Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:44 pm

I can see justification in Roller's question of whether cycle hating motorists are giving their real reason for ranting about cyclists. For some motorists grizzling about red light infringements may sound better than complaining that they don't like being delayed in any way by having to get around the occasional rider. One complaint is about selfishness, the other can be peddled as overall concern for everyone's safety.

I don't find a lot of credibility in many of the reasons that people give hating cyclists. The last thing I trust is their honesty.

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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby Thoglette » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:02 am

roller wrote:....but has the sin ever been shown to be the reason for a road-rage incident against a cyclist?


Directly - in the sense that "Why did I run him over? Because he ran the red light, your Honour!", I doubt it.

However, (and I'm going to be too lazy to cite the appropriate academic works), there is a direct causal link between callous, violent discrimination and the two elements of "not one of us" and "unworthy, unclean or inferior".

Running red lights directly creates the second element - running a red light is often considered either stupid, rude or both.

It also re-enforces the former as relatively few car drivers run red lights these days (I did see a late model ute do so last week, so rare as to be noteworthy).
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby argybargy » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:35 am

Thoglette wrote:
roller wrote: as relatively few car drivers run red lights these days...


err I see people doing that all the time, a daily occurance at intersections in the inner city and outer suburbs.
It seems a subset of people treat the amber like green and the first second of red like it is amber.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby Aushiker » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:50 am

argybargy wrote:err I see people doing that all the time, a daily occurance at intersections in the inner city and outer suburbs.
It seems a subset of people treat the amber like green and the first second of red like it is amber.


So do I and clearly we have red light cameras for a reason ...

For what it is worth I have had two from this week that really stood out for me ... one was a guy who was well behind me. I had ample time to stop in my car on the amber; he didn't bother and straight through the red. The second was a guy yesterday at the Freeway interchange (Hodges Drive, Joondalup). I am high alert here on the bike and I heard him speed up to try and beat the amber going red. He had more than sufficient time to stop safely on the amber.

The rest of the amber light runners I see now hardly register it has become so common. It has become so common I have to check myself that I don't start doing it as well (in the car) :oops: .

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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby jaseyjase » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:29 am

I think the red light/speeding cameras are a great idea to combat drivers gunning the amber, i know its changed my driving habbits :oops:

As for red lights, as others have mentioned, ill trust my common sense.

Out of curiosity, if you ask a driver if they prefer to be behind a cyclist at set of a lights, and then have to slowly follow them through an intersection as they are trying to clip in, compared to one jumping the red but then not having to follow them slowly through the intersection, which do you think they will choose?
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby wellington_street » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:58 am

Going through on the amber is not illegal.

Going through a split second after it turns red is, however motorists seem very much ambivalent towards it. And to be fair that is a helluva lot safer than say someone barreling through a red light in the middle of another phase.

The typical cyclist red light run is not a 3 second head start or a split second after it turns red, it's usually going through a red light in the middle of another phase (e.g. I had some dumb young lady do that yesterday on William St, went straight through the red in front of a stream of cars turning right across here with the green arrow) and that's what strikes motorists as rude, arrogant, queue jumpers etc. and contributes to the hate towards cyclists.

I cannot remember the last time I saw a car/truck/bus/motorcycle go through a red light in the middle of another phase. I have seen it but it is so rare that I cannot even remember the last time. That's what you should be comparing to, not amber gamblers.

It's also a symptom of the "Must Get In Front" attitude that so many on this forum like to berate motorists for. I think you'd be very pleasantly surprised how well the road network works when everyone just sticks to the road rules.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby Summernight » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:04 am

wellington_street wrote:Going through on the amber is not illegal.


Well, it is certainly illegal here in Victoria, if you could have safely stopped in time but did not do so on the amber.

Had a 'nice' chat to a policeman in my uni days who pulled me over and gave me a caution because he thought I could have stopped for the amber light that he saw me go through (there was no question of it being red).

So accelerate into them at your own peril. If a cop is feeling like he needs more experience pulling people over he will do so to you if you run the amber.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby wellington_street » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:08 am

I was waiting for that :)

It's a difficult one to prove in a court of law as it relies on a split second decision where one should always err on the side of safety - i.e. proceed through. I think we've all been in a situation where you're on the tipping point of stopping in time or going and you accelerate to make sure you make it on the yellow rather than misjudge and go through on the red.

Ethically I don't have an issue with it as it certainly helps our road networks flow better by allowing an extra vehicle or 6 through in the same phase.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby redned » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:43 am

Mr Wellington: I do wonder about your understanding and interpretation of the law and what is safe.

Notwithstanding whether it is difficult to prove, erring on the side of safety does not mean proceed through. It means stop unless the driver cannot safely stop the vehicle before passing over the stop line. If you have time to accelerate to enter the intersection on amber, you probably had time to stop.

Advocating running amber lights (where it otherwise would be possible to stop) to allow better traffic flow is anarchy.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby wellington_street » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:51 am

redned wrote:Mr Wellington: I do wonder about your understanding and interpretation of the law and what is safe.

Notwithstanding whether it is difficult to prove, erring on the side of safety does not mean proceed through. It means stop unless the driver cannot safely stop the vehicle before passing over the stop line. If you have time to accelerate to enter the intersection on amber, you probably had time to stop.


I think we misunderstood - I was thinking of a situation where there is someone behind you, so to err on the side of safety you proceed through when braking hard to stop may well cause a crash. You were probably thinking of a situation when there's no-one behind you.

redned wrote:Advocating running amber lights (where it otherwise would be possible to stop) to allow better traffic flow is anarchy.


Fair enough.

I was trying to avoid the amber gamble discussion because it's irrelevant to the topic of whether cyclists running red lights contributes to motorists disliking cyclists or not.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby redned » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:58 pm

I think we concur. Unfortunately many do sprint the amber when they have plenty of time to stop. My 20 year old kids call it "going for gold"!
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby Roinik » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:41 pm

wellington_street wrote:I think we misunderstood - I was thinking of a situation where there is someone behind you, so to err on the side of safety you proceed through when braking hard to stop may well cause a crash. You were probably thinking of a situation when there's no-one behind you.


Aka a heavily laden truck or an emergency vehicle. Police can and (sometimes) will commend you on these actions.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby rcmkII » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:30 am

wellington_street wrote:I was waiting for that :)

It's a difficult one to prove in a court of law as it relies on a split second decision where one should always err on the side of safety - i.e. proceed through. I think we've all been in a situation where you're on the tipping point of stopping in time or going and you accelerate to make sure you make it on the yellow rather than misjudge and go through on the red.

Ethically I don't have an issue with it as it certainly helps our road networks flow better by allowing an extra vehicle or 6 through in the same phase.



When I was on my P plates in the 80's I remember stamping on the brakes to stop for an amber light on the highway. THEN I looked in my mirror, and I saw a semi bearing down on me with every wheel locked and smoke pouring from the tyres. So, I planted it and went through.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby trailgumby » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:41 am

CXCommuter wrote:
HLC wrote:
sil3nt wrote: Mountain Bike shorts .


says it all really.


Please explain what is says, I ride a road bike, a mountain bike and a cross bike and use Mountain Bike Shorts because that is what I have and doesn't bother me to use them. What I am really sick of is people in cycling saying this sort of stupidity. I see stupid, dumb and often downright dangerous actions being undertaken by ALL aspects of the cycling fraternity whether they are on a junker because they lost their car license or a sleek bunch of lycra clad roadies and everything in between. Stop forcing the cliche into these debates and look at the individual.

Damn straight.

I mean look at roadies. Rarely say hello, ride in large packs like they own the road, close pass other cyclists like they're Alan Jones in a V8 Yoot, and what's with the lycra thing?

Oh. I wear lycra. Oops. :lol: Did I miss any cliches? :D
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby RonK » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:42 am

wellington_street wrote:Going through on the amber is not illegal.

It is in Queensland, if you could have stopped - I was booked for doing that on my first ever visit to Brisbane. And Qld Police issued a warning about exactly this only a few weeks back. Two days ago I saw the marked police car right in front of me pull over a motorist who drove through amber. I could hardly believe that anyone would be so stupid with a cop right behind them - I can only put it down to ignorance of the law.

And good luck arguing in court that you made a judgement call - the one that counts is the police officer's, not yours.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby queequeg » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:47 am

wellington_street wrote:
I cannot remember the last time I saw a car/truck/bus/motorcycle go through a red light in the middle of another phase. I have seen it but it is so rare that I cannot even remember the last time. That's what you should be comparing to, not amber gamblers.



I see it every day on my commute. They are even installing a whole new safety camera setup at one intersection where red light running by motorists is a common event, and one that I see red light runners at almost every day.

This week I was behind a car turning right. We got the green light and just as the car in front was completing the turn, a BMW came flying through the red light light on the left and slammed on brakes when faced with the car in front. had I been in the left lane to go straight ahead (instead of the right lane), I would have been t-boned and gone over the BMW bonnet.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:42 pm

Thoglette wrote:It also re-enforces the former as relatively few car drivers run red lights these days (I did see a late model ute do so last week, so rare as to be noteworthy).

:shock: Corner of Dudley/Adderley St Melbs in any peak hour, bring a VERY thick, empty notebook.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby am50em » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:06 pm

Roinik wrote:
wellington_street wrote:I think we misunderstood - I was thinking of a situation where there is someone behind you, so to err on the side of safety you proceed through when braking hard to stop may well cause a crash. You were probably thinking of a situation when there's no-one behind you.


Aka a heavily laden truck or an emergency vehicle. Police can and (sometimes) will commend you on these actions.


A heavily laden trunk driven by a professional driver would have left enough space to safely stop and not tailgate.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby HLC » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:40 pm

wellington_street wrote:Going through on the amber is not illegal.


Certainly is in WA - if there is sufficient space to stop.

$150 fine, 2 demerit points.

I got stung for 'contravene amber light' on St Georges Tce late one night in my car. Punched it through the lights while they were amber, didn't see the candy coated cop car waiting to turn right from Plain st onto the Terrace.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby cray- » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:00 pm

This is also why the new red light cameras double as speed cameras, speed up for an amber and you'll get done for going over the limit if not for running a red. At least I know that the cameras are capable of this, not sure what fines they are actually handed out. Don't plan on getting done myself in order to find out but if anyone else wants to, I can provide you with a handy list of locations around Perth. :D
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby The 2nd Womble » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:56 pm

am50em wrote:
Roinik wrote:
wellington_street wrote:I think we misunderstood - I was thinking of a situation where there is someone behind you, so to err on the side of safety you proceed through when braking hard to stop may well cause a crash. You were probably thinking of a situation when there's no-one behind you.


Aka a heavily laden truck or an emergency vehicle. Police can and (sometimes) will commend you on these actions.


A heavily laden trunk driven by a professional driver would have left enough space to safely stop and not tailgate.

Hold that thought right ****** there! The number of w****** that cut me off or pull into the lane ahead of me leaving me nowhere near enough room should anything happen, fail to realise for the complete lack of anything resembling intelligence on any level that a truck does not handle like a car 10% of it's weight and size. Above all else, the a average CAR driver has become a completely underskilled, overconfident, arrogant self rightious Richard of staggering proportions.
If someone does this to me whilst I'm in control of a 12 ton top heavy truck, they will be the ones to suffer the consequences, as I will NEVER swerve into someone else in an effort to save the life of the idiot who shows so little regard for the lives of everyone else on the road. When behind the wheel of my truck, that's the judgement call I'll make every time.
Professional drivers have enough on their plates to deal with without worrying about knobs on our roads.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby The 2nd Womble » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:08 pm

So far in Qld the road toll has blitzed last year for the same period by 16. An increase on 2010 0f 21 fatalities. Of those 65 fatalities so far, none that I know of have been attributed to the operators of heavy vehicles. It will happen at some point this year, but not yet. The overwhelming factors contributing to deaths on our roads is speed and alcohol. The other factors cited by the QPS could be collectively grouped into the subset of Stupidity, including 11 killed attempting to navigate flooded roads.
I can tell you now, if the majority of drivers on Qld roads had to drive a truck (or reverse a Smart Car in one attempt) proficiently in order to gain their licence, our roads would be empty or there be a lot more cyclists.
Can you tell that this truck driver bashing crap gets on my nerves?
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby Baalzamon » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:17 pm

cray- wrote:This is also why the new red light cameras double as speed cameras, speed up for an amber and you'll get done for going over the limit if not for running a red. At least I know that the cameras are capable of this, not sure what fines they are actually handed out. Don't plan on getting done myself in order to find out but if anyone else wants to, I can provide you with a handy list of locations around Perth. :D


btw those new red lights cameras double as speed cameras. If you are speeding anytime BANG caught. Doesn't matter if it is green/amber/red.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby am50em » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:37 am

The 2nd Womble wrote:Hold that thought right ****** there! The number of w****** that cut me off or pull into the lane ahead of me leaving me nowhere near enough room should anything happen, fail to realise for the complete lack of anything resembling intelligence on any level that a truck does not handle like a car 10% of it's weight and size. Above all else, the a average CAR driver has become a completely underskilled, overconfident, arrogant self rightious Richard of staggering proportions.
If someone does this to me whilst I'm in control of a 12 ton top heavy truck, they will be the ones to suffer the consequences, as I will NEVER swerve into someone else in an effort to save the life of the idiot who shows so little regard for the lives of everyone else on the road. When behind the wheel of my truck, that's the judgement call I'll make every time.
Professional drivers have enough on their plates to deal with without worrying about knobs on our roads.


Fair enough but not exactly relevant to the discussion which was not stopping on amber light when you can safely stop.
If someone one cuts in front a truck (or any other vehicle) they are unlikely to stop for amber but in any case they get what they deserve.

Also I would change "CAR driver " to "CAR, TRUCK, BUS driver" in your statement.

Talking about arrogant - there are a number of "professional" truck drivers who regularly manage to drive part way through a traffic controlled intersection and block the intersection (for pedestrians and cars) when the lights change. When I ask "You are supposed to be a professional driver?" they shrug, or tell me the they cannot go forward due to traffic ahead - in which case I point out that maybe they should look more than 20m down the road.
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Re: Some cyclist give the rest of us a terrible name :/

Postby The 2nd Womble » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:51 pm

Again, try accelerating a vehicle that does 0-100 in a minute (at times) without the occasional creeping. We do so to avoid being caught on red, not as a means of running through it. The fine for a Truckie running red in Qld is three times that of the owner if a private vehicle because the company is fined first, at which point the driver is usually forced by their employer to sign the stat dec on the reverse of the ticket to state that they will pay the fine.
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