PSP Speed Limit

abas
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PSP Speed Limit

Postby abas » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:43 pm

Hi guys (non-sexist meaning is intended here),

I have searched everywhere and cannot find any specific reference or law relating to bicycle speeds on the PSP's in Perth. Does anyone know of any regulated speed that we are supposed to be riding at?

Thanks

Alan

citywomble
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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby citywomble » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:15 pm

Hi,

I have searched everywhere and cannot find any specific reference or law relating to bicycle speeds on the PSP's in Perth. Does anyone know of any regulated speed that we are supposed to be riding at?


The issue of what is an appropriate speed on a Shared Path (SP) is complex and not directly related to one specific law or well understood by the regulators or enforcers..

Firstly, a PSP is a specific type of shared path - a 'Principal' one. These are generally provided by the state government, along major transport corridors (freeways and railways) and is primarily intended for commuting and as a result often promoted as a fast cycling route, BUT, it remains a shared path with pedestrian priority.

Most Shared Paths are not PSPs and are not provided or intended for fast cycling. Although the regulators (state governments) often contend that speed limits cannot be applied or enforced on paths they are incorrect. In fact, given the design codes for SPs, there is arguably a clear duty of care obligation on regulators to post speed limits.

Austroads is the design code for roads and paths and is also the key document which any magistrate is able to refer to to determine whether the 'road manager' exercised proper duty of care. This document is very clear that a shared path is only suitable where speeds do not exceed 20kph. It is from that clear guidance that a defining appropriate speed is established.

In WA on all shared paths within the road reserve and PSPs elsewhere the regulatory powers sit with the state government (MRWA) who up to now have not posted any speed limits. That does not mean, however, that a speed limit is absent. Under the Road Traffic Code 2000 a speeding cyclist can be prosecuted for riding recklessly (section 229B) and, given that the appropriate maximum speed for a shared path is documented in the applicable design codes as 20kph, any speed that is seriously above that is potentially reckless.

Probably more relevant, and potentially with serious implications for cyclists, is that in the event where an accident caused serious injury to a pedestrian (or even another cyclist) then the cyclist could be deemed to be riding recklessly with all the consequences following on from that.

The logical conclusion is that there is a de facto 'speed limit' on shared paths of 20kph although, where it is not formally signed, the road authority may be considered just as liable as the cyclist, if not more so, for failing to post an appropriate limit.

Note: One of the main reasons why 20 kph is an appropriate limit is that, on a shared path, a cyclist is required to Give Way to any pedestrian on or crossing the shared path - and how can you do that at speed?
Now we come to PSPs:

Because they are actively promoted as fast commuting routes it is hard to see how a cyclist could be expected to cycle slowly. In fact the road authority responsible for their provision, without any speed regulation, could potentially be more at fault than the cyclist. Perhaps the main issue here is that fast cycling paths (PSPs) should not be shared with pedestrians. In that case, unless or until they are exclusive bike paths, then they should have a speed limit. BUT, in my opinion, a faster posted speed limit might be appropriate, together with a warning to pedestrians of fast cyclists. Until then cyclists are always in the invidious position of having to give way to all pedestrians which is not compatible with the intended speeds.

Usual caveats: I am not a lawyer, but I am conversant with both the regulations and design codes as well as significant legal advice relating to both.

abas
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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby abas » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:23 pm

Excellent, Thankyou for your very detailed explanation. 20kph is fine as I was slower than this when my accident occurred. For some reason I thought 10kph was the limit and that would be ridiculous but then I read the recent legislation update that allowed powered bikes up to 25 kph on the paths so I started thinking it must be faster.

Thankyou again for your prompt and detailed response...even with the appropriate disclaimer, which I expected anyway.

Alan

nachoman
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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby nachoman » Wed May 25, 2016 9:42 pm

Minister and Opposition discussing speed limits on shared paths, notably Kwinana Freeway PSP between Canning and Narrows Bridge


softy
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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby softy » Wed May 25, 2016 10:51 pm

this is all very well, but there are complications with all the above.
1. know calibrated speed indicated, if fitted.
2. police have said they will not police PSPs
3. police do not attend vehicle accidents, so do you think they are going to attend bicycle/ped collisions?
4.These collisions don't cause as serious accidents as cars (which they don't attend anyway)
5. how do they evaluate dangerous? stats per person commuting compared to cars?
6. this will cause a massive detterent, or cyclist will ride other more dangerous route to avoid the low speed limit.

It really will not work, it may sound good in a BBQ discussion, but cyclists want to average 25 to 30km, therefore speed will be in access of 30 to 35 km. if they set something like 20 or 25km. cyclist will just detour along roads where the road limit applies creating even more accidents

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby NASHIE » Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 am

Agree, good in theory to set 35kph limit, but it will never happen or be policed. I think riders can safely ride at 35kph solo, but anything above that and in a train is not being a courteous path user to peds or other riders. Way to many riders not backing off when passing peds with oncoming traffic is my observation in that whole canning river PSP area....im gussing they have strava times to beat :roll:

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby Rusty6149 » Thu May 26, 2016 12:48 pm

I'm surprised the Canning Bridge-Narrows PS was singled out in the report,as being particularly dangerous. I experience very few pedestrians through here - except at the very end where people walk to Canning Station.

The section between Canning and Mt Henry is much more heavily used, and could benefit from separation, and a re-lay of the cycle path, which is dangerously bumpy.

There was a camera and reporter at the Hardy Street footbridge this morning, so I think there will be a follow up story tonight. Fame at last !

--Rusty

softy
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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby softy » Thu May 26, 2016 8:53 pm

Rusty6149 wrote:I'm surprised the Canning Bridge-Narrows PS was singled out in the report,as being particularly dangerous. I experience very few pedestrians through here - except at the very end where people walk to Canning Station.

The section between Canning and Mt Henry is much more heavily used, and could benefit from separation, and a re-lay of the cycle path, which is dangerously bumpy.

There was a camera and reporter at the Hardy Street footbridge this morning, so I think there will be a follow up story tonight. Fame at last !

--Rusty


spot on....

dangerous is a subjective word, what we may perceive is not necessarily the truth. without studies done on the volume vs accidents through this area, it is just a guestimate. One thing I do know is the canning bridge to Narrows section is recorded as the heaviest PSP usage. therefore with percentages remaining constant across Perth, it will by default have the most accidents, but not necessary the most by percentage.

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bychosis
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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby bychosis » Fri May 27, 2016 8:21 am

NASHIE wrote:Agree, good in theory to set 35kph limit, but it will never happen or be policed. I think riders can safely ride at 35kph solo, but anything above that and in a train is not being a courteous path user to peds or other riders. Way to many riders not backing off when passing peds with oncoming traffic is my observation in that whole canning river PSP area....im gussing they have strava times to beat :roll:


You really think that they would set the limit that high? I can see them (non cyclists) wanting to set it at 20km/h, or maybe 25 max. This could possibly be approved by 'regular joe' cyclists that don't understand that traveling at 30km/h is not only achievable, but quite efficient.

Personally I ride our local sharepath at around 28km/h commuting. I slow a little to pass the morning exercise crowd with no dramas if necessary, but if there is afternoon traffic it tends to be less business and more leisurely so I need to slow more, particularly around kids. Some people don't get that though, and are constantly 'running late' so think they need to ride as fast as possible everywhere, not as fast as is reasonable or that courteosy allows. The path I use is actually signed with recommended a 10km/h limit, which is stupidly slow.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

방구 똥
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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby 방구 똥 » Fri May 27, 2016 9:22 am

If the limit is set at 35 km/h, then everyone will be accelerating to 35 km/h and getting angry at people who aren't at 35 km/h.
Or maybe we will behave differently to when driving on the road :D

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby NASHIE » Fri May 27, 2016 1:57 pm

bychosis wrote:You really think that they would set the limit that high? I can see them (non cyclists) wanting to set it at 20km/h, or maybe 25 max. This could possibly be approved by 'regular joe' cyclists that don't understand that traveling at 30km/h is not only achievable, but quite efficient.


No i can't see a 35 or 30kph being set, and agree 'if' it ever did happen it would be 20/25kph which would be a nice little revenue raiser. Agree with others that you dont get many peds on the Canning bridge to perth section, and i think there is a ped path in certain sections. The section between Canning and Mt Henry on the Eastern side is very poor with many blind cnrs and peds on Saturdays/Sundays and in its current form is really a 20kph zone.

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby Gunnadothat » Fri May 27, 2016 11:19 pm

20-25kph is too slow even for an ancient 50-something with a heart condition like me..30-35 is just fine.. if it's set to the LCD (lowest common denominator) then I'll be off the path and onto Labouchere Road in South Perth and The Esplanade in Mount Pleasant.
When the path is empty except for the odd runner and the roads are clogged, perhaps our political dog whistlers will see the error of their ways.

softy
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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby softy » Fri May 27, 2016 11:24 pm

This would be like saying to walkers and runners the speed limit is 4km/hr. either no one will run their or it will always be broken.

It really is a stupid idea, to have a bicycle speed limit, it is totally impracticable and laughable. Imagine suggesting something like this in Europe....

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby cj7hawk » Sun May 29, 2016 11:33 am

There is an enforced speed limit on all paths, shared paths and bicycle paths around Kings Park. 20 kph.

This is the only one I am presently aware of in WA.

20 kph isn't a suitable speed limit at all - On most paths, up to 40 kph would be fine, and are fine on power cycles ( if they can go that fast ) - this is, after all, the same speed that cars are permitted to drive through school zones at, and bicycles don't represent nearly as much danger to a pedestrian as a car at this speed.

Bicycles just need to slow to a reasonable safe speed when passing pedestrians, or riding where there are a lot of people. They also need to use their bells more - and despite the suggestions that bells make pedestrians do strange things, I find that the strange behavior is mostly around parks and when they have dogs on leashes. Generally pedestrians seem to appreciate the bell and many will ensure you have plenty of room.

Also, I've noticed most pedestrians with headphones on busy shared paths seem to realize that cycles will overtake at speed and walk accordingly, off to one side, and predictably. So it's only the cyclists who ride really fast, or form pelotons that won't ride single file that are a problem in the first place. And there aren't many of them.

So we should push for policing the 1% of dangerous riders, over setting a blanket speed on all cyclists.

David.

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby cj7hawk » Sun May 29, 2016 11:35 am

Gunnadothat wrote:20-25kph is too slow even for an ancient 50-something with a heart condition like me..30-35 is just fine.. if it's set to the LCD (lowest common denominator) then I'll be off the path and onto Labouchere Road in South Perth and The Esplanade in Mount Pleasant.
When the path is empty except for the odd runner and the roads are clogged, perhaps our political dog whistlers will see the error of their ways.


Or rather, when they have to wait behind us on the roads, for that extra 10 seconds to pass, and they ask "Why don't they use the paths... Oh that's right, we made that speed limit to slow them down" maybe they will see the error of their ways. :lol:

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby softy » Sun May 29, 2016 6:57 pm

cj7hawk wrote:There is an enforced speed limit on all paths, shared paths and bicycle paths around Kings Park. 20 kph.

This is the only one I am presently aware of in WA.

20 kph isn't a suitable speed limit at all - On most paths, up to 40 kph would be fine, and are fine on power cycles ( if they can go that fast ) - this is, after all, the same speed that cars are permitted to drive through school zones at, and bicycles don't represent nearly as much danger to a pedestrian as a car at this speed.

Bicycles just need to slow to a reasonable safe speed when passing pedestrians, or riding where there are a lot of people. They also need to use their bells more - and despite the suggestions that bells make pedestrians do strange things, I find that the strange behavior is mostly around parks and when they have dogs on leashes. Generally pedestrians seem to appreciate the bell and many will ensure you have plenty of room.

Also, I've noticed most pedestrians with headphones on busy shared paths seem to realize that cycles will overtake at speed and walk accordingly, off to one side, and predictably. So it's only the cyclists who ride really fast, or form pelotons that won't ride single file that are a problem in the first place. And there aren't many of them.

So we should push for policing the 1% of dangerous riders, over setting a blanket speed on all cyclists.

David.



This makes so much sense!

Yes if 40km is deemed as sufficiently slow for a high pedestrian area of school children, then why should bicycles be limited further. A motor vehicle is a greater risk, even with this reduced speed in these areas, drivers have great difficulty complying, schools are a speed camera windfall!!

I agree, 40km in areas of pedestrians is I believe adequate using this standard. if 40km is dangerous then cars should be made to go slower in school areas as well. But good luck with community agreement and compliance.

The plain fact is, if government lower speeds below 35 0r 40km then bikes will move back to the roads and this is a backwards step for car vs bike relations and accidents.

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby NASHIE » Sun May 29, 2016 9:00 pm

Really, forget cars analogies ..........If you guys think riding at 40kph in a 1.2-1.5m wide shared path lane in high pedestrian areas is acceptable, then it sounds like we really do need some speed limits and a 1m passing rule on PSPs. Buzzing peds by 50-100mm at 40kph is exactly the same as being shaved by a car....not the same risk factors, but still not acceptable. Separation is the only solution, which Nalder did mention in his comments.

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby softy » Sun May 29, 2016 10:38 pm

NASHIE wrote:Really, forget cars analogies ..........If you guys think riding at 40kph in a 1.2-1.5m wide shared path lane in high pedestrian areas is acceptable, then it sounds like we really do need some speed limits and a 1m passing rule on PSPs. Buzzing peds by 50-100mm at 40kph is exactly the same as being shaved by a car....not the same risk factors, but still not acceptable. Separation is the only solution, which Nalder did mention in his comments.


I think you need to check the Australian Standards for cycle paths (I am not sure on the exact width but it is a lot wider than 1.2 -1.5 metres (maybe per lane) it is more closer to 2.5 -3.0 metres (ones in WA are this wide). I can clearly pass a pedestrian at 1.2 -1.5 metres, now taking this into consideration.

If children are standing on the kerb waiting to cross at a school crossing, isn't the distance between a car passing and the children around 1.2 -1.5 metres? This also applies to any pedestrian waiting to cross the road anyway, but the speed limit could be greater. The only difference is a kerb is in the way, is that considered a safety device to prevent the car running into the children or pedestrian? I don't think a kerb would prevent a car mounting the kerb if the driver was distracted. The reality is traffic passes each other in these close proximities almost all the time on roads, we rely on double white lines to protect us from on coming traffic which is within the distances mentioned, at 60km that is a 120km impact.

Therefore why is 1.2 - 1.5 metres any more dangerous on a cycle path than any other traffic proximity?

The reality is it is quite safe.

And remember the speeds are considerably lower on a bike path.

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby softy » Sun May 29, 2016 11:09 pm

Just checking cycle path widths

Queensland;
varys between 2.5 and 4.0 metres depend on pedestrian/cyclist traffic per peak hour.
file:///C:/Users/Myer/Downloads/RPDMSuppVol3Part6A.pdf

In this document, between 2.0 to 4.0 depending on usage.
https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/media ... 201999.pdf

Austroad, need to pay for, which MRDWA points too.

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby NASHIE » Mon May 30, 2016 12:20 am

No don't need to check anything, as a surveyor i have setout many PSPs so well aware of 'lane' widths. Sorry but kids crossing a road and ped/bike interaction on a PSP have nothing in common IMO.

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby Thoglette » Mon May 30, 2016 9:00 am

NASHIE wrote:Sorry but kids crossing a road and ped/bike interaction on a PSP have nothing in common IMO.

+several

There is a reason that a rule against "riding furiously" has been on the books in most anglophone parts of the world for as long as we have had bicycles.

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby cj7hawk » Mon May 30, 2016 11:42 am

Thoglette wrote:
NASHIE wrote:Sorry but kids crossing a road and ped/bike interaction on a PSP have nothing in common IMO.

+several

There is a reason that a rule against "riding furiously" has been on the books in most anglophone parts of the world for as long as we have had bicycles.


Riding furiously is mostly to do with exceeding the posted speed limit isn't it? I think making close, fast passes on a bicycle is riding recklessly.

Anyway, I completely disagree that the car speed limit and bicycle speed limit aren't comparable.

First, we're not talking "Speed limits around pedestrians" - We're talking blanket speed limits without pedestrians.
Second, Cars being forced to drive at 40kph isn't about reducing the damage to kids crossing the road. It's about ensuring they have adequate time to react in an environment in which all kinds of pedestrians, but mostly kids, are likely to dart out in front of them. Exactly the same circumstances we face. Stopping distances and speed of subsequent impact are two other factors as well.

Never once have I suggested that blasting past people at 40kph is OK. I won't even do that at 30kph unless I have a clear oncoming lane to go into, and plenty of space to take evasive action, and I have the benefit of extra noise, and I ring my bell, and if there's any sign that the pedestrians might do something strange, I hit the brakes. It's no problem for me coming back up to speed.

But I pass about 3 to 4 pedestrians during the 1 hour ride into work before I get to the city. Suggesting I have to slow down over the entire 26km is just ridiculous. Sure, some sections are barely 1m wide, and I encounter pedestrians on those sections too at times, but I slow down to almost a walking pace and try to get their attention before passing, and usually go off-path as well.

If there are to be blanket speed limits on paths, 35 would seem a minimum speed to set for bicycles, and 40 would be acceptable. Paths aren't like roads. There are very few, if any, places I can catch a pedestrian blind - I can usually see them more than 100m off, and there's no where that I can't see them in plenty of time to slow to a safe speed to pass.

If a speed limit is needed at all, then specify it when passing pedestrians. Eg, 20kph speed limit WHEN PASSING PEDESTRIANS. Too fast? OK, 10kph speed limit WHEN PASSING PEDESTRIANS.

There is no need at any other time to ask cyclists to slow down on paths. Except when the path itself is specifically unsuited to riding at speed - and there's nothing to stop local government from signposting sections of path where it is dangerous.

Regards
David

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bychosis
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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby bychosis » Mon May 30, 2016 12:53 pm

cj7hawk wrote:If there are to be blanket speed limits on paths, 35 would seem a minimum speed to set for bicycles, and 40 would be acceptable.


Then it would seem a speed limit is completely useless, because the majority of riders will not manage that speed. Those that do can be considered riding recklessly if they do it near pedestrians etc.

cj7hawk wrote:If a speed limit is needed at all, then specify it when passing pedestrians. Eg, 20kph speed limit WHEN PASSING PEDESTRIANS. Too fast? OK, 10kph speed limit WHEN PASSING PEDESTRIANS.

There is no need at any other time to ask cyclists to slow down on paths. Except when the path itself is specifically unsuited to riding at speed - and there's nothing to stop local government from signposting sections of path where it is dangerous.


This. There is no need to limit riders when they are riding with care and courtesy. There are enough rules that cover that stuff already (despite them already being ignored by those who are being targeted by any proposed limits/laws)

Our local sharepath, where I commute, has a sign that says the limit is 10km/h, but doesn't state anything about it being around pedestrians, or as a guide. I'm sure some of the runners will breach that easily, not to mention near every rider exceeding it quite safely.

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby NASHIE » Mon May 30, 2016 3:50 pm

cj7hawk wrote:
First, we're not talking "Speed limits around pedestrians" - We're talking blanket speed limits without pedestrians.


The news article is about speed limits around peds, so thanks what I'm talking about.

I won't even do that at 30kph unless I have a clear oncoming lane to go into, and plenty of space to take evasive action, and I have the benefit of extra noise, and I ring my bell, and if there's any sign that the pedestrians might do something strange, I hit the brakes. It's no problem for me coming back up to speed.


Same, but A LOT of riders, especially on Saturday and Sunday mornings don't ride with that sort of edicate, hence why the noise for speed limits.

Im not a commuter and only ride on the PSP for the occasional light training session (30kph ave). I can appreciate that communting 9-5 weekdays is probably a different enviroment to the Sat/Sun madness, but if any speed restriction where ever put in place they need to cover all occasions. Im guessing in the commute your mostly riding with the traffic flow and peds are few and far between. But Sat/Sun the PSPs are very busy with riders and peds, tourists, kids etc etc enjoying our wonderfull foreshores and being buzzed by wan-a-bee strava hero's is not a very relaxing environment. Take your family for a morning walk one weekend.

I agree speed limits will be a waste of time, as they will never be policed and as with morons on the roads the same PSP hero's will need a serious incident before they curb there ways.

Also most riders/groups that can maintain 40kph are on the road anyway

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Re: PSP Speed Limit

Postby 방구 똥 » Mon May 30, 2016 4:07 pm

NASHIE wrote:
cj7hawk wrote:Also most riders/groups that can maintain 40kph are on the road anyway

It'll be great if they could turn one lane of the freeway into a cycleway.... lololol

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