Kwinana PSP

Kwinana PSP

Postby damonik » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:09 pm

A thought I had this morning as I dodged the riders heading down the freeway, 2 and 3 abreast. My first thought was that they're annoying and dangerous, my second was well, perhaps they don't know the law.

That led to a simple thought - why isn't there any signage on the Kwinana freeway psp to let cyclists know that they should be riding single file? Is this something that BWA or BTAWA can approach Mainroads about?

Seems like a logical step to me.
Last edited by damonik on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by BNA » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:35 pm

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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:35 pm

damonik wrote:A thought I had this morning as I dodged the riders heading down the freeway, 2 and 3 abreast. My first thought was that they're annoying and dangerous, my second was well, perhaps they don't know the law.

That led to a simgple thought - why isn't there any signage on the Kwinana freeway psp to let cyclists know that they should be riding single file? Is this something that BWA or BTAWA can approach Mainroads about?

Seems like a logical step to me.

Cheap. Easy. WIll have some effect on a reasonalbe number of people so why not?
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby wellington_street » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:37 pm

Brilliant idea. Something like:

"REMEMBER
ALWAYS RIDE SINGLE FILE
ON PATHS"

A bit like the signs you see around town "REMEMBER TURNING VEHICLES MUST GIVE WAY TO PEDESTRIANS" etc (obviously smaller for placement on the path)
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby Tornado » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:20 pm

You could even paint it on the path. Probably cheaper than signs. Handful of stencils and some pavement paint.
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby Sprocket » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:47 pm

Tornado wrote:You could even paint it on the path. Probably cheaper than signs. Handful of stencils and some pavement paint.


And given that most cyclists seem to look more at the ground than sign height it would probably be more effective to paint on the path. I think it's a great idea. As the OP stated people breaking the rules is bound to be due more to ignorance of them rather than wilful disrespect of them. I confess I didn't know about the single file on PSP until being given a brochure at one of the Ride To Work breakfasts.
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby MarkG » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:49 pm

Because unfortunately, and sadly, those who refuse to exercise common sense and due respect to fellow PSP users at present are the type who are unlikely to pay attention to any signs or the like.
Long story short, you can put up all the signs you want, but unless there's a way to enforce it, well the status quo will be maintained.
I look at the people who this very sign is aimed at, and I'd bet my left nut on it that they couldn't give a s**t about a sign.

While same will claim not to know the law, and some quite honestly choose to ignore it, most of it comes down to discretion which these people seem to lack.
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby moosterbounce » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:26 pm

Yeah, let's recommend this because the giant painted arrows on the psp really help both hoon cyclists and peds to keep left :roll:

I'll vote for any political party at the next election the extends noon laws to cyclists. Ride like an idiot, we'll impound your bike for a month. Ride to endanger others and we'll crush your bike. Now we're talkin' :D
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby Sprocket » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:32 pm

moosterbounce wrote:Yeah, let's recommend this because the giant painted arrows on the psp really help both hoon cyclists and peds to keep left :roll:


Fair call :lol:

But even if it works to educate non-hoon cyclists who don't know the rules that would be an improvement!
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby damonik » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:49 am

moosterbounce wrote:Yeah, let's recommend this because the giant painted arrows on the psp really help both hoon cyclists and peds to keep left :roll:


Thanks for your contribution. Does a giant arrow indicating that people keep left convey the same message as 'ride single file'? I'd argue not.
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby moosterbounce » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:30 am

damonik wrote:
moosterbounce wrote:Yeah, let's recommend this because the giant painted arrows on the psp really help both hoon cyclists and peds to keep left :roll:


Thanks for your contribution. Does a giant arrow indicating that people keep left convey the same message as 'ride single file'? I'd argue not.


Definitely not, but those who ignore the keep left signage will ignore any other. Just my cynical opinion based on my observations.
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby MarkG » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:59 pm

People who choose to blatantly ignore the rules of the 'road' whether these being factual rules or even just part of common sense cycling are going to continue to ignore any rules that are put in place.

Like moosterbounce says, it's based on experience, and cynicism aside, it's hard to think any thing other than the contrary is going to happen.

I've been riding long enough and seen a lot of things out there in my life on the roads which not only make you shake your head in disbelief, but lead you to realise that people like this aren't going to pay attention to any rules put in place.

You can't really expect that someone who chooses to a) over take 3 guys around a bend b) rides on the wrong side of the road in a group ride c) rides two a breast on the PSP during peak hours and other selfish minded actions are going to suddenly see a written sign and go ' I better change what I do' it's an attitude thing. Most those guys above have been riding long enough to know what they should and shouldn't do out there, and choose to 'break the rules'.
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby damonik » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:11 pm

A positive change is better than no change, because clearly yelling and cursing at them isn't helping.

I still think some of the problem comes down to ignorance of the rules, at least some kind of signage might educate those who are actually ignorant and not just being tools.
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby roller » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:22 pm

i think a strongly worded leaflet would do the trick.

have people hand them out to cyclists as they go past.
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby MilkRacer » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:24 pm

Motorists in WA can't keep left, cyclists here just continue with the same 'no common sense' attitude while cycling. :roll:
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby wellington_street » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:46 pm

roller wrote:i think a strongly worded leaflet would do the trick.

have people hand them out to cyclists as they go past.


Interpretive dance at key entrance points to the PSP?
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby Lizzy » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:18 pm

Sprocket wrote:
Tornado wrote:You could even paint it on the path. Probably cheaper than signs. Handful of stencils and some pavement paint.


And given that most cyclists seem to look more at the ground than sign height it would probably be more effective to paint on the path. I think it's a great idea. As the OP stated people breaking the rules is bound to be due more to ignorance of them rather than wilful disrespect of them. I confess I didn't know about the single file on PSP until being given a brochure at one of the Ride To Work breakfasts.


I have some faith in that idea. Just every couple of km, a bike symbol with "single file" maybe. Although it might look like there are plenty who don't care, I would think plenty more just don't know.
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby blkmcs » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:30 pm

Lizzy wrote:
Sprocket wrote:
Tornado wrote:You could even paint it on the path. Probably cheaper than signs. Handful of stencils and some pavement paint.


And given that most cyclists seem to look more at the ground than sign height it would probably be more effective to paint on the path. I think it's a great idea. As the OP stated people breaking the rules is bound to be due more to ignorance of them rather than wilful disrespect of them. I confess I didn't know about the single file on PSP until being given a brochure at one of the Ride To Work breakfasts.


I have some faith in that idea. Just every couple of km, a bike symbol with "single file" maybe. Although it might look like there are plenty who don't care, I would think plenty more just don't know.

Providing a safe cycling environment requires following the 3 Es of Engineering, Education and Enforcement.
The Engineering is in place although not all of it is designed for safe cycling.
However there is precious little Education and signs on the path would go some way towards providing a little of this.
If there is precious little Education then there is next to nothing by way of Enforcement.
The installation of signs could be followed up by the issuing of infringements by either WA Police or local Council Rangers, sometimes Enforcement that hits the wallet is the most effective Education.
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby MarkG » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:43 pm

Enforcing it / policing it's going to be akin to pushing !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! up hill I'm afraid.
A case of 'expenditure not justifying what they bring in' or something.
A classic case was the the rule that came in a while back where cops could ping you for driving in the right lane - that didn't last.
It seems we've become such a nanny state that in a lot of cases, we need to be told to use common senses and discretion.
So sad when we need people to tell us to use our heads for such a simple act as riding a push bike.
I'm sure when my parents were growing up, they didn't need to be told such simple things as 'don't force others off the foot path' or 'don't ride two a breast when there's oncoming traffic'.
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby moosterbounce » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:01 pm

roller wrote:i think a strongly worded leaflet would do the trick.

have people hand them out to cyclists as they go past.


Love it. Chuck it in a musette and make people feel they are part of Le Tour :D
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby find_bruce » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:49 pm

roller wrote:i think a strongly worded leaflet would do the trick.

have people hand them out to cyclists as they go past.

wellington_street wrote:Interpretive dance at key entrance points to the PSP?

I'm with Roller, while they are reeling from the leaflet campaign then follow up with a whist drive, a car boot sale, some street theatre and possibly even some benefit concerts, okay. Now if that's not enough, I'm sorry then it is time for the T-shirts
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby nickobec » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:55 pm

At the moment you have the ignorant, the arrogant and the tools falling to keep left.

The tools will only change their behaviour after collecting a 100kg rider coming the other way and then after spending 3 months in hospital, coming home to 100k bill because the other rider have a video camera and was off work for 3 months as a FIFO because off their injuries.

The arrogant will change their behaviour when most other people do and they are seen as outside normal behaviour

The ignorant, hopefully will change behaviour when the know the rules and the consequences.

I would like to see a few single file signs or stencils on the PSP from Mount Henry or earlier to the city.

I would also like to see at a few entry points to the PSP, big signs saying "You are entering a shared path, different road rules apply" and in smaller print
"as a cyclist this means:
1: giving way to pedestrians
2: Riding in single file;
3: keeping left; etc"
and
"as a pedestrain this means:
1: keeping left;
2: do not obstruct the path or other users;
etc"
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby wellington_street » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:57 pm

I see this as the only way forward for the PSP

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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:05 pm

MarkG wrote:Enforcing it / policing it's going to be akin to pushing Showtime up hill I'm afraid.
A case of 'expenditure not justifying what they bring in' or something.
A classic case was the the rule that came in a while back where cops could ping you for driving in the right lane - that didn't last.
It seems we've become such a nanny state that in a lot of cases, we need to be told to use common senses and discretion.
So sad when we need people to tell us to use our heads for such a simple act as riding a push bike.
I'm sure when my parents were growing up, they didn't need to be told such simple things as 'don't force others off the foot path' or 'don't ride two a breast when there's oncoming traffic'.

Never fear - your (my) parents did just as much stupidity - it was just a different stupidity at that time.

Aah, common sense. Common sense is often wrong. (Does that indicate then that it is common for people to do wrong things. :mrgreen: )

But much of what signs and being told does is put people on the same page. It IS often sensible that everyone does the same as those around them. It makes for less surprises.

There are lots of places and situation where there is nothing stupid or dangerous about riding two abreast. Many will be doing it safely while thinking it was legal.

Signage will not stop everyone. But some will fall into line just because they tend to obey rules. Even more will if it is policed and offenders sense a real possibility of being sanctioned.

You are probably right about "expenditure not justifying what they bring in' or something". Occasional blitzes have more benefit than steady but ultra-light policing.
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby orbeas » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:09 pm

Put a few bollards down the centre of the bike path, thatl sort em :)
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Re: Kwinana PSP

Postby MarkG » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:14 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
MarkG wrote:Enforcing it / policing it's going to be akin to pushing Showtime up hill I'm afraid.
A case of 'expenditure not justifying what they bring in' or something.
A classic case was the the rule that came in a while back where cops could ping you for driving in the right lane - that didn't last.
It seems we've become such a nanny state that in a lot of cases, we need to be told to use common senses and discretion.
So sad when we need people to tell us to use our heads for such a simple act as riding a push bike.
I'm sure when my parents were growing up, they didn't need to be told such simple things as 'don't force others off the foot path' or 'don't ride two a breast when there's oncoming traffic'.

Never fear - your (my) parents did just as much stupidity - it was just a different stupidity at that time.

Aah, common sense. Common sense is often wrong. (Does that indicate then that it is common for people to do wrong things. :mrgreen: )

But much of what signs and being told does is put people on the same page. It IS often sensible that everyone does the same as those around them. It makes for less surprises.

There are lots of places and situation where there is nothing stupid or dangerous about riding two abreast. Many will be doing it safely while thinking it was legal.

Signage will not stop everyone. But some will fall into line just because they tend to obey rules. Even more will if it is policed and offenders sense a real possibility of being sanctioned.

You are probably right about "expenditure not justifying what they bring in' or something". Occasional blitzes have more benefit than steady but ultra-light policing.



I'll admit I ride two a breast in certain situations - usually

a) south bound from Cockburn to Rockingham on my daily routine, when, at 6.00 am , I can count probably 5 cyclists in total that I will pass in the opp direction.
b) north bound in certain areas, but never anywhere north of Berrigan Dve and up past the Mt Henry.

It's a shame that someone has to damage or write off a bike or a person before they realise "maybe I should have slowed down or used my head".
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