Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby Aushiker » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:21 pm

Came across an incident on the Kwinana PSP at approximately 8:00 AM this morning. Looked like I arrived not long after it had happened. I saw two cyclists down and being attended to; a young boy (early teens if that) and young woman (late teens/early 20s I guess). No further details.



It did make me realsie that I really need to upgradge my first aid skills as neither cyclists where in recovery position and I did wonder afterwards if anyone really had a clue as to what to do. With proper first aid training I would have been okay to stop and help; as it stands I didn't feel confident given the situation.

Hope all concerned are okay.

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by BNA » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:34 pm

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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby Joeblake » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:34 pm

Wow. Lucky it wasn't a couple of days ago in the afternoon or something, that hot tar would have been causing blisters.

Hope they're all okay.

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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby winstonw » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:44 pm

yeah Aus, you will never regret the time invested in first aid skill acquisition....and I am sure you would appreciate your mates invested likewise if you were to go down. Last year I had to use them 3 times for cycling incidents, the first a guy who it was later revealed had a fractured neck. None of the other 30 odd cyclists in the pack had worked out that him going OTB at 40+kph and not having any damage to his body apart from a severe abrasion of his jaw, was seriously indicative of a cervical spine injury.
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby Marty Moose » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:24 pm

winstonw wrote:yeah Aus, you will never regret the time invested in first aid skill acquisition....and I am sure you would appreciate your mates invested likewise if you were to go down. Last year I had to use them 3 times for cycling incidents, the first a guy who it was later revealed had a fractured neck. None of the other 30 odd cyclists in the pack had worked out that him going OTB at 40+kph and not having any damage to his body apart from a severe abrasion of his jaw, was seriously indicative of a cervical spine injury.


Knowing that did you use a collar ?? If he was breathing ok, not sure I'd move him without one especially if he was concious. Don't get me wrong I think the recovery position is great (what I've been taught) but I've also not wanted to move people before either.

MM
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby winstonw » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:59 pm

Marty Moose wrote:Knowing that did you use a collar ?? If he was breathing ok, not sure I'd move him without one especially if he was concious. Don't get me wrong I think the recovery position is great (what I've been taught) but I've also not wanted to move people before either.

MM


A lot of people mistakenly think under no circumstances should a suspect neck # be moved, but the algorithm is thus:
1. remove all parties from danger or remove the danger. i.e. this guy was lying on a busy 4 lane highway. we had enough people around to control traffic, but if it happened on the blind side of the crest of a hill on a more remote high speed road, you'd move him, while stablizing the neck as best as possible.
2. airways and breathing are next priority. if the guy cannot breathe he is going to die anyway, despite a suspected fractured neck. you therefore have to do whatever is required to get the airways open and air into the lungs. moving the head slowly and gently into position would be appropriate.

I didn't use a collar because - didn't have one (I was cycling in the same pack) and I was able to stay with him and cradle his head. He was conscious and had bad concussion and was not aware of what had happened, and wanted to keep getting up...so it was better I stayed with him and kept him calm, engaged, and answered the same questions he repeated every 2-3 minutes. Incidentally, I expected the ambo to be no more than 8 minutes, but it took 24 minutes, which I was seriously annoyed about and wrote to my local member about. Nevertheless, I didn't make the 000 call so don't know what info the services were given.

I didn't have a collar, though it is easy to make one out of newspaper....but there would have been risk trying to get it on, and it may have been so uncomfortable the victim would move too much. A neck brace wouldn't have stopped the head from slumping or rotating left/right while supine.
The one case for applying a mock collar immediately would have been if he had stopped breathing, we could have started EAR +/- CPR without someone having to support his head as carefully.
Last edited by winstonw on Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby drb » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:02 pm

Yeh it wasn't pretty was eddy hollands partner sarah i was with the bunch there was two riders coming the other way doing around 30kph two abreast and our bunch doing just over 30kph when they hit head on locking bars and the girl on the ground then hit the rider in front breaking his bike in half and went over the bars and landing very hard on her shoulder looked broken and the girl coming the other way how crashed I think broke her wrist hard to tell the ambulance took them away.
Bunches and riders need to stay single file on the paths and limit there speeds it's safer to ride on road with cars then the cycle paths
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby Thoglette » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:27 pm

Aushiker wrote: With proper first aid training I would have been okay to stop and help; as it stands I didn't feel confident given the situation.


Your employer is required (OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH REGULATIONS 1996 - REG 3.12 (2b) ) to "ensure that, as far as practicable, persons trained in first aid are available to give first aid at the workplace.. ". The number and type will depend on the nature of your workplace and the size of your work force.

The catch is that your first aiders get sick and go on leave like other people, so even if you only need one, ensuring that one is available usually means having two or three people trained as first aiders. (We have three in an office of fortyfive) And the cerification expires after a few years.

The rub is that your employer (or HSE rep) is probably looking for volunteers to go and do the two day course.

The code of practice is a reasonable jumping off point if your employer looks blankly at you when you mention "first aiders".
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby redned » Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:54 pm

drb: Your description reinforces comments in another thread about two abreast on PSPs.

It is never okay.

Hoping for fast recovery.
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby MilkRacer » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:19 pm

Of the 15 'groups' I counted the last early morning ride I did along that path, only 1 was in single file and the other 14 made no effort to file in, It was I that moved to the left. It's a problem that'll never go away. For all involved in todays incident it's a reminder up close and personal. As for the injured parties, warm wishes for a 100% recovery and hope you return to cycling as soon as your're well enough. And yes, first aid training is a good thing! If you partake in any kind of team/group sport get it done.
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby Marty Moose » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:26 pm

winstonw wrote:
Marty Moose wrote:Knowing that did you use a collar ?? If he was breathing ok, not sure I'd move him without one especially if he was concious. Don't get me wrong I think the recovery position is great (what I've been taught) but I've also not wanted to move people before either.

MM


A lot of people mistakenly think under no circumstances should a suspect neck # be moved, but the algorithm is thus:
1. remove all parties from danger or remove the danger. i.e. this guy was lying on a busy 4 lane highway. we had enough people around to control traffic, but if it happened on the blind side of the crest of a hill on a more remote high speed road, you'd move him, while stablizing the neck as best as possible.
2. airways and breathing are next priority. if the guy cannot breathe he is going to die anyway, despite a suspected fractured neck. you therefore have to do whatever is required to get the airways open and air into the lungs. moving the head slowly and gently into position would be appropriate.

I didn't use a collar because - didn't have one (I was cycling in the same pack) and I was able to stay with him and cradle his head. He was conscious and had bad concussion and was not aware of what had happened, and wanted to keep getting up...so it was better I stayed with him and kept him calm, engaged, and answered the same questions he repeated every 2-3 minutes. Incidentally, I expected the ambo to be no more than 8 minutes, but it took 24 minutes, which I was seriously annoyed about and wrote to my local member about. Nevertheless, I didn't make the 000 call so don't know what info the services were given.

I didn't have a collar, though it is easy to make one out of newspaper....but there would have been risk trying to get it on, and it may have been so uncomfortable the victim would move too much. A neck brace wouldn't have stopped the head from slumping or rotating left/right while supine.
The one case for applying a mock collar immediately would have been if he had stopped breathing, we could have started EAR +/- CPR without someone having to support his head as carefully.

Cheers Winstonw sort of what I expected, except the news paper I'll have to check that out I'm curious.

MM

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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby Lizzy » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:54 pm

Gads, that is awful, I'll be taking another look over my training manuals tonight I think. Fast healing vibes to those in need of them ...
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby jules21 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:43 pm

drb wrote:there was two riders coming the other way doing around 30kph two abreast and our bunch doing just over 30kph when they hit head on locking bars..

Bunches and riders need to stay single file on the paths and limit there speeds it's safer to ride on road with cars then the cycle paths

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people who ride on shared paths over the centreline need to be sent to cycling re-education camp. i know of a guy who is learning to walk all over again due to similar crash. you can 6-abreast for all i care, just be sure you can STAY CLEAR OF THE CENTRELINE!

best wishes to those who were injured here.
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby SJ76 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:11 pm

Well that's me on the ground. And the kid that caused it is standing around looking fine.

To get the story straight, the junior decided it was a great idea to move into the opposite lane, at the exact moment of an oncoming cyclist doing the right thing and staying well within her boundary. He clipped her and broke her hand. I was behind him and went fly into the air landing on my head. The guy behind me ran over the kids bike and hopefully broke it.

2 lessons to learn here: 1) If you're going to ride like an idiot, do it in your own space. 2) Stay in your own lane
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby ramp » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:30 pm

I ride the Kwinana PSP most days AM/PM peak hours. This time of year is chaotic as there is high volume traffic flow both ways. I guess people out riding rather than riding too or from work. Not in any position to comment on how the incident that started this thread occurred but I have seen many opportunities for this type of incident with groups riding 2 abreast on the PSP and the inner bike usually following the centre line. I have even been heckled for holding my line mid lane. Selfish, boorish, mob behaviour and just dumb. This very busy PSP accommodates a wide variety of riders as well as walkers.
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby Aushiker » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:32 am

SJ76 wrote:2 lessons to learn here: 1) If you're going to ride like an idiot, do it in your own space. 2) Stay in your own lane


I would suggest there is a third lesson to be learnt here by all and that is stick to single file on shared paths unless overtaking, particularly when riding in groups and well a fourth lesson as of course as you state, keep left, but I would take it further and suggest one should keep their whole bike in the left lane, not pushing the boundaries of the centre line ... Amazing what a positive difference that makes to everyone's experience of using what is a SHARED path.

For clarity on the road rules, please refer to to the WA Road Code which actually makes riding two abreast unless passing on shared paths illegal.

Regards
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby drb » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:04 pm

Sj76 hope you pulled up ok and have a quick recovery
Te kids bike snapped in half like a twig
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby Shiny Side Up » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:03 pm

How "junior" was the junior?

Had young bloke drafting me last week (uninvited) down the PSP and then along the Mounts Bay Rd path. He didn't get the hint that I didn't want me on my tail (slowing down, moving to the centre etc) so I sat up and turned around.He then attempted a pass around one of the the tighter curves, but there was a small pack coming the other way. If I didn't brake hard, he would have squeezed me onto the grass (river?). He was wearing dark green racing kit.
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby jlh » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:06 pm

Shiny Side Up wrote:How "junior" was the junior?

Had young bloke drafting me last week (uninvited) down the PSP and then along the Mounts Bay Rd path. He didn't get the hint that I didn't want me on my tail (slowing down, moving to the centre etc) so I sat up and turned around.He then attempted a pass around one of the the tighter curves, but there was a small pack coming the other way. If I didn't brake hard, he would have squeezed me onto the grass (river?). He was wearing dark green racing kit.


Caught some old guy today on a hill on the Freo loop and he then had the courtesy to draft me for the last stint from Majestic to Raffles and up to the city. Uninvited drafters, people riding 2 abreast, it all comes down to attitude I reckon.
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby hanzao » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:12 pm

SJ76 wrote:Well that's me on the ground. And the kid that caused it is standing around looking fine.

To get the story straight, the junior decided it was a great idea to move into the opposite lane, at the exact moment of an oncoming cyclist doing the right thing and staying well within her boundary. He clipped her and broke her hand. I was behind him and went fly into the air landing on my head. The guy behind me ran over the kids bike and hopefully broke it.

2 lessons to learn here: 1) If you're going to ride like an idiot, do it in your own space. 2) Stay in your own lane


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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby simonn » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:37 pm

Even if people do not know first aid they can still be useful. There were plenty of people around which could be used. A couple could go 30-50M (or whatever) in either direction to stop/slow other traffic/bicycles etc. If there are vehicle access points you know of where an ambulance or paramedics might gain access get someone to go there and flag them down/direct them - unlikely, but the few seconds/minutes saved by getting an ambulance could make a difference, it is certainly not going to hurt.
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby Roinik » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:08 am

Aushiker wrote:I would suggest there is a third lesson to be learnt here by all and that is stick to single file on shared paths unless overtaking, particularly when riding in groups and well a fourth lesson as of course as you state, keep left, but I would take it further and suggest one should keep their whole bike in the left lane, not pushing the boundaries of the centre line ... Amazing what a positive difference that makes to everyone's experience of using what is a SHARED path.

For clarity on the road rules, please refer to to the WA Road Code which actually makes riding two abreast unless passing on shared paths illegal.

Regards
Andrew


Andrew, make sure you get a lid for that VM when you order it. It sounds like the PSP system in Perth is becoming overloaded at peak times and requires an 'upgrade'. The rest of us can only hope that a: we get better bikeways and b: people get out of their metal lounge rooms and onto two (or three) wheels, HPV style, and use them.

All the best with having a recalcitrant car-centric Govt (it doesn't matter which one it is or has been) with the RACWA representing the cycling community.
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby stealthbike » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:36 pm

This incident is just another example of what happens when cylists do not adhere to riding in single file on PSPs. They have happened before and unfortunately they will continue to happen (and people will continue to be injured) until something changes. No matter how many comments are posted on this site, it is unlikely that they will result in changed behaviour from the offenders. I have raised this in a different thread. I am now wondering what role our cycling orgnisations can or should be playing in educating and preventing this particular behavoiur? BWA, BTA, etc could take a proactive stance and initiate a campaign to prevent future incidents. Cllearly the police are not interested, the Government will not provide sufficient funds to build appropriate infrastructure, so really it falls to cyclists and their representative organisations to try to do something. If this were to happen, then I would really believe that they were representing me as a cyclist in a tangible way.
It would be cheap and simple to paint signs on the PSPs to remind all cyclists to ride in single file. Perhaps there could be a representative group at the Narrows Bridge and at Canning Bridge who stop and educate groups on some mornings? :idea:
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby JBark » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:33 pm

Roinik wrote:It sounds like the PSP system in Perth is becoming overloaded at peak times and requires an 'upgrade'.


The thing is, it's not overloaded at all, and that's what drives many of us so crazy. If it was chockers full of riders then we'd probably understand a few close brushes every now and then, but even at the busiest of times there a huge stretches with no other riders. So there's literally no excuse for the kind of accidents that are occurring.

Hell, I was almost taken out myself just a couple days ago by an organised group ride (blue kit with white stripe down each side) who were riding 3 wide staggered (so taking up a bit more than 2 wide), through the curvy stretch just north of Mt Henry bridge. I come around a corner, and I'm face to face with a guy doing 30kph+ right towards me in my own lane. I hear a few "bike up!"s and I swerve over as far as I can, just missing him. There's no pedestrians around, no other cyclists, so absolutely zero reason to be riding in the other lane, especially when you can't see oncoming riders. And these guys are riding at 730AM heading against the flow of traffic, so there were probably dozens of other riders both before and after me who had to deal with them. If you have to yell "Bike up!" while riding on a PSP, you're doing it wrong.

Counting down the days till the winter rains when the only other riders are the regular commuters who understand how to safely ride on the PSP.
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:55 pm

JBark wrote:
Roinik wrote:It sounds like the PSP system in Perth is becoming overloaded at peak times and requires an 'upgrade'.


The thing is, it's not overloaded at all, and that's what drives many of us so crazy. If it was chockers full of riders then we'd probably understand a few close brushes every now and then, but even at the busiest of times there a huge stretches with no other riders. So there's literally no excuse for the kind of accidents that are occurring.


I don't think it is overly crowded either, though the PSP betwen Caning Bridge and the Narrows is inadequate generally. Too thin, too many overhanging branches and to many crumbling edges and raised lumpy bits. Compounded by nowhere to have any run-out in case of loss of control. Fortunately there are not spots of poor line-of-sight however.

Short of gross error or some form of health-attack or equipment failure I cannot see any reason why an accident should occur at that particular spot.

I posted elsewhere a couple of months ago that I noticed, out or proportion to the slight increase in traffic, that I was suddenly seeing several rider every trip that were cutting in late and two many wide and bad passing decisions. This happened in the short space of a week or so.

Good to see spotter in blue placed at Perth end for oncoming riders. I assume the same at the southern end.
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Re: Jan 3 2013 Cyclists Down Kwinana PSP

Postby Shiny Side Up » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:38 pm

Kwinana PSP this morning, a bloke jumps on my wheel so I sat up and told him to go around. Anyway, I had to freewheel to avoid closing up too much on him, so I overtake. He jumps on my wheel again. I sit up and say "c'mon maaate", and he yells "I'm allowed to sit on your tail!".

I take off and he follows (but a few metres back) just to show me.....

If I'm out for a ride by myself, I shouldn't have to accommodate another rider's desire to get a draft. If you want to draft, get a mate or join a bunch. I'm not comfortable with someone I don't know sitting 30cm off my rear wheel on a PSP.
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