Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby eldavo » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:00 pm

In the context of what CycleSnail posted, it has things like this:

In response a social movement demanding safer cycling conditions for children was formed. Called Stop de Kindermoord (Stop the Child Murder), it took its name from the headline of an article written by journalist Vic Langenhoff whose own child had been killed in a road accident.

The Dutch faith in the reliability and sustainability of the motor vehicle was also shaken by the Middle East oil crisis of 1973, when oil-producing countries stopped exports to the US and Western Europe.

These twin pressures helped to persuade the Dutch government to invest in improved cycling infrastructure and Dutch urban planners started to diverge from the car-centric road-building policies being pursued throughout the urbanising West.
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by BNA » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:28 pm

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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby CycleSnail » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:28 pm

Thanks, eldavo.

I also liked this bit:
"When out on the road, Dutch cyclists feel powerful and protected, making the whole experience much more enjoyable. There are dangers on the roads, but very rarely do they involve heavy goods vehicles, poorly designed junctions or dangerous drivers. "
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:29 pm

Discussing the plight of the incredibly cute and fluffy Siberian Sabre Toothed Bald Headed Yak isn't going to stop it from becoming a stuffed museum piece. Protecting them from poachers by introducing tough new international sanctions including an embargo on the live trade of and the sale of Siberian Sabre Toothed Bald Headed Yak products, and stiff penalties for poachers is what is likely to save them.
We merely discussed the dwindling Dinosaur population and look what happened to them. It's obvious that nothing has been learned.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:40 pm

CycleSnail wrote:Thanks, eldavo.

I also liked this bit:
"When out on the road, Dutch cyclists feel powerful and protected, making the whole experience much more enjoyable. There are dangers on the roads, but very rarely do they involve heavy goods vehicles, poorly designed junctions or dangerous drivers. "

Unfortunately in the real world (Australia) we struggle to see existing cycling infrastructure maintained let alone find new infrastructure under construction. When the Qld government projects that within a couple of decades the healthcare system will eat up the vast majority of the State's budget, I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing such a utopian cycling environment as the Dutch enjoy. With the attitude from all of our State and Federal Pollies ATM (with our Transport Minister Scott Emerson leading the anti-charge) you can be assured that cycling networks and related infrastructure are well down on any government's list. It can shuffle its way up that list pending an election campaign as weve seen from the Feds last week.
As for heavy vehicles not contributing to cycling injuries and deaths?
http://www.transport-network.co.uk/Bori ... gSNV2Qayc0
"According to statistics from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, HGVs are responsible for more than 40% of London cyclist deaths, despite only making 4% of road trips."
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby CycleSnail » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:29 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:Unfortunately in the real world (Australia) we struggle to see existing cycling infrastructure maintained let alone find new infrastructure under construction.


Thanks for the reference to cyclist deaths in London. You seem to indicate that the same figures would apply in Holland? I look forward to the relevant research.

As a result of concerted efforts by cycling groups and other organisations during the last state elections, here in WA we have a DoT (and a Minister of Transport) that is funding extentions to the Principal Shared Path network. But this is only part of the measures needed to get people on bicycles safely to their destinations. This is why in WA we advocate for measures to make the road safer as well, for instance lower speeds on selected urban roads.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby eldavo » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:33 pm

I think T2W's question mark at end was a mistake, because the info he posted supported the info on state of Dutch cycling you posted.
Although it's hard to tell because he posts so much can't tell if he's coming or going on this topic ;)
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:40 pm

How did I infer anything relating to the contradictory Dutch figures in posting a link to stats which clearly show the opposite being the norm somewhere else, and probably more in line with Australian statistics?
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby eldavo » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:18 pm

I don't know, but maybe if posting a little bit didn't work, posting more will make it better =D
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:01 pm

This is seriously weird and AGF related, and I'd rather enjoy my Friday night
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby Jackfrost » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:56 am

The 2nd Womble wrote:Please Jackfrost, do make the effort and argue your point. Otherwise you're just another idiot with an opinion and a rolled down window.

Comprehension is obviously not your strong point. I made my point quite clear that it would be too difficult for Police to detect and enforce this proposed law therefore being unable to sufficiently prove in court that the driver encroached the 1m space therefore not enforcing it in the first place. And I'm the idiot....
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby RonK » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:05 am

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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby Summernight » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:34 am

Jackfrost wrote:
The 2nd Womble wrote:Please Jackfrost, do make the effort and argue your point. Otherwise you're just another idiot with an opinion and a rolled down window.

Comprehension is obviously not your strong point. I made my point quite clear that it would be too difficult for Police to detect and enforce this proposed law therefore being unable to sufficiently prove in court that the driver encroached the 1m space therefore not enforcing it in the first place. And I'm the idiot....


I'll point it out (again) that the USA police are enforcing the distances by having police out there fining and warning motorists for failing to give an adequate distance between said motorist and the undercover cyclist-cop who has been trained in working out distances.

That is detection and enforcement. Not too difficult and is a real-life example...

If motorists know that there are undercover cops on bicycles riding around that could fine them for driving too close to the cyclist, then that may be an effective deterrent for most motorists to give all cyclists plenty of room.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:09 pm

Jackfrost wrote:
The 2nd Womble wrote:Please Jackfrost, do make the effort and argue your point. Otherwise you're just another idiot with an opinion and a rolled down window.

Comprehension is obviously not your strong point. I made my point quite clear that it would be too difficult for Police to detect and enforce this proposed law therefore being unable to sufficiently prove in court that the driver encroached the 1m space therefore not enforcing it in the first place. And I'm the idiot....

Yes.
But don't mind me, I must profess I don't know alot about this passing law thing anyway.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby Jackfrost » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:51 pm

Summernight wrote:
Jackfrost wrote:
The 2nd Womble wrote:Please Jackfrost, do make the effort and argue your point. Otherwise you're just another idiot with an opinion and a rolled down window.

Comprehension is obviously not your strong point. I made my point quite clear that it would be too difficult for Police to detect and enforce this proposed law therefore being unable to sufficiently prove in court that the driver encroached the 1m space therefore not enforcing it in the first place. And I'm the idiot....


I'll point it out (again) that the USA police are enforcing the distances by having police out there fining and warning motorists for failing to give an adequate distance between said motorist and the undercover cyclist-cop who has been trained in working out distances.

That is detection and enforcement. Not too difficult and is a real-life example...

If motorists know that there are undercover cops on bicycles riding around that could fine them for driving too close to the cyclist, then that may be an effective deterrent for most motorists to give all cyclists plenty of room.

Not too difficult in theory... however we can't even get WA Police to enforce people rolling through STOP signs, talking on mobile phones and speeding cyclists on Share Paths. How then are you going to get them to create a specialist unit who are dedicated to working out whether a vehicle has come 800mm or 1200mm away from a cyclist. Never going to happen, which takes us back to a law that is difficult to detect, subjective at best and likely to be challenged in court. Once Police are being taken off the roads to attend court as witnesses they will soon cease enforcing the law.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby eldavo » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:42 pm

Is this a copy paste exercise?

I think your definition of what enforce means is questionable.
- Examples of stop signs and mobile phones laws enforced are plentiful.
- Bicycles don't have speedometers, shared paths generally don't have posted speed limits, perhaps you can tell us what law is not being enforced?
- Never going to happen... apologies for your time wasted, back to your TARDIS then I suppose.
- Police off the roads attending court is common every day practice already... are you suggesting no laws are being enforced currently and we are in utter anarchy! God save the Queen!
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby Jackfrost » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:54 pm

eldavo wrote:Is this a copy paste exercise?

I think your definition of what enforce means is questionable.
- Examples of stop signs and mobile phones laws enforced are plentiful.
- Bicycles don't have speedometers, shared paths generally don't have posted speed limits, perhaps you can tell us what law is not being enforced?
- Never going to happen... apologies for your time wasted, back to your TARDIS then I suppose.
- Police off the roads attending court is common every day practice already... are you suggesting no laws are being enforced currently and we are in utter anarchy! God save the Queen!

There are no actual posted speed limits on shared paths in Western Australia. However Regulation 229b of the Road Traffic Code states that a person shall not ride a bicycle recklessly on any road or path.
This means that a cyclist travelling at a speed that a police officer deems reckless for the prevailing weather, light level, surface condition, presence of nearby attractions or the high number of path users, could receive a substantial penalty.


Yes bicycles don't have speedometres and guess what... vehicles don't have 1m measurers. We are saying the same thing.

I am saying that if magistrates start throwing out 1m encroachment convictions due to the Officer being unable to provide sufficient evidence then Police will soon stop enforcing it as they will feel they are wasting their time.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby eldavo » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:06 pm

Speed does not equal reckless. So in that list of things you said that are not true, your idea that cyclists "speeding" on shared paths is not being enforced is also false... which makes all your examples of things happening that aren't enforced to be all incorrect.

We're not saying the same thing lol, but good try ;)
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby Marty Moose » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:30 pm

Its not about 1m at all its about hitting a cyclist which means your closer than 1m and at fault. Having a 1m rule will be difficult to enforce yes but if you are hit there is no argument the driver was under 1m :) I agree wil owner onus in this situation. I really don't think its going to stop the "lets see how close I can get driver" or the object throwing abusive driver. At the end of the day if you can't pass a road user in a safe manner it doesn't matter what you are driving or riding you are at fault, I know its just an opinion. I voted for it when the poll was round but doubt it will change anything.

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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby Jackfrost » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:25 am

eldavo wrote:Speed does not equal reckless.

:shock: So riding at 50km/h along the coastal shared paths at 10am on a Saturday morning is not reckless? It is moronic comments and actions like that that give us a bad name.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby The 2nd Womble » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:14 am

Jackfrost wrote:
eldavo wrote:Speed does not equal reckless.

:shock: So riding at 50km/h along the coastal shared paths at 10am on a Saturday morning is not reckless? It is moronic comments and actions like that that give us a bad name.

Spoken from a wealth of experience?
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby Jackfrost » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:20 am

The 2nd Womble wrote:
Jackfrost wrote:
eldavo wrote:Speed does not equal reckless.

:shock: So riding at 50km/h along the coastal shared paths at 10am on a Saturday morning is not reckless? It is moronic comments and actions like that that give us a bad name.

Spoken from a wealth of experience?

Oh look... the troll is back.

I don’t ride along coastal shared paths in Perth so no I am speaking from a standpoint of commonsense. Although I am starting to get the feeling it isn’t all that ‘common’.

Are you saying that riding 50km/h along a packed Shared Path is not reckless?
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby The 2nd Womble » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:40 am

Nope, but I realised that the point made wasn't so specific.
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby Aushiker » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:41 am

Jackfrost wrote:
eldavo wrote:Speed does not equal reckless.

:shock: So riding at 50km/h along the coastal shared paths at 10am on a Saturday morning is not reckless? It is moronic comments and actions like that that give us a bad name.


50 km/h on coastal shared paths in Perth? Please do share. Exactly which coastal shared paths are you referring to where you have experienced such riding? The ones I ride, Fremantle to Joondalup route, I doubt there are two many spots where there are pedestrians in any numbers that such speeds could be reached and whilst I have seen some stupid riding I haven't come across people riding so recklessly as to justify your statement, just as I have seen some stupid behaviour by pedestrians, again not so extreme. Motorists on the other hand ....

I am only aware of two pedestrians death in WA in the past few years as a result of a interaction with a cyclist, whereas the number killed due to interactions with motorists is significantly higher (See BITRE monthly data). With respect to the cyclist/pedestrians incidents one was on a shared path and one was on the road (pedestrian apparently stepped out in front the cyclist).

Maybe time for some balance in this discussion?

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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby Marty Moose » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:34 pm

Aushiker wrote:
Jackfrost wrote:
eldavo wrote:Speed does not equal reckless.

:shock: So riding at 50km/h along the coastal shared paths at 10am on a Saturday morning is not reckless? It is moronic comments and actions like that that give us a bad name.


50 km/h on coastal shared paths in Perth? Please do share. Exactly which coastal shared paths are you referring to where you have experienced such riding? The ones I ride, Fremantle to Joondalup route, I doubt there are two many spots where there are pedestrians in any numbers that such speeds could be reached and whilst I have seen some stupid riding I haven't come across people riding so recklessly as to justify your statement, just as I have seen some stupid behaviour by pedestrians, again not so extreme. Motorists on the other hand ....

I am only aware of two pedestrians death in WA in the past few years as a result of a interaction with a cyclist, whereas the number killed due to interactions with motorists is significantly higher (See BITRE monthly data). With respect to the cyclist/pedestrians incidents one was on a shared path and one was on the road (pedestrian apparently stepped out in front the cyclist).

Maybe time for some balance in this discussion?

Andrew


Thankyou :)
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Re: Poll on one meter passing distance - go and vote!

Postby Jackfrost » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:52 pm

Aushiker wrote:
Jackfrost wrote:
eldavo wrote:Speed does not equal reckless.

:shock: So riding at 50km/h along the coastal shared paths at 10am on a Saturday morning is not reckless? It is moronic comments and actions like that that give us a bad name.


50 km/h on coastal shared paths in Perth? Please do share. Exactly which coastal shared paths are you referring to where you have experienced such riding? The ones I ride, Fremantle to Joondalup route, I doubt there are two many spots where there are pedestrians in any numbers that such speeds could be reached and whilst I have seen some stupid riding I haven't come across people riding so recklessly as to justify your statement, just as I have seen some stupid behaviour by pedestrians, again not so extreme. Motorists on the other hand ....

I am only aware of two pedestrians death in WA in the past few years as a result of a interaction with a cyclist, whereas the number killed due to interactions with motorists is significantly higher (See BITRE monthly data). With respect to the cyclist/pedestrians incidents one was on a shared path and one was on the road (pedestrian apparently stepped out in front the cyclist).

Maybe time for some balance in this discussion?

Andrew

I never said I have witnessed the behaviour but was in fact offering an (extreme) example to counteract the claim that "speed does not equal reckless".
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