Mount St Overpass

Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby CycleSnail » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:39 pm

Sinner wrote:The "No Cycling" signs have now gone from the bridge and replaced with "Pedestrian Priority Zone". Hence you can legally cycle over the bridge.


... and that seems to be happening in a few spots in the City of Perth, eg the malls. Good outcome, easy to do, no costs.
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by BNA » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:13 am

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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby wellington_street » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:13 am

^ I concur.

However, the nitpicker in me can't help but nitpick the selection of signs - "pedestrian priority zone" - presumably there's 'END Pedestrian Priority Zone" signs at each end where pedestrians no longer have priority? Even if there isn't, do pedestrians only have priority in these zones?
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby Sinner » Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:44 pm

Pedestrians have priority on footpaths. Oh, sorry cycling is banned on them!
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby rolandp » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:27 pm

wellington_street wrote:^ I concur.

However, the nitpicker in me can't help but nitpick the selection of signs - "pedestrian priority zone" - presumably there's 'END Pedestrian Priority Zone" signs at each end where pedestrians no longer have priority? Even if there isn't, do pedestrians only have priority in these zones?

The nitpicker in me asks - where are the shared path signs?
Image
Without this, we legally are not allowed to ride here. What is currently installed are (which already have been vandalised):
Image

Budgeted costs for these signs (which aren't legal) - $14,000 - City of Perth's Bike Plan implementation documentation

And in relation to Halo on the Mount, they recently changed their FaceBook picture to:
Image

When the reality is:
Image
with zero gap between the PSP and the new building.

I'm still waiting for confirmation from City of Perth in relation to line of sight, and if they approved the building being located next to the PSP significantly reducing our line of sight - it was only asked back in August 2013 and followed up three times now. Anyone have formal line of sight requirements for PSP's?
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby CycleSnail » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:37 pm

rolandp wrote: Anyone have formal line of sight requirements for PSP's?


I think there is something in the Austroads index, but I dont have the details at hand.
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby Sinner » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:08 pm

I produced this many years ago:

SSDs for cyclists are given in Table 3.1
Design Speed Preferred Minimum Stopping Sight Distance
30 kph 30 m
10 kph 10 m
Table 3.1 – SSD for Off-Carriageway Cycle Routes

From UK DMRB TA 90/05, The Geometric Design of Pedestrian, Cycle and Equestrian Routes

Gives an idea......
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby rolandp » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:54 pm

Halo on the Mount workers were out this morning on the PSP - installing new shade cloth on their building, taking up 1 whole lane of the PSP to undertake in peak hour traffic.

The line of sight I can vouch for at this location is VERY small, and appreciated the person in front using slow down hand signals, as well as others in the opposite direction.

Shame workers didn't install early warning signs. Still waiting a response from MRWA indicating if they had given permission for this work to occur on the PSP, and if not, how will this be addressed.
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby wellington_street » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:15 am

Please keep us updated roland, that's really poor.
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby eldavo » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:31 am

My first thought was perhaps after the long weekend shenanigans someone has pulled it down and/or strong winds etc. Someone gets to work by 7am and told to fix it (peak hour commuting on the path). They put a red cone down in front of tall ladder laid on path, but not adequately supplied with path closure.

It will always be a terrible spot with the steep step down in the descent that can instantly add 10kph speed. Hence the need for best practice and preparation with MRWA knowing this, not sub-standard knee jerk reactions.

If something fatal happens and a Coroner were to review it, the bleeding obvious negligence should be criminal.
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby rolandp » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:15 pm

eldavo wrote:My first thought was perhaps after the long weekend shenanigans someone has pulled it down and/or strong winds etc. Someone gets to work by 7am and told to fix it (peak hour commuting on the path).
Something like this:
Image
Taken this evening on the way home, reported to MainRoads as I didn't get a response to my Online Report an Issue raised yesterday, and wanted to show what the shade cloth looked like now.

So, if it was long weekend shenanigans, and it has happened again today, then they should be looking at increasing their security, or using alternatives to shade cloth.

I also included an image of the same location from 12 months ago, where the line of sight is all the way up to Mount St Bridge:
Image
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby Rex » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:24 am

With the amount of cycling traffic we have now (line of 30+ commuters thismorning from Canning Hwy to Narrows, before 7am) that is a major disaster waiting to happen.
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby rolandp » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:49 am

I stopped off on Friday and spoke to the Site Manager about the site. He agreed to refix the flapping shade cloth which is now completed.

We also spoke about the line-of-sight, and he indicated that he was building according to the approved plans. I asked if I could get see a copy (no), or get a copy (yes - but would have to apply/pay a fee/etc from some government department - not an option at this time for me, but will follow up if required).

So, verbally the building is being built to approved plans.

Did a search last night to see if there was an online access to the approved plans, and came back with the City of Perth's Design Advisory Committee - Jan 2011 approval. Scroll to page 7/8 and it specifies:
Setbacks
Side east - Basement-Ground - Proposed Nil (Car Park) - Required/Permitted - 3m
Side east - Levels 1-5 - Proposed 1.5m - Required/Permitted - 3m

There is also reference to previous approval also back on 13 December 2005 which I couldn't get to due to 502 Bad Gateway error message, but will be interested to see what was approved at that time.

So, the Committee (and assumable the Council as currently historical council meeting minutes are off-line with 502 Bad Gateway error message) approved the reduction of the east side setbacks from 3m to be 0 for the ground floor and 1.5m for the remaining floors.

There is no mention of line-of-sight on the PSP being reduced as a result of this decision.

The definition of 'ground floor' can also be questioned, as the 'ground floor' may be 'ground floor' on Mount St, but the 'ground floor' at the south end of the property and next to the PSP is several meters above the ground, which can be seen in the photos where the 'ground floor' sticks up and over the PSP fencing.

There is a set back from that ground floor (as shown in the previously posted photo), but is it 1.5m?

I'm going to write to the next City of Perth Council meeting as my previous attempts to get information from Perth Council staff in relation to line-of-sight have not provided the information required (ie has the line-of-sight reduced below recognised standards and if so, how will it be restored).
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby rolandp » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:46 am

Questions forwarded to CoP for tomorrows (18-Feb) meeting. Meeting is at 6pm, am I allowed to wear cycling gear to these meetings?
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby CycleSnail » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:05 am

rolandp wrote:Questions forwarded to CoP for tomorrows (18-Feb) meeting. Meeting is at 6pm, am I allowed to wear cycling gear to these meetings?


you can wear your budgie smugglers, like on "that" bikeride last year .... :D
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby rolandp » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:19 am

My questions were read out last night at the council meeting, but due to the technical nature, will require additional time to investigate and provide a response. The Lord Mayor did indicate that officers would visit the site today.

The questions were:
On 27th January 2011, the Design Advisory Committee recommended changes to setbacks of 31 – 35 (Lot 801) Mount Street, West Perth be submitted for approval to the Council, with setbacks of 0 meters, even though the required/permitted setback is 3 meters, for the Side (East) Basement-Ground. This recommendation was approved by the Council on 22nd February 2011. Now that construction has commenced at this location, sight lines have significantly been reduced as shown in the below pictures taken in January 2013 compared to January 2014.
Included two images taken from Jan-2013 and Jan-2014 showing the sight lines then and now
Q1 Could the Council indicate if sight lines have been reduced on the principle shared path at this location as a result of not applying the required/permitted setback of 3 meters?
Q2 How will the Council re-implement the sight lines to allow for safe travel again on the principle shared path at this location?

In February 2013, the principle shared path at this location was partially closed due to the collapse of a large section of the principle shared path:
Included image showing the collapse of the section of the PSP
The principle shared path at this location still has several large cracks today:
Included image showing the cracks at this location
Q3 Would the damage to the principle shared path at this location have occurred if the Council had not approved the reduction in setbacks from a required/permitted setback of 3 meters and approved this to be 0 meters?
Q4 Who is responsible for the permanent fixing of the principle shared path at this location to remove these cracks, and when will this occur?

Advertising material for this development shows a green wall being built alongside the principle shared path:
Image
Q5 Has the Council approved this green wall?
Q6 Given that there is 0 meters setback from the principle shared path which the Council approved on 22nd February 2011 even though the required/permitted setback is 3 meters, and development has now occurred to that 0 meters setback, how will this green wall be built unless the principle shared path is relocated to accommodate the green wall?
Q7 Could the Council confirm exactly where this green wall is being built?
Q8 Could the Council indicate if this green wall will also impact on sight lines at this location?
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby eldavo » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:37 am

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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby rolandp » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:28 am

One week on, no response from City of Perth relating to questions asked at Council. I forwarded the questions late last Monday.

Interesting article on the architect for Halo on the Mount - titled Pushing Boundaries. They certainly did in this case, right up against the PSP.

As a side note, I was overtaken by a electric scooter late last week. There were a couple in front of me, which I sat back as I didn't think I would be able to pass them safely. Instead, the electric scooter overtakes me, and the couple, at this location.
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby rolandp » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:48 am

Reponses available from the Cit of Perth Agenda:
Question 1: On 27th January 2011, the Design Advisory Committee recommended changes to setbacks of 31 – 35 (Lot 801) Mount Street, West Perth be submitted for approval to the Council, with setbacks of 0 meters, even though the required/permitted setback is 3 meters, for the Side (East) Basement-Ground. This recommendation was approved by the Council on 22nd February 2011. Now that construction has commenced at this location, sight lines have significantly been reduced.
Could the Council indicate if sight lines have been reduced on the principle shared path at this location as a result of not applying the required/permitted setback of 3 meters?

Response The photograph supplied indicates that distant objects may be partially obscured from view at the location, however the predominant visual barrier at the location is temporary during construction, having been erected to protect the public from materials spilling from the construction site and will be required to remain in place until construction of the building’s exterior is completed. Lower bicycle speeds and heightened rider vigilance are required in this location as the path is steep and shared with pedestrians.

Question 2: How will the Council re-implement the sight lines to allow for safe travel again on the principle shared path at this location?

Response The construction fencing will be removed at the completion of the development, increasing sight lines.

Question 3: In February 2013, the principle shared path at this location was partially closed due to the collapse of a large section of the principle shared path, The principle shared path at this location still has several large cracks today:
Would the damage to the principle shared path at this location have occurred if the Council had not approved the reduction in setbacks from a required/permitted setback of 3 meters and approved this to be 0 meters?

Response As the described event is hypothetical, there can be no definitive (or correct) answer to the question.

Question 4: Who is responsible for the permanent fixing of the principle shared path at this location to remove these cracks, and when will this occur?

Response At the Council meeting held on 18 February 2014 the Chief Executive Officer advised that in relation to the cracking and safety issues an inspection would be carried out the next morning following the meeting date.
The PSP is located within the Freeway reserve and falls under the control and responsibility of Main Roads WA. A Works Bond has been paid to the City by the Builder to cover the repair of any damage to roads within the City’s care and control (Mount Street). If there was evidence provided that the cracks in the PSP were the result of the construction activity on the adjoining site then it might be possible to negotiate for the Builder to undertake the repairs or to use the bond money to cover the works. Otherwise it is MRWA’s responsibility to repair the path if required.

Question 5: Advertising material for this development shows a green wall being built alongside the principle shared path, Has the Council approved this green wall?

Response It is noted that the lower car parking levels have been approved with a nil side setback while the upper residential levels are setback 1.5m from the side (cycle path) boundary.
An extensive green landscaping treatment was approved for the eastern and southern boundary walls. The ‘green wall’ has been designed to step down toward the cycleway in narrow terraces and will be wholly contained within the boundaries of the development site. Therefore there will be no need to relocate the cycle path in order to construct the wall or to install and maintain the plants.

Question 6: Given that there is 0 meters setback from the principle shared path which the Council approved on 22nd February 2011 even though the required/permitted setback is 3 meters, and development has now occurred to that 0 meters setback, how will this green wall be built unless the principle shared path is relocated to accommodate the green wall?

Response The entire development will occur within privately owned property (refer to previous response for further information regarding the ‘green wall’ construction).

Question 7: Could the Council confirm exactly where this green wall is being built?

Response (Refer to response for questions 5 and 6 for further information regarding the ‘green wall’ construction).

Question 8: Could the Council indicate if this green wall will also impact on sight lines at this location?

Response (Refer to responses for questions 1 and 6) The owners of the development will be required to maintain the landscaping so that it does not obstruct the PSP.
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby WarbyD » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:39 pm

i haven't ridden this way for a bit, and it's not entirely clear from the photos above... But I'm SURE there are walls built hard up against the PSP aren't there? I think council are delusional (or being lied to) if they believe the setback is being maintained and that line of sight obstructions are only temporary....
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby eldavo » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:05 pm

They are saying it is temporary for construction and alluding to it not applying to cycling path level and upwards, but it does not clarify and confirm "1.5m of setback from the cycle path".

Thanks to Roland (as part of BTA?) for chasing it up.
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby rolandp » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:41 pm

WarbyD wrote:i haven't ridden this way for a bit, and it's not entirely clear from the photos above... But I'm SURE there are walls built hard up against the PSP aren't there? I think council are delusional (or being lied to) if they believe the setback is being maintained and that line of sight obstructions are only temporary....

Photo previously posted on 29-Jan-2014:
Image
This one taken late last week:
Image

Should we have a poll if individuals think that this a solid piece of concrete build 0m away from the PSP? And if this will reduce the line of sight at this location as a result?
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby rolandp » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:52 am

Slightly off topic, but at the corner Hay St/Mitchell Fay, the shared path sign has been knocked over and is lying on the shared path. If you are coming from the south, and go quickly around that horrible turn near Parliament House, you may not see the pole on the ground.

Hopefully reported to Main Roads this evening, but their website is playing up.

Pole looked like it was still attached to the ground, so I didn't try to move it (and if I did try may have been too heavy).
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby Marmoset » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:11 pm

I'm liking the buidling design but agree that there will no longer be a clear line of site up to the footbridge when it's finished. It's a fait accomplit now, there's no options to do anything about restoring the sight lines, so we'll just have to be patient and careful (although someone will undoubtedly think it's everyone else's job to get outta the way)

I no longer overtake anyone going up there, the idea of a 40Km/h combined speed impact doesn't appeal to me enough to risk getting to work a minute earlier.
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby WarbyD » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:17 pm

i'm the same when I ride that section Marmoset.. as soon as I get on that path, I generally drop down and just spin my way slowly up there behind whoever happens to be in front.
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Re: Mount St Overpass

Postby eldavo » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:31 pm

I did that behind Roland one time, wasn't sure it was him so didn't call out til his turnoff 20km later ;)
Only problem was they had cut shrubs and left the prunings on the path in front of parliament, he jumped on the brakes to take evidence, testing I put money where mouth is and used my safety distance to avoid him :D
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