Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Marmoset
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Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Marmoset » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:23 am

Just had a moment this afternoon where I was battling into ahead wind down the Kwinana PSP and got passed as if standing still by a guy on a home brew electric bike. I was doing just over 30kmh and was just reaching for a drink when he just appeared out of nowhere. No bell, no sounds, just about enough passing space - I nearly jumped out of my shorts!

I'm just wondering if he's aware of how wrong it will go if he's doing that speed(I reckoned close to 60kmh, it was staggeringly fast for an e bike) and clips someone and it does raise the question of who's out there checking for these things

Last week it was a guy with a 2 stroke motor bolted onto an old mob. It's bad enough when 2 people have a crash when pedalling under their own power.

Not wanting to sound like an old goat or anything but I wouldn't want to be riding with my kids when things like this are around.

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Thoglette
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Thoglette » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:08 am

Marmoset wrote:Just had a moment this afternoon where I was battling into ahead wind down the Kwinana PSP and got passed as if standing still by a guy on a home brew electric bike.


I had the opposite experience yesterday - been getting a tow up hill behind a PAC and then coming downhill his speed limiter obviously cut in - and people started rolling past.
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby lobstermash » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:22 am

There was a thread on this fairly recently, likely about the same perpetrator. I would recommend that if you notice a pattern in when these bikes are going through an area, report it to police. Motorbikes on shared pathways (or bikeways) are an incident waiting to happen.
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446006
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby 446006 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:35 pm

I enjoy the tow into the head wind and I usually cant wait for one to past me. Dont mind the electric ones but the petrol ones I tend to dislike, makes sitting behind taking in fumes and noise a little less pleasant riding thats for sure.

Clintoo
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Clintoo » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:02 pm

blue road bike with battery in a red pannier?

I havent seen him for a while. But I would say he is up in the high 50s.

Marmoset
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Marmoset » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:22 pm

Yes Clintoo, I think so - was definitley a blue bike, can't rememebr the pannier - perhaps it was just too blurry to see!

cj7hawk
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby cj7hawk » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:25 pm

The fastest a legally compliant PAPC can go ( petrol or electric ) with a small tailwind is about 30 kph on the flat, and anytime they are doing significantly faster than 25 without a reason ( downhill, strong tailwind, etc ) they are NOT a bicycle, and if you can get details, please report them.

As a part of my research in the PAPCs, I found the main problem was electric, not petrol, as Electrics of around 8kW can do up to about 120kph and even a basic 1kW model (about $300 for a kit) will do mid 50's... way too fast for paths - This is almost certainly the result of poorly planned and executed anti-petrol legislation in Sydney and Queensland - The actual tests found that even the massively overpowered petrol bikes couldn't go that fast due to the limitations of gearing and the effect is has on torque in petrol based systems, so the petrol PAPCs, and the illegal ones that were overpowered, were limited by this "feature" -

However, without cheap petrol models to compete, Electrics moved into these two markets and Electrics have no such limitations as they provide torque fairly independently of RPM and as a result, can achieve pretty high speeds with enough power. As a result, they can do crazy dangerous speeds. :( There is no such thing as an electric motor that can only do 200 or 250w either - All electrics can be easily powered up to much higher speeds.

The problem is that many people in power hate to see petrol on bicycles due to the number of campaign against them and are happy to see petrol banned even if they know they are making false arguments against it - however I found no one willing to look at electrics with the same eye and as a result, the high-powered electrics are even cheaper than petrol conversions and can easily hit 50 kph. They are being pushed in both NSW and Queensland as a result of the ban on petrol... So I guess they are kind of the cane toads end-result... How ironic it all started in Queensland - they still haven't learned from their mistakes.

I think it's important to support legitimate powered bicycles of all types - Petrol, Electric, Extended and Hybrid, as they are important to the future bicycling community, however politicians and police are not likely to introduce bans or police electrics for a number of political reasons. So unless the cycling community takes action to do something I can't see this situation improving. The end-result at this point in time isn't that electrics will be banned- it's more likely that speed limits of 25 kph will be imposed on PSPs.

By all means, go after those deliberately breaking the law, but please don't hate on legitimate petrol and electric owners who do comply with the very restrictive laws on legitimate powered cycles. And please, if you do attack power cycles, remember to voice support for those legitimately following the rules - Both petrol and electric.

And sorry about the smell of 2-stroke petrol - they aren't really causing you any more damage or danger than the non-smelly ones and cars and bikes, but the 2-stroke oil is more easily detected by our noses - while petrol-only-related exhaust isn't as easy to smell at all.

Regards
David

p.s. Just to add to that, 1000w kit off Ebay... $219 - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Electric-Bicycle-E-Bike-Conversion-Kit-Hub-Motor-26-48V-1000W-/111617700803?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item19fceef3c3
Clearly states that it will do 45kph "easily" - Nowhere does it say that it's illegal to ride on paths and roads everywhere in Australia. :(

These have exploded in numbers since the petrols were banned in NSW and Qld.

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biker jk
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby biker jk » Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:10 pm

Perhaps the solution is to ban non-human powered bicycles from paths? Yes, a little extreme but petrol powered bicycles are really motorcycles and should be on the road.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby cj7hawk » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:38 pm

biker jk wrote:Perhaps the solution is to ban non-human powered bicycles from paths? Yes, a little extreme but petrol powered bicycles are really motorcycles and should be on the road.


Any realistic argument you can make for this cause equally applies to human powered bicycles, which are far more powerful than petrol or electric bicycles under almost all circumstances that matter... A better argument might be to argue for yearly confirmation of power output, or certification by an Australian bicycle shop of compliance or similar - but even this carries risk for the bicycling community.

Keep in mind, that the justifications used by the NSW government banning petrol were that all bicycles travelling faster then 19kph are dangerous" and that no bicycles have sufficient brakes or engineering to stop at speeds greater than this. Additionally, any bicycle travelling faster than 19 kph is a danger to pedestrians and would cause serious or lethal injuries if they collided with a child or an elderly person. They also demonstrated that only bicycle shops can maintain a safe bicycle and that home mechanics do not have the necessary skills to do so. In the end, the motor itself added no additional danger to the bicycle so they banned petrol powered cycles on the basis that all bicycles are dangerous at speeds over 19 kph.

These are all "facts" confirmed by the NSW department of transport and could be used against a cyclist in a court of law in the event of an injury or accident and would be difficult for an individual to defend against... Sadly the entire report was little more than a hatchet job to ban petrol bicycles, but the dangers it presents affect all cyclists. Nothing presented against petrol was valid in the end, so they used the dangers of bicycles travelling over 19 kph as a justification to ban the petrol motors.

However the threat of overpowered petrol and especially electric powered bicycles is significant and will have greater ramifications for cyclists. Hating them won't help because many of the idiots riding them either don't know or do know and don't care. I know of one person who got pulled over doing 120 past a police car up the freeway a few weeks after losing his license for DD, and assume he had an 8kW kit.

The OP is correct - overpowered non-compliant powered cycles of all kinds are a threat to all cyclists. It's more likely they will ban any fast travel on paths than ban motors - as I mentioned, there are political reasons they can't ban electric motors, especially on footpaths and enforcing compliance is difficult.

At some point the cycling community will need to solve this problem before the government steps in and takes action against all cyclists. While it's true that a 25 kph speed limit would make paths safe, it would make cycling more dangerous as many cyclists would be forced back onto the road and that's a step backwards.

Regards
David

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bychosis
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby bychosis » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:32 pm

cj7hawk wrote:While it's true that a 25 kph speed limit would make paths safe, it would make cycling more dangerous as many cyclists would be forced back onto the road and that's a step backwards.


It comes down to courtesy. I can safely travel on the local sharepath at 45kph, but only when there is no one around. Passing pedestrians at over 25 is too quick, but the suggested limit of 10kph on the path is a joke.

Unfortunately there are too many people out there that get carried away with their toys/speed and don't recognise that other users will find it dangerous.
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby human909 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:50 am

cj7hawk wrote:And sorry about the smell of 2-stroke petrol - they aren't really causing you any more damage or danger than the non-smelly ones and cars and bikes, but the 2-stroke oil is more easily detected by our noses - while petrol-only-related exhaust isn't as easy to smell at all.

That is completely false.


cj7hawk wrote:Any realistic argument you can make for this cause equally applies to human powered bicycles, which are far more powerful than petrol or electric bicycles under almost all circumstances that matter... A better argument might be to argue for yearly confirmation of power output, or certification by an Australian bicycle shop of compliance or similar - but even this carries risk for the bicycling community.

Keep in mind, that the justifications used by the NSW government banning petrol were that all bicycles travelling faster then 19kph are dangerous" and that no bicycles have sufficient brakes or engineering to stop at speeds greater than this. Additionally, any bicycle travelling faster than 19 kph is a danger to pedestrians and would cause serious or lethal injuries if they collided with a child or an elderly person. They also demonstrated that only bicycle shops can maintain a safe bicycle and that home mechanics do not have the necessary skills to do so. In the end, the motor itself added no additional danger to the bicycle so they banned petrol powered cycles on the basis that all bicycles are dangerous at speeds over 19 kph.

Where do you get these notions from. I've read the NSW reviews into PAPCs and their analysis was nothing like this.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby mikedufty » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:43 pm

cj7hawk wrote:The fastest a legally compliant PAPC can go ( petrol or electric ) with a small tailwind is about 30 kph on the flat, and anytime they are doing significantly faster than 25 without a reason ( downhill, strong tailwind, etc ) they are NOT a bicycle


I don't think this is true if the rider is pedalling, since many cyclists can get well over 25kph without any motor assistance. I always turn off the motor when overtaking anyway, the little geared hubs have a freewheel so it doesn't slow you down when it is off, apart from a bit of extra weight.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby human909 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:03 pm

mikedufty wrote:I don't think this is true if the rider is pedalling, since many cyclists can get well over 25kph without any motor assistance. I always turn off the motor when overtaking anyway, the little geared hubs have a freewheel so it doesn't slow you down when it is off, apart from a bit of extra weight.

Correct.

(200W limit or 250W pedal assist with assistance cutting off by 25kph)

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Clintoo » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:42 pm

yeh it's a difficult one, to legislate for and/or enforce. I guess it comes down to the individual, which unfortunately there are a lot of Dckheads out there with no common sense or regard for others, which is what it is really about. or themselves, when you consider people adding what I guess to be 10-20kgs in weight plus doubling the speed to a bike while generally not upgrading the brakes or frame.

I was passed one day by a guy on a old hybrid, with a crappy steel bag rack to which he had strapped a car battery. he then had a motor bolted to some bits of wood which ran a small wheel on top of his tyre. I decided that he probably wasnt the best candidate to get a draft home with.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby wexford » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:10 pm

A few weeks ago I had a bit of a race with a MTB with a 2 stroke motor, heading south on the Mitchell Fwy PSP.

He overcooked three corners - the first under Beach Road (more of a chicane) and put his foot down to steady himself (must have hurt!). The second was just after the Reid Hwy underpass, where he wound up in the trees. I passed him there, and he caught me again as I was waiting at the Karrinyup Road lights (he went straight through the red). I finally got back to him at the Osborne Park overpass, where he went into the side of the bridge trying to turn onto it while doing 45kph.

Nuts! Funny to watch, though.

On Monday an e-bike passed me on James Mitchell cycle path, then got way out of shape in the little chicane before crossing the road. I passed him and suggested his brakes and skills were no match for his engine, then went on to show that his electric engine was no match for biological one when I decided to go for it and dropped him :-)

Overspeed
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Overspeed » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:30 pm

Some dangerous people out there. Can't believe that guy stacked it 3 times! Lol

I get roadie's doing a quick sprint to pass me on my turbo after I've safely passed them earlier in the ride, it's always just before they turn off the main road to head home haha..

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby cj7hawk » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:45 am

human909 wrote:
cj7hawk wrote:And sorry about the smell of 2-stroke petrol - they aren't really causing you any more damage or danger than the non-smelly ones and cars and bikes, but the 2-stroke oil is more easily detected by our noses - while petrol-only-related exhaust isn't as easy to smell at all.

That is completely false.


How so? I'm basing my statement on two sources that independently give about the same outcome - One is the US EPA and the other was a study on air pollution from motor vehicles conducted in 1996 by the world bank. In the case of the EPA comments, which were pretty dodgy, the outcome was that a 2-stroke PAPC at 24kph is about as bad as a modern low-emissions car - So per time, it's about the same, though by distance that can vary a little.

The other study looked at quantities of fuel burnt and the results were about the same - Rough calculations admittedly, but they do have a basis in actual data.

If you've actually worked out the pollution levels yourself and want to contradict me, go right on ahead - I don't mind being proven wrong by a well thought out argument. I'll learn something if that's the case, but I'm not going on what someone else said as many do with this subject - I've actually done the calculations.

You don't seem to have any problem calling me out, so I'll trust that you have the courtesy to respond thoughtfully.


cj7hawk wrote:Any realistic argument you can make for this cause equally applies to human powered bicycles, which are far more powerful than petrol or electric bicycles under almost all circumstances that matter... A better argument might be to argue for yearly confirmation of power output, or certification by an Australian bicycle shop of compliance or similar - but even this carries risk for the bicycling community.

Keep in mind, that the justifications used by the NSW government banning petrol were that all bicycles travelling faster then 19kph are dangerous" and that no bicycles have sufficient brakes or engineering to stop at speeds greater than this. Additionally, any bicycle travelling faster than 19 kph is a danger to pedestrians and would cause serious or lethal injuries if they collided with a child or an elderly person. They also demonstrated that only bicycle shops can maintain a safe bicycle and that home mechanics do not have the necessary skills to do so. In the end, the motor itself added no additional danger to the bicycle so they banned petrol powered cycles on the basis that all bicycles are dangerous at speeds over 19 kph.

Where do you get these notions from. I've read the NSW reviews into PAPCs and their analysis was nothing like this.


The stopping speed between the Pedelec and the Petrol PAPC was proportional to speed, and had nothing to do with the motor in each case, and was based on a gentle and safe stopping speed.

Under emergency braking, the Petrol PAPC recorded a shorted stopping distance than the Pedelec's best distance. Quite significant given that it was also going 5kph faster - Yet the report clearly indicated that the stopping distance of the 24 kph Petrol PAPC was excessive and noted that normal bicycle brakes were not suitable for stopping from that fast speed ( 24 kph ). An engine add's about 4kg to a bike, so doesn't significantly contribute to momentum. As such, speeds of 24 kph are clearly dangerous according to the report...

But since you've read it, perhaps you should read it again. If you read it with a careful eye, you'll find almost nothing of the report was relevant to dangers presented by the petrol engine, but were all attributes of the speeds that the engines could go (eg, mid 30s for illegal, 24kph for legal ) and also the mechanical condition of brand new bicycles clearly never designed to drive at those speeds.

Page 8.
"There was no indication that the components – brakes, wheels, gears, etc – had been upgraded to handle the high speeds the bicycles are capable of achieving with the engines fitted."
What were those "high" speeds? 23.4 kph (legal), 33.7 kph ( illegal) and 34.4 kph (illegal) - All too high for "not-upgraded" bicycle brakes. They also managed to tune up one of the bicycles to get 46 kph out of it - however this required modifications to the bicycle and was not relevant to the initial statement. ( Ref: Test 6.1 )
Note: They do mention though on Page 19 that dual-wheel "Disc" brakes are suitable at high speeds of 19 kph
"The pedalec was fitted with disc brakes that was capable of bring it from maximum speed to a complete stop while retaining control of the pedalec" - The Petrol bicycles used front disc and cantilevel rim rear brakes.

As for the dangers they present? The report was discussed in parliament by the minister, Duncan Gay, who said ( based on the report ) -
"Petrol-powered bikes can travel at up to 40 kilometres an hour as they belt along footpaths and roads. As well as being a huge safety risk to the rider, they are extremely dangerous to everyone around them. In particular, the lives of elderly pedestrians who might have fragile bones could be destroyed if they are hit by one of these bikes."

But feel free to quote any section of the report you feel says otherwise back at me.... Just don't forget to cross-reference the comments with the actual data at the end of the report -

Thanks for your input - Good Information is helpful - Bad information or baseless claims help no one - but all input is still appreciated -

Regards
David

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby NASHIE » Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:05 pm

wexford wrote:
He overcooked three corners - the first under Beach Road (more of a chicane) and put his foot down to steady himself (must have hurt!). The second was just after the Reid Hwy underpass, where he wound up in the trees. I passed him there, and he caught me again as I was waiting at the Karrinyup Road lights (he went straight through the red). I finally got back to him at the Osborne Park overpass, where he went into the side of the bridge trying to turn onto it while doing 45kph.

Nuts! Funny to watch, though.


:lol: Thanks for that.....needed a good chuckle

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ColinOldnCranky
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:21 pm

biker jk wrote:Perhaps the solution is to ban non-human powered bicycles from paths? Yes, a little extreme but petrol powered bicycles are really motorcycles and should be on the road.

Perhaps. But then a pedestrian can make a bit of an argument for banning ALL bikes, powered or otherwise, from PSPs.

I have misgivings about pedelecs and other powered bikes and would be happy to not have to share space with them. But most solutions to most problems from multiple POVs require a bit of complexity.
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Xenon
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Xenon » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:35 pm

It doesn't really matter if a bike is powered by an electric motor, a petrol motor or pedals; they are all dangerous if they are ridden dangerously.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Robinho » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:20 am

Xenon wrote:It doesn't really matter if a bike is powered by an electric motor, a petrol motor or pedals; they are all dangerous if they are ridden dangerously.
true, but a petrol motor assisted bike can't sneak up on you at 45kph quite like an electric bike can

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby zmk » Tue May 26, 2015 10:40 am

Clintoo wrote:blue road bike with battery in a red pannier?

I havent seen him for a while. But I would say he is up in the high 50s.


This guy passed in me in the dark last night, I was doing about 35km/h and he just flew past me. No bell/warning or anything. This guy will eventually run someone over, its only a matter of time.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby cj7hawk » Wed May 27, 2015 11:47 am

zmk wrote:
Clintoo wrote:blue road bike with battery in a red pannier?

I havent seen him for a while. But I would say he is up in the high 50s.


This guy passed in me in the dark last night, I was doing about 35km/h and he just flew past me. No bell/warning or anything. This guy will eventually run someone over, its only a matter of time.


Where are all the sightings/times of this guy? He sounds like a significant danger and the more sightings that are recorded, the more likely someone might find enough information for the police to act -

David.

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mikedufty
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby mikedufty » Wed May 27, 2015 12:33 pm

I've been seeing someone I think fitting the above description regularly around 8-8:15 going north between Canning and Narrows Bridges, blue road bike with pannier, doing about 50kph, passing very close, sometimes with oncoming traffic. Agree it seems only a matter of time until he collides with someone riding like that. Goes past fast enough I haven't been able to see a motor, but he should go pro if he can go that fast without a motor, and it's still dangerous whether it is pedalled or motor assisted.

I'm glad I travel the same direction as him, should be a softer impact.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Wed May 27, 2015 12:39 pm

wexford wrote:A few weeks ago I had a bit of a race with a MTB with a 2 stroke motor, heading south on the Mitchell Fwy PSP.

He overcooked three corners - the first under Beach Road (more of a chicane) and put his foot down to steady himself (must have hurt!). The second was just after the Reid Hwy underpass, where he wound up in the trees. I passed him there, and he caught me again as I was waiting at the Karrinyup Road lights (he went straight through the red). I finally got back to him at the Osborne Park overpass, where he went into the side of the bridge trying to turn onto it while doing 45kph.

Nuts! Funny to watch, though.

On Monday an e-bike passed me on James Mitchell cycle path, then got way out of shape in the little chicane before crossing the road. I passed him and suggested his brakes and skills were no match for his engine, then went on to show that his electric engine was no match for biological one when I decided to go for it and dropped him :-)


I'd chide you for encouraging him. Once he showed his inability you should have dropped out of it. It's not just you out there, it/s the others that are not a party to the adrenalius rush that do get to be apart of the tragedy if it happens.

It's good to see that Darwin is still looking to do it's bit to improve the gene pool however. :lol:
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