city west path & othertaking

Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby eldavo » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:16 pm

May have replied in another thread or not hit submit, yeah saw the tripod camera aiming down street to approaching pedestrians, looked too close for a wide shot of the east/west traffic.

This traffic "control" of various types and conditions in the area this year has been terrible, hard to blame people about oncoming lane position on blind bends/crests/downhills at speed when set up to fail like this.

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by BNA » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:36 pm

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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wintal » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:36 pm

It looks like they've laid new path between Harbourtown and Perth Arena and unblocked it (noticed on my way home). Not sure where it goes yet, guess I'll try it next time on my way in ;)
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby rolandp » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:52 pm

wintal wrote:It looks like they've laid new path between Harbourtown and Perth Arena and unblocked it (noticed on my way home). Not sure where it goes yet, guess I'll try it next time on my way in ;)

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Couple of warnings:
At the original Market St crossing, we are back to poor design where we have cyclists trying to cross Market St, with no room to undertake
At the original Market St crossing, there are two witches hats over a 'pit', suggestion that the lip of the 'pit' is higher/lower than the PSP - it is right where you cross, so adding to the excitement of avoiding the witches hats, looking out for cyclists traffic trying to cross Market St
At the Arena end, the original path which I've been using for the last 3-4 months is now blocked but you can access it just East of the temporary barriers
When the temporary barriers come down, then this location will also be a poor design with cyclist traffic east-west, trying to merge with bikes crossing over Market St
I thought the idea of having the raised section at this location (shown in the photo), gave cyclists right of way. There is a give-way sign installed on the PSP on the South side, but not on the North side, and solid lines on the road, but no stop sign - so your call who gives way when you are on the north side - and why do we have to give way from the south side when this is ONLY an access to a car-park
The original PSP has several large cracks, so travel with care
There are still very large vehicles exiting over the PSP (as shown eldavo's photos)

Even more reasons to travel with care through this area, and a shame that these crossings were not implemented better.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wintal » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:16 am

Thanks for the pics Roland - I always prefer to know where I'm going before heading down strange new paths ;)

The quality of the path has degraded a lot with all the construction going on around. I presume that's why they re-laid the path, though I noticed the next day they'd parked a pile of vehicles on it again, so...

Hopefully they plan on re-doing the rest of the path (not sure how much more rail work they still have to do, but I passed a large number of orange suited men on my way in this morning).
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wellington_street » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:33 am

What's everyone's thoughts on the treatment at City West? Old news now but I've just started riding through there again after an absence of a few months and am observing the behaviour. Seems to work OK, although there are still the minority of morons who take the wrong road, don't give way to peds etc.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby jlh » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:57 am

The islands and layout is still rubbish but no point throwing good money after bad...
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby eldavo » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:14 pm

I rolled through there standing catching a cool breeze through the knicks, covering the brakes ready for anything.
Given the vegetation and crossing from the downhill approach, I think to halt the downhill speed for the careless or unwilling to slow a full speed bump across the whole path including pedestrian section to avoid any swerving for gaps etc. would work. It is probably a no-no to put a permanent hazard to slow people down in good conditions for the problems if they hit it at speed, or in bad conditions can be more of a problem. Putting the onus on the user instead of a speed hazard that a user may sue the council/government over seems to be a possible reason here also.

The drainage and flooding problem from day dot persists in the same places, and the sprinklers from the apartment block regularly fill/flood those sections.

It seems to achieve more visible awareness of the hazard of the area, so people can do the right thing, but not stopping or slowing people choosing not to do the right thing.

As said in the beginning it all seems to be a rock and a hard place (literally with that rock retaining wall you will meet if get loose around the flooded patches ;)
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wintal » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:28 pm

The traffic calming at the eastern end of the train is really poorly laid out, it's quite a sharp turn for bikes heading west - this results in most bikes using the wrong side of the path at this section. When there were workmen there a few weeks ago and I stopped to let pedestrians go through - they told me I was the first one they'd seen stop, which doesn't bode well.

I actually find the signage a bit weird - it's a 'shared zone', but then has a give way sign for the bikes.... so I'm not sure how it's more of a 'shared zone' than the normal path.

There's no getting around the fact that you still have a curvy path and a pile of rocks on one side hemming you in if anything goes wrong.

All that said, I have relatively few problems coming through here... I've had one or two instances of people using the wrong side of the path when they really shouldn't have due to oncoming traffic. Haven't had any cases of people zooming past me when I stop for pedestrians, so maybe the reduced space has fixed that.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wellington_street » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:18 pm

wintal wrote:I actually find the signage a bit weird - it's a 'shared zone', but then has a give way sign for the bikes.... so I'm not sure how it's more of a 'shared zone' than the normal path.


I thought exactly the same thing. I think the designers have just thrown a bunch of signs and pavement markings at it in the hope it will affect behaviour. As you say, a shared path is already a "shared zone" and in a "shared zone" you can't really have a "give way" sign/point as then it's not really a shared zone.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby eldavo » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:36 pm

My impression is they made them into traffic calming intersections and want all parties to give way.
- Pedestrians to not walk out blindly as per pedestrian crossing right of way option and not check for the hazard of cyclists at speed.
- Cyclists to be slowed down and giving way
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wexford » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:13 pm

I reckon it's a slight improvement, at least in that cyclists are slowing down instead of barreling through what used to be the crosswalks. The problem is that many are taking the wrong side of the path like wintal has observed (I see it frequently). Someone even tried to pass me that way once, which didn't end so great for them when I decided to spring out of the chicane quickly and teach them a lesson. Idiot.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wellington_street » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:08 am

Rode through City West after work yesterday. I don't know if I caught the rush or whether it was just extra loony day yesterday because the behaviour was pretty bad through there. All sorts of squeezing past peds/oncoming cyclists at speed, overtaking cyclists on the wrong side through the chicances (including when I slowed to walking pace to give way to a ped crossing to the station). So much impatience. I doubt any of the nutters were members on here but I wonder if they ever stop to ponder why motorists show impatience to cyclists on the road?
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby 88mph » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:23 am

wellington_street wrote:Rode through City West after work yesterday. I don't know if I caught the rush or whether it was just extra loony day yesterday because the behaviour was pretty bad through there. All sorts of squeezing past peds/oncoming cyclists at speed, overtaking cyclists on the wrong side through the chicances (including when I slowed to walking pace to give way to a ped crossing to the station). So much impatience. I doubt any of the nutters were members on here but I wonder if they ever stop to ponder why motorists show impatience to cyclists on the road?


Yep, it was pretty hectic through there. Someone is going to get hurt.

They should look at widening that stretch between City West and Harbor Town, as most of the congestion I've seen is closer to the station.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wellington_street » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:28 am

There's plenty of room over the Sutherland Street bridge for a ~3.5m wide bike path and ~2.5m wide pedestrian path with a kerb between the two; a little bit more work required on the approaches but still do-able. The separated ped path on the western side of the station up to Arthur Street works well.

No chance of ever widening alongside Market Street through :(
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby CycleSnail » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:13 pm

88mph wrote:
wellington_street wrote:Rode through City West after work yesterday. I don't know if I caught the rush or whether it was just extra loony day yesterday because the behaviour was pretty bad through there. All sorts of squeezing past peds/oncoming cyclists at speed, overtaking cyclists on the wrong side through the chicances (including when I slowed to walking pace to give way to a ped crossing to the station). So much impatience. I doubt any of the nutters were members on here but I wonder if they ever stop to ponder why motorists show impatience to cyclists on the road?


Yep, it was pretty hectic through there. Someone is going to get hurt.

They should look at widening that stretch between City West and Harbor Town, as most of the congestion I've seen is closer to the station.


I try to avoid that stretch during evening rush hour - I would be travelling east, and having to cope with all the city workers rushing home to their families (or the pub) is daunting. Overtaking peds and cyclists, squeezing between groups and so on - unpleasant.

I think there is little appetite for widening the PSP at this stretch, as there is talk about having a PSP on the north side from Thomas to Milligan to take some of the traffic from the current path. Hopefully it will be grade separated over Sutherland.... or at least get a cycling priority light if it is not.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby ikm » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:14 pm

I've been riding into rush hour traffic a couple of times a week lately. It is scary. I tend to cruise slowly on the very edge of the path because of the constant flow of overtaking.

I think the changes have improved things but are still not ideal, for anyone.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wellington_street » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:45 pm

It's a behaviour and mindset issue, more than the infrastructure imo.

Fast forward to the Thomas St/Railway Pde lights, you end up with an orderly queue of up to a dozen cyclists waiting for the green signal. Most of the time these cyclists then stay in line and don't try stupid overtakes until everyone is well onto the path again. It takes an extra 30 seconds to do this.

Rewind to City West and instead of riding a bit slower and calmer at a cost of an extra 30 seconds (and you don't even need to stop), idiots just get impatient and start riding everywhere and anywhere, at speed.

The psychologist in me is struggling to reconcile such striking differences in behaviour.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wellington_street » Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:16 am

Last night was even crazier.

Waiting to turn right from Kwinana PSP onto the Market St PSP, had to wait as there were a heap of cars and about 20-30 cyclists heading west. So of course the morons behind me go around, get halfway across the road then stop in the middle as cars slam on their brakes. One nice driver actually stopped to try and let me/us cross Market St but given there was a stream of a dozen cyclists heading west there's nowhere to go.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby eldavo » Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:25 am

Yeah that is a live crossing, you've got:
- traffic on right from the offramp that is only visible withing 30m.
- cars from the parking complex adjacent on the left, who don't look at the PSP crossing as they exit and are looking left to the cars down the road on the left
- cars from down the road on the left
- PSP traffic you immediately cross with either direction if you make the crossing

Jumping around other riders at the front who are watching for all of that to make a crossing, and just steam rolling past them, no surprise you've missed one of the 5 traffic types/directions you need to be looking for.
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