Paid parking at train stations

Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:44 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote:It is a pity that it will, however, reduce the financial benefit of taking public transport over taking a car by $2 a day. :cry:

vs $20 per day for parking in the city? I'll take the $2 thank you!
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:11 am

softy wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:It is a pity that it will, however, reduce the financial benefit of taking public transport over taking a car by $2 a day. :cry:

vs $20 per day for parking in the city? I'll take the $2 thank you!


Remember not everyone works in the city, public transport should be a low cost service that can be used by all to commute to busy working areas. Not just the city.
I see this as another re-enforcing of motor vehicles for transport and commuting.

I don't see it that way at all. $2 a day doesn't seem like enough to influence commuter behaviour. I guess train use stats will prove one of us wrong.
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby worzel » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:14 pm

$2 doesn't sound much but when you think of it as $500 a year it will be to a lot of people. We will see in a couple of weeks but I suspect nearby residential streets and shopping centres etc will be full of commuters' cars. On the plus side - on days I take the train rather than cycle I expect I will still be able to get a parking space well after 7am for the first time in years.

They really don't seem to have thought this through properly:
-They just backtracked on charging the disable for use of ACROD spaces
-I heard yesterday that night shift workers will get penalised for not paying for the time after midnight
-I have still to see a decent solution to what people who use multiple vehicles have to do (apart from re-registering on a daily basis)
-There is no additional bike parking at my station
-I have only seen one parking station in the entire station car park I use
-I haven't seen any yellow lines painted on local streets etc to deter parking
-The last bus past my house is about 6.30pm which I cannot always finish work in time to catch

Surely it would have been simpler just to charge train fares that better reflect the price of providing the service and then use it to improve the capacity and reliability of the service?
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:25 pm

worzel wrote:Surely it would have been simpler just to charge train fares that better reflect the price of providing the service and then use it to improve the capacity and reliability of the service?

No thanks. I don't park at the train station so why should I pay extra to cover those that do?
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:31 pm

worzel wrote:$2 doesn't sound much but when you think of it as $500 a year it will be to a lot of people.

But those same people don't mind spending $4.50 on a coffee every day. It's all relative.
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby Baalzamon » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:54 pm

worzel wrote:$2 doesn't sound much but when you think of it as $500 a year it will be to a lot of people. We will see in a couple of weeks but I suspect nearby residential streets and shopping centres etc will be full of commuters' cars. On the plus side - on days I take the train rather than cycle I expect I will still be able to get a parking space well after 7am for the first time in years.



They will try that once at Cockburn Gateways shopping centre and come back to find a fine. Time limit of 5hrs parking there. And residents will then complain and rangers will be issuing parking infrigements on nearby residential streets
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:25 pm

Baalzamon wrote:They will try that once at Cockburn Gateways shopping centre and come back to find a fine. Time limit of 5hrs parking there. And residents will then complain and rangers will be issuing parking infrigements on nearby residential streets

They will only be able to issue parking infrigements if people park unlawfully. At Oats Street, people park all over the side streets already. There are no infrigements if they are parked legally. I have only seen infrigements where people ignored the parking signs... i.e. parked where the sign says: "No Parking" etc.
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:31 pm

worzel wrote:Surely it would have been simpler just to charge train fares that better reflect the price of providing the service and then use it to improve the capacity and reliability of the service?

How much more are you willing to pay for your daily commute? Three times what you pay now? Four times?

I am not convinced that it is as simple as you suggest. I imagine that the cost of the existing parkign is nowhere near paid for by your tickets. And certainly not if we have to start constructing multi-story structures.

Simpler would have been, in the first place, to just keep adding lanes to the freeways and major arterial roads. And never bothering with that complicated rail network with electrification, new lines, staff to manage and rolling stock to buy and maintain.

Simple is not often best. It'd be great if the government instead complicated the hell out of it and built a better bus feeder service. The never ending cycle of adding parking bays as we grow not good policy even if it is, as you suggest simple.

Of course, the decision to charge is not because it is good public policy. It is more that the government wasted the biggest economic boom any state in this country has ever seen, lost our triple-A rating and now is trying to find whatever it can from wherever it can. (Other than the footy stadium of course.)

(Just the simple act of electrifying the network and extending the service to the norther suburbs in 1992 increased the rail patronage from 7Million per year to 30Million per year over five years. That's a huge benefit to a city that is otherwise gonna choke. Maybe not simple, but highly effective.)
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby softy » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:16 pm

Yes only two dollars...

If you don't pay parking at your destination two dollars adds up.
Depending on how many zones you go through just say one way is $3.50
Okay ×2 for one day = 7.00 now add 2.00. This is over a twenty precent increase to your travel and for 9.00 a day this could realisticly cover your fuel.
Plus driving is quicker and you can sleep in a bit more, which is important to some, especially when it is not cheap anymore.

Therefore the incentive to travel by PTA is deminishing. Public transport has many benefits to infrastructure. Discouraging using public transport is not good government policy in my view.
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:57 pm

softy wrote:Yes only two dollars...

If you don't pay parking at your destination two dollars adds up.
Depending on how many zones you go through just say one way is $3.50
Okay ×2 for one day = 7.00 now add 2.00. This is over a twenty precent increase to your travel and for 9.00 a day this could realisticly cover your fuel.
Plus driving is quicker and you can sleep in a bit more, which is important to some, especially when it is not cheap anymore.

Therefore the incentive to travel by PTA is deminishing. Public transport has many benefits to infrastructure. Discouraging using public transport is not good government policy in my view.

This only ever works if you have cheap or free parking at the other end. Parking is possibly the biggest subsidy provided to the private motor vehicle.
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby citywomble » Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:02 am

What many fail to appreciate is the enormous extent to which the car is subsidised.

Why do people think that they have the right to a free space to get rid of the car at their destinations. The cost of 20 sq-m of space where two tonnes of metal can be stored is more than $30,000 in a metro location. In that context $2 per day is cheap.

Not only that, if rego or fuel excise actually paid for the roads, then rego would need to increase by more than $2,000 pa or fuel cost to about $4 per litre. Can you imagine the outcry if that occurred.

The day of the subsidised car, particularly free parking, is coming to an end. Charging for the train station car park is unlikely to increase traffic to CBDs. Eventually the cost of parking will have to increase to ensure that when you arrive with two tonnes of metal you will be able to store it for the day. Time is money and people will pay to save time.

The displaced cars will stay at home and those that do have a quick bus route to the station will use the bus. Others will be close enough to walk and some will chose to cycle. Each car space can store about 10 bikes.

Surprise, as more people catch the bus then more services can be provided and more people can then use the buses - and so it goes on. Train stations become much more efficient, and more can be carried by more trains, if cost incentivises more alternative modes of arrival at the station.

Even subsidies for public transport are actually there to subsidise the car. If public transport subsidies were removed then the cost would induce more people to drive, traffic congestion goes through the roof and everywhere becomes a giant car park. No green spaces, no trees, just miles and miles of asphalt and concrete. So, PT is subsidised to benefit the car.
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby softy » Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:27 am

Urrrrrrrr no!
You can't assume everyone using public transport is going to the CBD. That is like assuming everyone that commutes on a bike is going to the CBD! And build only infrustructure to support that, which is kind of what the government has in its plan.

Shires require businesses to provide parking for employees and potential visitors, otherwise they will not get building approval. So your argument is floored.

I commute from morley to jandakot, I drive, cycle and use PTA. For all my collegues to use PTA it is now a two dollar increase and my argument put forward above applies.
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby citywomble » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:20 pm

Urrrrrrr no,

I didn't
assume everyone using public transport is going to the CBD
thats your assumption from what I said.

What I said was
Charging for the train station car park is unlikely to increase traffic to CBDs.
which Is quite different.

Parking controls at the CBD end of the journey will ensure (and already are for many) that driving does not displace public transport. Reducing CBD parking demand at train stations, concurrent with increased PT, reduces traffic and improves PT for all destinations. What goes in must come out so there are more trains and buses, at a higher frequency and to/from more places.

This increase in the general PT, plus the road space freed up by less cars (currently being consumed by more people through population rise) then improves options for commuters at other centres and that includes car drivers to outer hubs and work destinations. So it's all about controlling traffic by managing demand and price mechanisms, especially for the most heavily subsidised element that is parking, and in particular to the CBD where there is the greatest focus.

Do that and there is then more left for those outer areas, and a better PT system to boot, which will continue to be dependant on cars.

Shires require businesses to provide parking for employees and potential visitors, otherwise they will not get building approval.

Urrrrr no. Even this is only partially true and reflects 20th century 'Business as Usual' thinking. In alternative transport hubs and within the CBD, the parking requirements are changing from a higher MINIMUM to a much lower MAXIMUM. In order to drive multimodal and alternative PT use and hence provision, parking requirements are being lowered, or even removed for some developments, to ration supply (of spaces). Welcome to the 21st century.

Morley to Jandakot, you need the Reid/Tonkin Highway upgrade to freeway, complete with PSP and railway, that is already being mooted and may become an outcome from the wider strategy that paid parking at stations is but a tiny, but essential, part of the bigger picture.

However, Car use is always going to be important in Perth, as WA is so large and sparsely populated. It's just that car use must become much less important for commuting, so that road space is retained for those that will remain dependant, and cars will become more used for off peak travel, recreation and to outer metro areas and beyond.
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby citywomble » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:31 pm

This:

Morley to Jandakot, you need the Reid/Tonkin Highway upgrade to freeway, complete with PSP and railway, that is already being mooted and may become an outcome from the wider strategy that paid parking at stations is but a tiny, but essential, part of the bigger picture.


https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/BuildingRoads/Projects/UrbanProjects/Pages/RHD.aspx#.U6ThidoaySM
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby softy » Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:35 pm

citywomble wrote:This:

Morley to Jandakot, you need the Reid/Tonkin Highway upgrade to freeway, complete with PSP and railway, that is already being mooted and may become an outcome from the wider strategy that paid parking at stations is but a tiny, but essential, part of the bigger picture.


https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/BuildingRoads/Projects/UrbanProjects/Pages/RHD.aspx#.U6ThidoaySM


I'm not getting your point, so they are upgrading the tonkin hwy/horrie millar drive area. What has this got to do with encouraging people to leave they cars at a dedicated parking area or at home and use public transport to reduce motor vehicle traffic.

As far as I see this upgrade is to allow more motor vehicles to use the roads.

Although they are going to build a rail to the airport (which has been delayed) why should people choose to use it?

We have a culture of car use, how do we encourage people to get out of their cars and use other forms of transport which are more managable to the infrastructure and be more enviromentally friendly?
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby citywomble » Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:56 pm

We have a culture of car use, how do we encourage people to get out of their cars and use other forms of transport which are more managable to the infrastructure and be more enviromentally friendly?


It seems from your comment s that we are essentially in agreement on the desired outcomes. To answer your question-

By reducing the environmental damage caused by car parking and using price mechanisms to limit supply to what is essential and not just lazy or convenient. Peak Oil, or Peak Carbon which may overtake it in political (and even survival) importance, will also see fuel cost rise. Imagine how transformational $8/litre could be. Surprisingly the young may prove the solution. There are many who already chose PT over the car because they can stay connected and working through Thierry IPads and mobiles. To them a car is an inconvenience rather that an armchair to drive while listening to radio jocks.

so they are upgrading the tonkin hwy/horrie millar drive area


Read the whole MRWA advice on that link. This is potentially the first stage of the new freeway and with that there are already plans to then add a rail line to the corridor which your local member supports.
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby cray- » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:49 am

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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby softy » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:47 am

I was walking thru the perth train station on Thursday and they had people promoting this paid parking.

It really makes my blood boil! Counter productive, it will only shift the parking problem somewhere else or make it someone elses problem (like the shires).

If for example you have 150 cars trying to park in 100 bays, charging $2.00 will not make more parking. It just encourages people to do alternatives.

Also what they have been very quite about, is the fares are also being increased on the 1st of July. So double increase.

Another discouragement to use PTA.
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby softy » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:10 am

cray- wrote:An interesting and relevent article I just read:

What’s Up With That: Building Bigger Roads Actually Makes Traffic Worse

Bit off topic but this is also how they envisage to manage energy into the future. With the demand of energy not only increasing, but the gradient is continually getting steeper.
They want to level the usage over time to make energy more efficient. In the US this is called smart grid. The same logic is being looked out on roads and makes sense.
Pay more when demand is high to encourage a shift in when it is used. Ulitise the resources evenly around the clock.

Human beings will not change their culture unless an incentive is provided and the hip pocket is a good driver.

This could also be applied to public transport, parking, trains, buses and ferries on a sliding scale related to the demand. When trains, buses, etc are empty it is cheaper and when busier more expensive.
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby rolandp » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:45 am

Paid Parking Girls were at Glendalough train station on Friday morning.
Image

Glad to see I rode through that section in Gribble Rd, Gwelup which had no warning signs that is slippery as, but, the car parkers have personal service of been told that they will have to pay for parking next week.

Let's hope this extra revenue goes to supporting active transport.

CycleWest also had an article this week:
Buddy up: save your public transport colleagues paid parking fees
encouraging us to 'buddy up' to the train station:
Now is a great time to introduce fellow colleagues to using pedal power to get to the train station as bike parking remains free of charge.

“Trips to train stations are often less than four kilometres in distance. This is just a fifteen minute slow bike ride, half of the minimum daily recommended level of exercise,” said Jillian Woolmer Research and Policy Officer at the Department of Transport and Accredited AustCycle Coach.

A return trip from the train station home would save commuters money and tick the daily required exercise box.

“Sometimes all it takes for someone to take up bike riding is to have a knowledgeable buddy taking them along and showing them the route. Not knowing the safest and easiest way to ride or how to use the bike cage is a barrier for many,” said Ms Woolmer.
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby softy » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:57 am

rolandp wrote:
CycleWest also had an article this week:
Buddy up: save your public transport colleagues paid parking fees
encouraging us to 'buddy up' to the train station:
Now is a great time to introduce fellow colleagues to using pedal power to get to the train station as bike parking remains free of charge.

“Trips to train stations are often less than four kilometres in distance. This is just a fifteen minute slow bike ride, half of the minimum daily recommended level of exercise,” said Jillian Woolmer Research and Policy Officer at the Department of Transport and Accredited AustCycle Coach.

A return trip from the train station home would save commuters money and tick the daily required exercise box.

“Sometimes all it takes for someone to take up bike riding is to have a knowledgeable buddy taking them along and showing them the route. Not knowing the safest and easiest way to ride or how to use the bike cage is a barrier for many,” said Ms Woolmer.


This really is a pipe dream!
People will not buddy up, unless they are neighbours going the same way and starting and finishing at the same time, which is rare.

Okay they say cycle, well most people don't want to be cold, hot or wear a helmet to mess their hair when wearing work attire. So no they probably will not want to cycle most times of the year. The car is just more comfortable.

Unfortunately 99.9% will still drive and try and park somewhere?
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby roller » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:08 pm

I am thinking of capitalising on this paid parking palava and using it as an excuse to get a new "can lock up at train station" bike for those days where I want to catch the train.

I catch the train on average once or twice a week, so that's say $4, plus train fare $4 = $8 a week.

$8 a week over a year = $400!! Maybe even more if I were to include wear and tear on vehicle, petrol etc.

"but wifey, i would actually be SAVING money by buying this new bike"

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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby citywomble » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:53 pm

Unfortunately 99.9% will still drive and try and park somewhere?


That may be true, but they are already doing this. The key is to manage when and where they do this and to have some control over future demand, which is precisely why pricing is needed and works.

I live at the edge of the walk distance to Whitfords train station. Parking on local streets extended out close to my house. So a big new car park was built at the expense of a wooded buffer area.

Great, no on street parking for two weeks. After one month it was all back where it was before and the car park had done nothing to stop parking on local streets. It had, however, removed a large wooded area and exposed residents to the noise of the freeway and railway. So MRWA then spent an enormous sum of money on a tall concrete acoustic wall, now residents look at at a concrete wall where they used to see woodland.

What actually happened. More parking attracted more drivers. This reduced bus patronage which, when the first car park expansion took place, caused a reduction in bus services - which then causes more drivers to use cars.

Net result, much money spent on car park and acoustic wall and local council still had to put parking restrictions on local streets. Why, because more parking spaces actually attracts more drivers. If 10% of those drivers will look at the surroundings and consider antisocial parking then that proportion increases too. Put in deterrents through pricing and, over a few weeks, it settles down and a few will chose PT or cycling as an alternative - the rest will actually start contributing towards the space they use to dispose of two tonnes of metal for a day (either in the parking spaces or pay a premium through parking infringements). Providing price is at the right level then spaces are available to avoid higher penalties.

This can be reversed, take parking away and increase bus services and, ultimately, that could be done given that the land values at train stations are so high. Better, in the medium term is to price parking and, if done properly, the pricing is set so that a few spaces are always available. This is attractive to many drivers as time spent trying to park a car is time wasted. This mechanism is not only being applied to train stations but also Perth CBD and many other high parking demand areas and eventually will extend to virtually every commute destination.

Let's put it another way. If you invest in property to rent you expect a suitable return. Say you rent out a $400K unit. You would want about 5% return which is about $20K a year or $400 per week. Seem right to you?

Supposing the car park spaces at train stations could be bought as 'investment property'. All up with access and land value they would sell for about $40K. Annual return at 5% about $2K or about $40 per week. The obvious conclusion is that $2 a day is far too cheap and not worth investing in. Realistic price, based on rental value is about $8 a day. Unless this happens why should any further investment be made in car parks? Would you buy one, if not why do you think it should be given to you free?
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby rolandp » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:04 pm

citywomble wrote:Great, no on street parking for two weeks. After one month it was all back where it was before and the car park had done nothing to stop parking on local streets. It had, however, removed a large wooded area and exposed residents to the noise of the freeway and railway. So MRWA then spent an enormous sum of money on a tall concrete acoustic wall, now residents look at at a concrete wall where they used to see woodland.

And when this was being built, I asked if a cycle lane could be build along side it, instead of having to travel back onto local roads at this location - the answer was no.

Isn't it interesting that (link provided earlier by cray)
What’s Up With That: Building Bigger Roads Actually Makes Traffic Worse
indicates the more roads you build, the more cars that use it. And yet, when we ask for more cycle lanes, the answer is no. What would happen, based on the reason behind the report, you build the good cycle ways, and more people use them?
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Re: Paid parking at train stations

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:32 pm

roller wrote:I am thinking of capitalising on this paid parking palava and using it as an excuse to get a new "can lock up at train station" bike for those days where I want to catch the train.

I catch the train on average once or twice a week, so that's say $4, plus train fare $4 = $8 a week.

$8 a week over a year = $400!! Maybe even more if I were to include wear and tear on vehicle, petrol etc.

"but wifey, i would actually be SAVING money by buying this new bike"

n+1, n+1

Taking the part of wifey:

"OK, yep. That sound like an economically rationalist view of the world. You post grad studies are showing some value.

"And I agree wholeheartedly that you should also account for wear and tear. It is only fair and economically valid.

"But consistent with that approach, I get to also subtract the cost of any and many accessories you buy over the year, the cost of new flash sunnies, team jerseys, shoes, air-zounds, ayups, the replacement of perfectly good wheels with other perfectly good wheels, a new tool kit, CO2 cartridges or anything else.

"So, let me see... what will you spend last year on this stuff in the forthcoming year? I think well in excess of $400.

"And on the weekend you can start selling on ebay sufficient to cover the excess of cost of your bikes over the last X years against what it would have cost just to take the train.

"So, with an economic rationalist line of thinking, and until you have recouped all those past expenses, methinks that you get to WALK to the station.


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