got the tools out of the shed on these major roadworks. They do seem to achieve the bare minimum.


Jessica Roadbuilder: I'm not bad. I'm just contracted that way.

The council doesn't ask, so the lowest bidder leaves it out.
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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby andyh » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:02 am

Cycled past the underpass yesterday and took this photo for you all. This is looking west along Stubbs Terrace. It appears that the verge on the east-bound lane has been widened. This is probably part of the remedial works carried out to get the underpass open.

You can see on the photo where the original kerb line was located (foreground of photo) and the new widened section that extends the width of the verge. The sand in-fill clearly shows the new bit.

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Unfortunately, this curb and verge in-fill has been placed directly over the cycle lane, leaving the cycle lane considerably narrowed and almost useless. You can't see from the photo but the extended verge runs all the way along both the up and down slopes, and from memory, around the outside edge of the roundabout.

It's probably been done to reduce debris being washed off the steep bank and onto the roadway but whatever the reason, it's another great example of cycling facilities being at the bottom of the pile when it comes to priorities. In this case, we're even below road debris!

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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby fixed » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:04 pm

This is also the part of the ATTA course on Sunday 13th. The marshals at the roundabout are going to have their hands full.
http://www.atta.asn.au/maps/shpk.html
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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby Aushiker » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:03 pm

G'day

According to the Cambridge Post the underpass has been closed again (no through traffic from one side of the railway line to the other).

Regards
Andrew
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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby fixed » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:16 pm

what a clusterfnck
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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby Aushiker » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:06 pm

G'day

Rode through there last night west bound (yep back riding ... :)) thinking it was closed through the underpass so not as alert as I should have been and the underpass was open! Got a bit of fright as a vehicle was coming through towards me and I was not prepared. All good but.

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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby RobertFrith » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:40 am

Neddies Councils commenced work on improvements to the PSP/ Stubbs Tce interfaces on Monday. I had a (very) quick chat with one of the workers as I was passing yesterday arvo. He said they'd have it done by next week, not sure if he meant just the western interface that they're working on on now or both western and eastern. If they get it right I'll use the PSP when heading west rather than go through the roundabout.

I've been corresponding with City 'o Nedlands and am due to meet with one of their works people onsite next week. The Mayor alleged (under advice from the works folk as it turns out) that the road widths complied with some standard for car and bike as they were 3.7m wide. I couldn't believe it so I ran a tape over a couple of bits one morning and found widths down to 3.4m. If anyone would like to accompany me to this meeting drop me a PM.
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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby rolandp » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:07 am

Robert, good luck with your meeting. Will you be taking the someone from the local paper with you?
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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby RobertFrith » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 am

Update;
I met with Wayne Mo from Nedlands Council on Jan 18. The two issues I wanted to discuss with him were,
1. the fact that parts of the road are as narrow as 3.4m as against the standard of 3.7m that the council believes they are and;
2. my concerns about the remedial works being done to to the PSP/road interfaces.

Regarding point 1, Wayne didn't have a tape measure on him to verify my measurements. He said that he wouldn't be able to get back there to measure the road until early March (!). Pretty surprising since this is an(other) instance of this road not being built to the standard specified by Nedlands Council/MRD.

Regarding point 2, Wayne's personal belief is that all cyclists should be brought to a halt prior to crossing a road or entering a road from a PSP. IMO the new interfaces do nothing to improve the safety of cyclists. Wayne indicated that he had been sent photos of alternate interfaces that the senders believed were safer, but he's sticking to his story that the remedial works adhere to an MRD standard that has been signed off by a cycling organisation (I didn't think to ask which one, and truth be told he probably wouldn't know), and that he doesn't have time to check out what other councils are doing to improve cycling.

The most interesting correspondence I received in response to my letter was from Colin Barnett, Premier of our fair state and also my local member.

I quote, " It was recognised early in the planning stages that the construction of the underpass at Karrakatta would reduce the level of service enjoyed by bicycle riders using the road, due to the restricted area available and the change in road levels required. As a consequence, the provision of cycling infrastructure was included as a component of the underpass and the bridge and path connections now provide a safer alternative to negotiating the roundabout.
In the short term, due to the fact that they have been constructed in isolation, the cycling facilities provided as part of the Karrakatta underpass project do cause some inconvenience for bicycle riders travelling towards Perth.
However in the longer term, when sections of the PSP between Shenton Park Station the western end of Stubbs Terrace are constrcuted, riders will benefit from uninterrupted off-road travel between Grant St Station and Perth"

I don't know about you but I find it astonishing that they knew they were creating a problem. Not just a problem, Stubbs Terrace is significantly less safe and more difficult to navigate on a bike than it was prior to the underpass construction. With the cost of the underpass it is hard to imagine that they couldn't have sorted the link from Shenton Park Station as part of the works and extended the PSP past the Irwin Barracks gate to the west!
Even more astonishing that Barnett is willing to acknowledge the lousy treatment. Classic poli-speak where he refers to a problem as short term and a solution as long term. Anyway, I've written back to the Neddies councillors and Barnett, but I think with Post Newspapers on a bit of a cycling roll I should give them a call as well. Maybe we all should :D
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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby rolandp » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:07 am

And when riding to Perth, do they seriously expect us to cross the road, use that 'fantastic overpass', and then get back to the other side of the road again (note - haven't actually ridden to Perth, so may have missed the cycle path on the other side of the road)? Fantastic job of following this up.

PS I've got a couple of tape measures in the garage, happy to donate to Nedlands. At one time I actually had one in the pannier bag for exactly this reason, measuring the width of the path to show the actual size of the path.
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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby Aushiker » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:20 am

rolandp wrote:And when riding to Perth, do they seriously expect us to cross the road, use that 'fantastic overpass', and then get back to the other side of the road again (note - haven't actually ridden to Perth, so may have missed the cycle path on the other side of the road)?


Hi

There is no cycle path for eastbound cyclists including children riding to the Shenton Park College. They have to either stick to the road or cross over twice.

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Re: Karrakatta Underpass

Postby RobertFrith » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:53 pm

I've had a phone response from a sympathetic councillor. He's suggested attending the next Nedlands council meeting on Tuesday Feb 23 and speaking. Goes on record and ups the ante a bit.
I'm happy to do this (despite not being much of a public speaker) but it would be better coming from a Nedlands resident - PM me if you're at all interested. I would still attend as moral support :D
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