In response a social movement demanding safer cycling conditions for children was formed. Called Stop de Kindermoord (Stop the Child Murder), it took its name from the headline of an article written by journalist Vic Langenhoff whose own child had been killed in a road accident.
The Dutch faith in the reliability and sustainability of the motor vehicle was also shaken by the Middle East oil crisis of 1973, when oil-producing countries stopped exports to the US and Western Europe.
These twin pressures helped to persuade the Dutch government to invest in improved cycling infrastructure and Dutch urban planners started to diverge from the car-centric road-building policies being pursued throughout the urbanising West.
Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby eldavo » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:00 pm
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby CycleSnail » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:28 pm
I also liked this bit:
"When out on the road, Dutch cyclists feel powerful and protected, making the whole experience much more enjoyable. There are dangers on the roads, but very rarely do they involve heavy goods vehicles, poorly designed junctions or dangerous drivers. "
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote
Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:29 pm
We merely discussed the dwindling Dinosaur population and look what happened to them. It's obvious that nothing has been learned.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:40 pm
Unfortunately in the real world (Australia) we struggle to see existing cycling infrastructure maintained let alone find new infrastructure under construction. When the Qld government projects that within a couple of decades the healthcare system will eat up the vast majority of the State's budget, I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing such a utopian cycling environment as the Dutch enjoy. With the attitude from all of our State and Federal Pollies ATM (with our Transport Minister Scott Emerson leading the anti-charge) you can be assured that cycling networks and related infrastructure are well down on any government's list. It can shuffle its way up that list pending an election campaign as weve seen from the Feds last week.CycleSnail wrote:Thanks, eldavo.
I also liked this bit:
"When out on the road, Dutch cyclists feel powerful and protected, making the whole experience much more enjoyable. There are dangers on the roads, but very rarely do they involve heavy goods vehicles, poorly designed junctions or dangerous drivers. "
As for heavy vehicles not contributing to cycling injuries and deaths?
http://www.transport-network.co.uk/Bori ... gSNV2Qayc0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"According to statistics from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, HGVs are responsible for more than 40% of London cyclist deaths, despite only making 4% of road trips."
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby CycleSnail » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:29 pm
Thanks for the reference to cyclist deaths in London. You seem to indicate that the same figures would apply in Holland? I look forward to the relevant research.The 2nd Womble wrote: Unfortunately in the real world (Australia) we struggle to see existing cycling infrastructure maintained let alone find new infrastructure under construction.
As a result of concerted efforts by cycling groups and other organisations during the last state elections, here in WA we have a DoT (and a Minister of Transport) that is funding extentions to the Principal Shared Path network. But this is only part of the measures needed to get people on bicycles safely to their destinations. This is why in WA we advocate for measures to make the road safer as well, for instance lower speeds on selected urban roads.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby eldavo » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:33 pm
Although it's hard to tell because he posts so much can't tell if he's coming or going on this topic
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:40 pm
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby eldavo » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:18 pm
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:01 pm
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby Jackfrost » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:56 am
Comprehension is obviously not your strong point. I made my point quite clear that it would be too difficult for Police to detect and enforce this proposed law therefore being unable to sufficiently prove in court that the driver encroached the 1m space therefore not enforcing it in the first place. And I'm the idiot....The 2nd Womble wrote:Please Jackfrost, do make the effort and argue your point. Otherwise you're just another idiot with an opinion and a rolled down window.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby RonK » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:05 am
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby Summernight » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:34 am
I'll point it out (again) that the USA police are enforcing the distances by having police out there fining and warning motorists for failing to give an adequate distance between said motorist and the undercover cyclist-cop who has been trained in working out distances.Jackfrost wrote:Comprehension is obviously not your strong point. I made my point quite clear that it would be too difficult for Police to detect and enforce this proposed law therefore being unable to sufficiently prove in court that the driver encroached the 1m space therefore not enforcing it in the first place. And I'm the idiot....The 2nd Womble wrote:Please Jackfrost, do make the effort and argue your point. Otherwise you're just another idiot with an opinion and a rolled down window.
That is detection and enforcement. Not too difficult and is a real-life example...
If motorists know that there are undercover cops on bicycles riding around that could fine them for driving too close to the cyclist, then that may be an effective deterrent for most motorists to give all cyclists plenty of room.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:09 pm
Yes.Jackfrost wrote:Comprehension is obviously not your strong point. I made my point quite clear that it would be too difficult for Police to detect and enforce this proposed law therefore being unable to sufficiently prove in court that the driver encroached the 1m space therefore not enforcing it in the first place. And I'm the idiot....The 2nd Womble wrote:Please Jackfrost, do make the effort and argue your point. Otherwise you're just another idiot with an opinion and a rolled down window.
But don't mind me, I must profess I don't know alot about this passing law thing anyway.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby Jackfrost » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:51 pm
Not too difficult in theory... however we can't even get WA Police to enforce people rolling through STOP signs, talking on mobile phones and speeding cyclists on Share Paths. How then are you going to get them to create a specialist unit who are dedicated to working out whether a vehicle has come 800mm or 1200mm away from a cyclist. Never going to happen, which takes us back to a law that is difficult to detect, subjective at best and likely to be challenged in court. Once Police are being taken off the roads to attend court as witnesses they will soon cease enforcing the law.Summernight wrote:I'll point it out (again) that the USA police are enforcing the distances by having police out there fining and warning motorists for failing to give an adequate distance between said motorist and the undercover cyclist-cop who has been trained in working out distances.Jackfrost wrote:Comprehension is obviously not your strong point. I made my point quite clear that it would be too difficult for Police to detect and enforce this proposed law therefore being unable to sufficiently prove in court that the driver encroached the 1m space therefore not enforcing it in the first place. And I'm the idiot....The 2nd Womble wrote:Please Jackfrost, do make the effort and argue your point. Otherwise you're just another idiot with an opinion and a rolled down window.
That is detection and enforcement. Not too difficult and is a real-life example...
If motorists know that there are undercover cops on bicycles riding around that could fine them for driving too close to the cyclist, then that may be an effective deterrent for most motorists to give all cyclists plenty of room.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby eldavo » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:42 pm
I think your definition of what enforce means is questionable.
- Examples of stop signs and mobile phones laws enforced are plentiful.
- Bicycles don't have speedometers, shared paths generally don't have posted speed limits, perhaps you can tell us what law is not being enforced?
- Never going to happen... apologies for your time wasted, back to your TARDIS then I suppose.
- Police off the roads attending court is common every day practice already... are you suggesting no laws are being enforced currently and we are in utter anarchy! God save the Queen!
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby Jackfrost » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:54 pm
There are no actual posted speed limits on shared paths in Western Australia. However Regulation 229b of the Road Traffic Code states that a person shall not ride a bicycle recklessly on any road or path.eldavo wrote:Is this a copy paste exercise?
I think your definition of what enforce means is questionable.
- Examples of stop signs and mobile phones laws enforced are plentiful.
- Bicycles don't have speedometers, shared paths generally don't have posted speed limits, perhaps you can tell us what law is not being enforced?
- Never going to happen... apologies for your time wasted, back to your TARDIS then I suppose.
- Police off the roads attending court is common every day practice already... are you suggesting no laws are being enforced currently and we are in utter anarchy! God save the Queen!
This means that a cyclist travelling at a speed that a police officer deems reckless for the prevailing weather, light level, surface condition, presence of nearby attractions or the high number of path users, could receive a substantial penalty.
Yes bicycles don't have speedometres and guess what... vehicles don't have 1m measurers. We are saying the same thing.
I am saying that if magistrates start throwing out 1m encroachment convictions due to the Officer being unable to provide sufficient evidence then Police will soon stop enforcing it as they will feel they are wasting their time.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby eldavo » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:06 pm
We're not saying the same thing lol, but good try
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby Marty Moose » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:30 pm
MM
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby Jackfrost » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:25 am
So riding at 50km/h along the coastal shared paths at 10am on a Saturday morning is not reckless? It is moronic comments and actions like that that give us a bad name.eldavo wrote:Speed does not equal reckless.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby The 2nd Womble » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:14 am
Spoken from a wealth of experience?Jackfrost wrote:So riding at 50km/h along the coastal shared paths at 10am on a Saturday morning is not reckless? It is moronic comments and actions like that that give us a bad name.eldavo wrote:Speed does not equal reckless.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby Jackfrost » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:20 am
Oh look... the troll is back.The 2nd Womble wrote:Spoken from a wealth of experience?Jackfrost wrote:So riding at 50km/h along the coastal shared paths at 10am on a Saturday morning is not reckless? It is moronic comments and actions like that that give us a bad name.eldavo wrote:Speed does not equal reckless.
I don’t ride along coastal shared paths in Perth so no I am speaking from a standpoint of commonsense. Although I am starting to get the feeling it isn’t all that ‘common’.
Are you saying that riding 50km/h along a packed Shared Path is not reckless?
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby The 2nd Womble » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:40 am
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby Aushiker » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:41 am
50 km/h on coastal shared paths in Perth? Please do share. Exactly which coastal shared paths are you referring to where you have experienced such riding? The ones I ride, Fremantle to Joondalup route, I doubt there are two many spots where there are pedestrians in any numbers that such speeds could be reached and whilst I have seen some stupid riding I haven't come across people riding so recklessly as to justify your statement, just as I have seen some stupid behaviour by pedestrians, again not so extreme. Motorists on the other hand ....Jackfrost wrote:So riding at 50km/h along the coastal shared paths at 10am on a Saturday morning is not reckless? It is moronic comments and actions like that that give us a bad name.eldavo wrote:Speed does not equal reckless.
I am only aware of two pedestrians death in WA in the past few years as a result of a interaction with a cyclist, whereas the number killed due to interactions with motorists is significantly higher (See BITRE monthly data). With respect to the cyclist/pedestrians incidents one was on a shared path and one was on the road (pedestrian apparently stepped out in front the cyclist).
Maybe time for some balance in this discussion?
Andrew
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby Marty Moose » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:34 pm
ThankyouAushiker wrote:50 km/h on coastal shared paths in Perth? Please do share. Exactly which coastal shared paths are you referring to where you have experienced such riding? The ones I ride, Fremantle to Joondalup route, I doubt there are two many spots where there are pedestrians in any numbers that such speeds could be reached and whilst I have seen some stupid riding I haven't come across people riding so recklessly as to justify your statement, just as I have seen some stupid behaviour by pedestrians, again not so extreme. Motorists on the other hand ....Jackfrost wrote:So riding at 50km/h along the coastal shared paths at 10am on a Saturday morning is not reckless? It is moronic comments and actions like that that give us a bad name.eldavo wrote:Speed does not equal reckless.
I am only aware of two pedestrians death in WA in the past few years as a result of a interaction with a cyclist, whereas the number killed due to interactions with motorists is significantly higher (See BITRE monthly data). With respect to the cyclist/pedestrians incidents one was on a shared path and one was on the road (pedestrian apparently stepped out in front the cyclist).
Maybe time for some balance in this discussion?
Andrew
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!
Postby Jackfrost » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:52 pm
I never said I have witnessed the behaviour but was in fact offering an (extreme) example to counteract the claim that "speed does not equal reckless".Aushiker wrote:50 km/h on coastal shared paths in Perth? Please do share. Exactly which coastal shared paths are you referring to where you have experienced such riding? The ones I ride, Fremantle to Joondalup route, I doubt there are two many spots where there are pedestrians in any numbers that such speeds could be reached and whilst I have seen some stupid riding I haven't come across people riding so recklessly as to justify your statement, just as I have seen some stupid behaviour by pedestrians, again not so extreme. Motorists on the other hand ....Jackfrost wrote:So riding at 50km/h along the coastal shared paths at 10am on a Saturday morning is not reckless? It is moronic comments and actions like that that give us a bad name.eldavo wrote:Speed does not equal reckless.
I am only aware of two pedestrians death in WA in the past few years as a result of a interaction with a cyclist, whereas the number killed due to interactions with motorists is significantly higher (See BITRE monthly data). With respect to the cyclist/pedestrians incidents one was on a shared path and one was on the road (pedestrian apparently stepped out in front the cyclist).
Maybe time for some balance in this discussion?
Andrew
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