Black Spots in Perth

Black Spots in Perth

Postby CycleSnail » Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:09 pm

I have been asked for a list of black spots in Perth - from a cyclist point of view, with accidents and injuries in mind.

City West PSP had cyclist accidents, and is clearly dangerous for both people walking and people riding bicycles
Hutton Street is dangerous, but I am not sure if we actually had cyclists or pedestrians hurt (but it would only be a matter of time)
The PSP along the Kwinana Freeway has had serious accidents.

What else should go on the list?

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by BNA » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:50 pm

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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby rollin66 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:50 pm

I would consider Cranford Ave overpass a potential Black Spot due the the amount of traffic going in all directions. Not sure if there has been any accidents there but I have seen a few near misses
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby kellyu » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:33 pm

rollin66 wrote:I would consider Cranford Ave overpass a potential Black Spot due the the amount of traffic going in all directions. Not sure if there has been any accidents there but I have seen a few near misses


Oh my god yes. That one is awful.
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby rolandp » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:00 am

Parliament hill PSP. Most recent accident being earlier this week that I have seen. It is too narrow to support the number of cyclists and peds, being on a steep hill you have fast downward traffic and slow (wobbley) uphill traffic, as well as the blind spots entering from the overpass junction. Can recall seeing three accidents in the last two months.
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby paulz » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:12 am

PSP near Claremont showgrounds...blind corner along that stretch. A few of us were just talking about a recent crash at this one .

+1 for Kwinana Freeway PSP. Issues arise from a combination of traffic volume (bikes & peds), narrow path and poor rider behaviour.

Just out of interest...who is asking for the info and what is the intention behind the request? My inquisitive mind at play.
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby CycleSnail » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:24 am

paulz wrote:
Just out of interest...who is asking for the info and what is the intention behind the request? My inquisitive mind at play.


The question came from a Federal Politician and related to the way black spot funding seems to be directed only at car problem areas - he wanted to know what it would look like from a cycling perspective. I am not sure what he will do with the info ...

Thanks for the info given so far.

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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby roller » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:24 am

rolandp wrote:Parliament hill PSP. Most recent accident being earlier this week that I have seen. It is too narrow to support the number of cyclists and peds, being on a steep hill you have fast downward traffic and slow (wobbley) uphill traffic, as well as the blind spots entering from the overpass junction. Can recall seeing three accidents in the last two months.


+1

it isn't wide enough for overtaking but lots of people do it anyway (heading northwards, overtaking those who aren't as fast up the hill as they are).

have had several near misses (heading south) in "peak hour" (7-830am), on the stretch between mount street and the underpass near the lake.

have had to come to a complete stop in order to allow someone overtaking to get in front of the person they're overtaking.

tough spot to be "fixed" though, would require a lot of work to make it wider, perhaps a quicker fix of signage such as "NO OVERTAKING UNLESS SAFE"

or even "NO OVERTAKING" or something to make people think before they overtake.
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby JB » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:00 pm

on the shared path that runs parallel to Roe St - many close calls with both reckless cyclist and day dreaming peds getting off the train.
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby NewStew » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:58 pm

Thinking beyond the commuting spots like City West, Kwinana PSP etc a couple of spots that can get very exciting when do the atypical Perth weekend ride:

- Tydeman road from Port Beach then turning right to head across the old bridge. Essentially there are two options to get from Port Beach to either the Left Bank or Preston Pt Rd - either move across a lane of traffic coming around a corner with poor visibility or continue straight and go across the Stirling Hwy bridge and mix it with trucks.

- The bike path that runs around the front of the old peoples home in Alfred Cove - the only other option is to go on Canning Hwy which is fine if you are part of a larger group but that section has heaps of blind corners and is a Bike/Ped accident waiting to happen (slowly slowly slowly but not everyone does).

And the Kwinana PSP from Mt Henry to Perth MUST be widened and Peds must be separated or someone will get killed with that amount of traffic!
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby CycleSnail » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:17 pm

Excellent to get some of the more outlying dangerous spots.

Thanks,
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby Aushiker » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:12 pm

Another vote for Tydeman Road. Whilst there is a shared use path on the southern side, if you are heading south on Port Beach Road it is not an essay task to cross over to the path. Effectievely there is no safe access at all. Tydeman Road itself is dangerous as per my reported incidents. Turning right from Tydeman Road on to Queen Victoria is difficult as is accessing the path over the Stirling Highway bridge from Tydeman Road.

Another one for the northern coastal riders is the roundabout at then southern end of West Coast Drive. Really all it needs is some decent pruning of the plant life and it would make a huge difference to saftey. Well that and a speed hump to force motorists coming of West Coast Highway to actually slow down before entering the roundabout. Listening John? :wink:

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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby Kalgrm » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:09 pm

NewStew wrote:And the Kwinana PSP from Mt Henry to Perth MUST be widened and Peds must be separated or someone will get killed with that amount of traffic!


Between Mt Henry and Canning Bridge, the PSP is completely unprotected from high speed collisions with out-of-control cars heading north-bound on (off) the freeway. There are no protective barriers along that stretch of freeway and the speed limit is 100km/h. It's only a matter of time before walkers or cyclists are killed there, and it could be numerous fatalities if it's group that gets hit.

Another stretch like this is just before the Narrows, but that is "only" 80km/h on the freeway there. (I have seen a car that had ploughed through that stretch and onto the bike path.)

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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby citywomble » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:23 pm

Hi Andrew,

In answer to your question - Yes I am listening! - I agree and this is is just one part of the wider issues along the coast.

Now, to the main question "black spots in Perth":

The very common factor here would appear to be PSPs, AKA the PRINCIPAL shared paths that are along the main commuting routes (not shared paths in general).

These have never been properly engineered to accommodate the increasing heavy cycling traffic, let alone being shared paths (which actually means that cyclists have to give way to pedestrians who have priority) which makes this even worse.

Until the PSP network is made a bike only network, by removing pedestrians (new paths alongside or on adjacent streets), they will always be serious black line (not just a spot)! How on earth can cyclists safely maintain 40kph while pedestrians have 'right of way'? - and if they cant do this then PSPs are not doing their job. This needs fixing!

Again, until the true 'black spot' locations, where visibility is not adequate for the speeds and narrow sections particularly bends, are fixed they will continue be a source of cycle/cycle accidents. If main roads were designed like these 'cycling roads' the designers would be crucified.

It is noticeable that the majority of comments relate to the southern and central PSPs with few concerns to the north. In no small way this is because the southern ones are more heavily used but, most importantly, they are not 'tidal' like the northern PSP. Wherever two way flows occur, combined with constrictions and blind bends, accidents will continue and increase exponentially as cycling increases.

Finally, this is not entirely the fault of the infrastructure, while some cyclists continue to ignore barrier lines, keeping left and cutting corners at bridges/underpasses (as they most definitely would not do if driving a car) then some blame must sit with them.

In summary, much of the PSP network MUST be considered a black spot and is actually more dangerous that almost any other cycling infrastructure (but it does get you there quicker if you survive).

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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby Aushiker » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:28 pm

citywomble wrote:Hi Andrew,

In answer to your question - Yes I am listening! - I agree and this is is just one part of the wider issues along the coast.


Good to hear :)

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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby RobertFrith » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:34 pm

Yet another vote for Tydeman Rd. As Andrew points out access across it to the shared path is poor. Riding Tydeman Road itself is a nightmare, the traffic is busy and very mixed ranging from fully laden trucks through to the usual revheads and something about the road, maybe the wide radius curves, makes everyone eager.

Heading east there is a lot of lane changing as drivers set themselves up for the two bridges. Heading west you have to negotiate traffic exiting onto Tydeman road from the Freo Traffic Bridge which gets dumped into a lane on your left and has about 100m to move right or wind up at a port security gate.

If you pike and choose the path you have to negotiate several crossings, one of which is uncontrolled and has very poor visibility for for westbound cyclists. There is also a Telstra box in the middle of the path on a bend opposite the Railway Hotel and though it's not as bad as it used to be the path is used as overflow parking by hotel patrons toward the end of the week forcing cyclists and peds onto Tydeman Rd

The worst spot I know of for left hook potential is Stubbs Tce at the junction of Selby St. Most cycle traffic goes straight ahead to the PSP overpass on Nicholson Road, most motor traffic turns left due to Stubbs Tce being a dead end for them. I've had a couple of close calls there. I claim the lane well before the turn now but it's only a matter of time before someone comes a cropper there.
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby rolandp » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:05 am

Any section of the PSP where you have to cross a major and in particular you are looking backwards to see if there are any cars approaching you from behind, whilst trying to see what cars are approaching you from the front. Up north this will include Cedric St crossing and just south of Hutton St where there are two corners (Hector St and McDonald St). I've almost been a car ornament at Cedric St and have witnessed two crashes at the Hutton St area including one where the cyclists was taken away by the ambo.

Any train station exit which intersects with the PSP. Down south they've done a better job but up North we have Glendalough, Warwick, Greenwood, Ocean Reef and Currambine where train passengers pour out of the train onto the PSP. The West/East lines have similar problems.

Any local council who fails to spent their State or Federal grant funds. Too many to mention.

City of Perth, two many location to mention but where the majority of cycling commuters work. Failure to release their Bike Plan.

Minister of Transport (Marks I, II and III) for failing to release the revised Perth Bicycle Network Plan.

I'll stop now.
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby paulz » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:56 am

Perhaps the main/popular PSP routes need a wider path to accommodate 2 riders wide in each direction plus segregation of peds from riders. The traditional traffic engineering solution to congestion is to add extra lanes after all.

Another PSP where there is serious congestion and high potential for bike-ped crashes is the path north of Scarborough to Hillarys.
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby stealthbike » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:14 pm

Agree about having seperate pedestrian path alongside busy PSPs. I believe that the Kwinana PSP is the busiest in Perth, so it is asking for trouble to mix peds and cyclists. This issue and therefore the risk of more incidents will only get worse as more people take up cycling.
Whilst PSPs are built for both cyclists and pedestrian use, they would never be constructed if it were not for cylists The stretch alongside the freeway extension to Mandurah comes to mind. So why are pedestrians then given equal rights?
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby wagr1213 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:38 pm

Lack of "clearway" signage/paint at railway, road, PSP intersections.

The Welshpool Rd level crossing is I believe an unsafe area with a PSP stopping at the crossing - most motor vehicle traffic pulls right up to the gates when the crossing is closed to traffic for the passage of trains - Cyclist traffic cannot move from the PSP to the other side at a time when it is safest to cross this major intersection.
The intersection itself could be better designed for cyclists too!
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby citywomble » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:36 pm

Paulz said
Perhaps the main/popular PSP routes need a wider path to accommodate 2 riders wide in each direction plus segregation of peds from riders. The traditional traffic engineering solution to congestion is to add extra lanes after all.

Another PSP where there is serious congestion and high potential for bike-ped crashes is the path north of Scarborough to Hillarys.


Some serious misunderstanding here Paulz.

Firstly a PSP is a shared path and the rules for a shared path are single file only (except overtaking) so you must not ride two abreast. Especially where visibility is poor or paths join, if you are on the wrong side you are asking for trouble.

Secondly, the PSP on the coast (Scabs to Hillarys) IS NOT a PSP. It is a recreational shared path (RSP if you prefer acronyms). This is a shared path, primarily intended for pedestrians and on which bike riding is allowed. I use the term 'bike riding' because fast cyclists are not welcome by pedestrians, families with children and the local community. Any speed above 20kph is too fast for a RSP. Please do not use this for fast cycling - do what the responsible cyclists do and use the road alongside.

Serious congestion means SLOW DOWN. Treat pedestrians as mobile 'give way' signs and when in front blocking as Stop signs. Bells are for warning and not expecting a clear path and, if passing, give pedestrians "1 metre matters" too.

Stealthbike said
Agree about having seperate pedestrian path alongside busy PSPs. I believe that the Kwinana PSP is the busiest in Perth, so it is asking for trouble to mix peds and cyclists. This issue and therefore the risk of more incidents will only get worse as more people take up cycling.
Whilst PSPs are built for both cyclists and pedestrian use, they would never be constructed if it were not for cylists The stretch alongside the freeway extension to Mandurah comes to mind. So why are pedestrians then given equal rights?


Your comments are very sensible and I agree entirely with most of your comments. Where I disagree is that it was not just cyclists that the shared paths were constructed for. In many cases the freeway cut through streets and walking routes and the replacement paths were to allow for that displacement.

On Kwinana, adjacent to the Swan, look at the footbridges and realise that the PSP is where the waterside footpath was (or would have been provided). Where I do agree is that separation of pedestrian and cycling use IS urgent and imperative.

Until that time please remember that pedestrians are not given equal rights - their rights are primary and close to being absolute.

Cyclists must abide by the signs, markings, lines, keep left, ride single file and always give way.

Pedestrians are not subject to the vehicular (Bicycle) signs and markings, do not have to keep left, can walk 2,3 abreast and have 'right of way' at all times.

I must agree that, alongside the freeway extension to Mandurah, as there was not pedestrian path or traffic, it was the most bloody stupid thing to do to make it a shared path. It should have been a fast bike path and, if future development brought pedestrians they should then have a dedicated footpath. Still, this is government policy for new roads (even while they are dealing with the problems of shared use elsewhere) and rigid application of policy does not allow for common sense or 'joining the dots'.
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby filpee » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:28 am

Cedric Street intersection along the Northern PSP route is probably the worst intersection I have to deal with on my commute.

Karrinyup Road intersection at least has street lights but this has not prevented accidents Cyclist down at Karrinyup Rd PSP - 5-Aug-2011.

A few other places along the northern PSP
*Excalibur Way, Carine - A near blind corner where the PSP spills out onto (there is not path along this section so we have to ride on the road)
*Gribble Road, Gwelup - The PSP turns into a horrible mess of driveways and concrete slabs so cyclists ride on the road. This is similar to Excalibur Way in that the PSP spills out onto the Corner of Gribble and Balcatta roads.
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby paulz » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:03 pm

Citywomble, the point I am making about the PSP is that the level of use on that path perhaps warrants an upgrade. I believe that many accidents could be avoided by separating cyclists and peds. But if there were to be a separate bike path then it would make sense catering for 2 abreast in both directions.

Point noted about RSP between Scabs and Hillarys. I usually ride on the road as it is too dangerous on the path. But I also don't feel comfortable having a landcruiser try to squeeze past where there a traffic calming/pedestrian islands.
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby citywomble » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:30 pm

Filpee said:
Cedric Street intersection along the Northern PSP route is probably the worst intersection I have to deal with on my commute.

Karrinyup Road intersection at least has street lights but this has not prevented accidents Cyclist down at Karrinyup Rd PSP - 5-Aug-2011.

A few other places along the northern PSP
*Excalibur Way, Carine - A near blind corner where the PSP spills out onto (there is not path along this section so we have to ride on the road)
*Gribble Road, Gwelup - The PSP turns into a horrible mess of driveways and concrete slabs so cyclists ride on the road. This is similar to Excalibur Way in that the PSP spills out onto the Corner of Gribble and Balcatta roads.


Thanks for your comments which are well taken. Believe me Cedric Street is one we have looked at in detail, however, unless the PSP 'route' is diverted to utilise the new signals at the new train station car park, this IS the best and safest way to cross this street. Signals would cause accidents when cyclists used green and cars ran red (midblock) also the signal phasing would actualy make most crossing much longer.

I understand that the state government is actively looking at an improved solution for Karrinyup Road.

Excalibur Way is a missing link to the Reid 'PSP' from Marmion to the freeway and this is the subject of a PBN grant submission which, if approved, will provide a nice 2.6m wide red asphalt path from Marmion/Reid intersection to and along Excalibur Way to the end of the existing concrete path.

Gribble Road is the preferred route and measures are being investigated/considered to improve the link, between PSP and road, at each end, AND put bike markings (for cyclists on road) and signs to warn cars (at entry exits locations).

Paulz:
Citywomble, the point I am making about the PSP is that the level of use on that path perhaps warrants an upgrade. I believe that many accidents could be avoided by separating cyclists and peds. But if there were to be a separate bike path then it would make sense catering for 2 abreast in both directions.

Point noted about RSP between Scabs and Hillarys. I usually ride on the road as it is too dangerous on the path. But I also don't feel comfortable having a landcruiser try to squeeze past where there a traffic calming/pedestrian islands.


I agree with you. I am not sure what the rules are for bike paths (we just dont have many) but we do need them instead of the PSP being a shared path, which is no 2 abreast. The use of West Coast Drive, and links to the south to Scabs esplanade, is being given serious consideration as to how this can be improved for cyclists. Unfortunately state government has the regulatory powers on roads and we have to involve them in any solution which reduces options and increases time. I am optimistic this will be resolved sooner rather than later.
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby CycleSnail » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:06 pm

I have tried to summarise the locations received so far. Feel free to comment/enlarge

Thanks for all the suggestions.
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Re: Black Spots in Perth

Postby Ugg » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:23 pm

This is something I see on my daily commute on Dalkeith Rd, in both directions around the intersection with Stirling Hwy. I am sure there a many spots like it in Perth where two lanes merge sharply into one. Going north there is an unecessary buldge in the road. Going south the road drops to 1 lane in about 5 metres. I find drivers try to straighten the road, by pinching very close to the curb. Many times I have been overtaken and squeezed off the road. Several times I have wondered what would have happen had I been a less experienced cyclist. Although this is a driver issue, I think the road design encourages it and/or springs it upon the driver.
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