Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs...

Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby exadios » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:38 pm

RonK wrote:
exadios wrote:But beyond that I assume that as a proponent of the 1 or 1.5 meter rule you would wish to persuade people to support you. I'm am pointing out that, in order to pursuade me, the quality of your arguments will need to improve dramatically.

Why would I need to persuade you? The thousands who have signed the various petitions on the issue show that there is strong support for mandatory passing distance regulations. It is of no consequence that you choose otherwise.

On the other hand, show us the support for your alternative proposal. Where are the petitions, the public discussions, the parliamentary inquiries.


So what is the point of your argument? Are you just wasring time?

As far as I know there is no support for my proposals. And, if there where, I would not necessarily know about it.
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by BNA » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:41 pm

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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby exadios » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:41 pm

CycleSnail wrote:Here an example of a police chief (no, he is not Australian) promoting the three foot legislated passing distance:

( I guess you are all familiar with this Youtube clip )


"“Sharing the roadways could help you avoid a citation but, more importantly, it could save a life. Please, drive safely,” Art Acevedo, Chief of the Austin Police Department"


I like the message. But there is no evidence that the TX law is enforcable.
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:23 am

Checking on this tonight by calling them myself. Yup. I'll be asking how many times these fines have been taken to court and what results netted by someone with the Austin PD.
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby Donat » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:15 am

exadios wrote:Speculated? Not so. The section "Police and road safety authority opposition" is very clear and direct. It says that police depts, prosecution offices, and road safety authorities all oppose the proposed legislation and it gives reasons why.


I guess you are refering to this sentences from Bicycle WA (BWA):

""For the police, the notion of a measured distance would make evidence gathering so difficult that they believe it would be rare for cases to meet the evidence hurdle to get before a court.
And for prosecution authorities, they are very concerned that such laws provide drivers with the opportunity to construct a strong defence, making successful prosecutions difficult."

Without some attribution or reference this statement is pure speculation ... just words ...
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby exadios » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:04 am

Donat wrote:
exadios wrote:Speculated? Not so. The section "Police and road safety authority opposition" is very clear and direct. It says that police depts, prosecution offices, and road safety authorities all oppose the proposed legislation and it gives reasons why.


I guess you are refering to this sentences from Bicycle WA (BWA):

""For the police, the notion of a measured distance would make evidence gathering so difficult that they believe it would be rare for cases to meet the evidence hurdle to get before a court.
And for prosecution authorities, they are very concerned that such laws provide drivers with the opportunity to construct a strong defence, making successful prosecutions difficult."

Without some attribution or reference this statement is pure speculation ... just words ...


Not true. If you read the section again the author has made it clear that both the police and prosecutors have stated these opinions on the proposal. So there are two possibilities: Either the author is reporting truthfully, or; The author is lying or otherwise misrepresenting the facts. So which is it?
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:01 pm

And you're aspousing the opinions of others as fact. The fact is that other jurisdictions have minimum safe passing distance rules and they make them work effectively enough. The fact is that speculation as to whether a similar rule would not work in Qld or anywhere else in Australia is just that.
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby schroeds » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:22 pm

Without wishing to indulge in an ad hominem attack on exadios, although its tempting, what's striking about this thread is how broad community support can be undermined if not derailed by a very vocal and dogged minority opposition.

It's all too easy for critics of community-driven efforts and initiatives to dismiss them as lacking proper community support in the face of such noise. I'm not saying there should not be debate (which seems to be more your motivation than the safety of cyclists) but I am saying there comes a time when you need to take on the views of others into consideration.

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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby exadios » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:54 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:And you're aspousing the opinions of others as fact. The fact is that other jurisdictions have minimum safe passing distance rules and they make them work effectively enough. The fact is that speculation as to whether a similar rule would not work in Qld or anywhere else in Australia is just that.


I am taking the opinions of experts as expert opinion.

I have seen no evidence that the other juristictions have made it work.
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:31 pm

exadios wrote:
The 2nd Womble wrote:And you're aspousing the opinions of others as fact. The fact is that other jurisdictions have minimum safe passing distance rules and they make them work effectively enough. The fact is that speculation as to whether a similar rule would not work in Qld or anywhere else in Australia is just that.


I am taking the opinions of experts as expert opinion.

I have seen no evidence that the other juristictions have made it work.

Yes well, I must say that after listening to the "experts" from CARRS-Q at the Inquiry hearing on Wednesday and from TMR at the initial briefing a few weeks ago Im left wondering if there's any such thing.
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby CycleSnail » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:32 pm

schroeds wrote:Without wishing to indulge in an ad hominem attack on exadios, although its tempting, what's striking about this thread is how broad community support can be undermined if not derailed by a very vocal and dogged minority opposition.

It's all too easy for critics of community-driven efforts and initiatives to dismiss them as lacking proper community support in the face of such noise. I'm not saying there should not be debate (which seems to be more your motivation than the safety of cyclists) but I am saying there comes a time when you need to take on the views of others into consideration.

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I agree.

Getting any form of legislation that might improve the safety of people on bicycles in motorised traffic is difficult, perhaps even unlikely, if cyclists cannot find common ground.

A few years back, when we started looking at safe legalised passing distance, talking to ministers and the road safety council etc, I thought the impediments would come from motoring organisations and timid politicians.

Now I am afraid that it is the pissing contest between (some) cyclists (and their representative organisations) that will be the most likely cause of failure (in this round, leading up to the Australian Road Rules Review meeting)
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby Aushiker » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:45 pm

Maybe we need this education program :)



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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby CycleSnail » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:14 pm

Aushiker wrote:Maybe we need this education program :)



Andrew



Perfect ....and no allusion to debating co-cyclists
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby schroeds » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:09 pm

Aushiker wrote:Maybe we need this education program :)



Andrew


Love it...and happy to winny at the lights:grin:

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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby Rhubarb » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:32 am

Pretty sad though that "See cyclist - think fellow human being" doesn't cut it.
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby InTheWoods » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:53 pm

Rhubarb wrote:Pretty sad though that "See cyclist - think fellow human being" doesn't cut it.


QFT.

I was talking to a weekend rider yesterday about our dehumanisation. She wants to wear a jersey that says "Mother of 4" on the back. And have others available in the various combinations required. Anybody seen anything like this?

A while back her husband had a motorcycle rider try to push him off his bicycle heading up towards dayborough :shock:
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby CycleSnail » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:53 pm

Rhubarb wrote:Pretty sad though that "See cyclist - think fellow human being" doesn't cut it.


There is a report on the BTA website that looks at some of the "sharing" campaigns out there. In the appendix (pages 19 - 22) there are brief descriptions of over 20 campaigns, for instance of a Canadian campaign that describes cyclists as family members (Devoted mother of three, responsible big brother and only son, loving father and husband, adored dad and driver). “It moves us all, let’s all share the road”.

Anybody interested can swing past the office to view the material described in the report.

It would not be difficult to get screening rights for most of these campaigns, the big cost is in the airtime...
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby the-waves » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:04 pm

This sort of ad run in conjunction with minimum safe passing legislation would likely be very effective.
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby schroeds » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:59 am

Totally agree. Appeal to reason by stating the rules clearly then use emotion to persuade compliance. Then the challenge of succesful prosecution becomes secondary.

But where will the campaign money come from? Cyclists theselves....or should the govt pay?

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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby CycleSnail » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:48 am

CycleSnail wrote:
Rhubarb wrote:Pretty sad though that "See cyclist - think fellow human being" doesn't cut it.


There is a report on the BTA website that looks at some of the "sharing" campaigns out there. In the appendix (pages 19 - 22) there are brief descriptions of over 20 campaigns, for instance of a Canadian campaign that describes cyclists as family members (Devoted mother of three, responsible big brother and only son, loving father and husband, adored dad and driver). “It moves us all, let’s all share the road”.

Anybody interested can swing past the office to view the material described in the report.

It would not be difficult to get screening rights for most of these campaigns, the big cost is in the airtime...


For the people who follow the BTA on Facebook, the clip described above is up. in Canada, the campaign was financed in partnership with the Ontario Ministry of Transportation and the Canadian Automobile Association.
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby InTheWoods » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:17 pm

I think it might have just happened in SA?

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/sa/b ... _Print_BK6

Edit: Still trying to figure out if this law really has been voted through or not. It says it is enacted?
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby simonn » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:24 pm

InTheWoods wrote:I think it has just happened in SA:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/sa/b ... _Print_BK6


Awesome.

For the people saying that specifying a distance makes it difficult for the police to measure etc etc, at least it is better than what we have now which can be summarized as "if you don't crash it's ok".
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby RonK » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:31 pm

InTheWoods wrote:I think it might have just happened in SA?

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/sa/b ... _Print_BK6

Edit: Still trying to figure out if this law really has been voted through or not. It says it is enacted?

Enacted means it is passed into law. This Act will come into operation 2 months after the day on which it is assented to by the Governor. Assent is just a formality.

Good for SA - leading the way yet again.
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby InTheWoods » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:33 pm

I'm not sure - the bill was introduced and read in July and even then used the word "enacts" so I'm beginning to think it hasn't necessarily happened? Parliament would have to vote on the act, so until it has done so even though the document "enacts" something, it doesn't necessarily mean anything.
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby biker jk » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:37 pm

InTheWoods wrote:I think it might have just happened in SA?

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/sa/b ... _Print_BK6

Edit: Still trying to figure out if this law really has been voted through or not. It says it is enacted?


It must have been passed by the legislature since it's an act not just a bill. Simply needs assent by the Governor and it comes into effect two months later. Good news.
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Re: Legalised safe passing distance opposed by cyling orgs..

Postby Aushiker » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:38 pm

InTheWoods wrote:I think it might have just happened in SA?

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/sa/b ... _Print_BK6

Edit: Still trying to figure out if this law really has been voted through or not. It says it is enacted?


What you have linked to is a bill to amend the law. It needs to be debated in Parliament, voted on and accepted. Then it has to go to the State Governor for promulgation. Looking at the South Australian Legislation website it is a bill of the 2nd Session of the 52nd Parliament and it was put up by the Hon Mark Parnell MLC, a Member of the Legislative Council. If the SA parliament is an upper and lower house of Parliament then it is my understanding this Bill even if passed by the Upper House does not become law. It needs to put to the lower house where law is actually made. A start maybe which is a good thing but not much more.

I haven't checked the Hansard to see if has even been debated. That would be the next step or contact Hon Mark Parnell MLC for an update. Mark Parnell is a Green's member of the Upper House. Well done to Mark but for doing this. I believe that Lynn McLaren an MLC here in WA is planning a similar move.

The Western Australian Parliamentary Counsel’s Office has published a guide to reading legislation, titled, How to read legislation, a beginner’s guide. Well worth a read if you are not familiar with legislation.

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