Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

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Thoglette
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Thoglette » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:18 pm

cj7hawk wrote:Your misunderstanding here is there's no such thing as a 2hp engine, and there's no engine around that can produce 2hp across it's entire band. That's just not possible. The RPM of the engine is the primary contributor to HP. This is key to understanding what I'm saying.

That's why the Honda is listed as a 2.5 hp motor - and I carefully said "over 1hp across it's entire power band". It actually peaks at two. It'll run all day long at a few thousand RPM.

cj7hawk wrote:and there's a real chance that a 50cc engine will give a result under 200W.


Only if the person doing the gearing is an idiot. Which is quite possible in the cases above.

cj7hawk wrote:On top of that, DoT, who make the rules, have stated that a reasonable test for a bicycle is that, if it runs in two directions on a straight level path, and the average top speed is calculated, and it's around 25kph ( but not exceeding 30 kph ) then that is a reasonable test for real world conditions... And it's so very easy to do as well.


Don't have a problem with this measure.
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Thoglette » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:38 pm

cj7hawk wrote:Your misunderstanding here is there's no such thing as a 2hp engine, and there's no engine around that can produce 2hp across it's entire band. That's just not possible. The RPM of the engine is the primary contributor to HP. This is key to understanding what I'm saying.

That's why the Honda is listed as a 2.5 hp motor - and I carefully said "over 1hp across it's entire power band". It actually peaks at two. It'll run all day long at a few thousand RPM.

cj7hawk wrote:and there's a real chance that a 50cc engine will give a result under 200W.


Only if the person doing the gearing is an idiot. Which is quite possible in the cases above. :shock:

Certainly if you're running a single reduction of 10T/50T you're going to have barely 1,000 rpm on the clock @25pkh and then your two-stroke donk is going to be very anemic. Event the Honda's struggling to put out 1/2hp at that point. At 40kph things will start coming to life as the donk moves away from idle

Geared properly, it's another story: the old 50cc racing motorcycles could easily crack "the ton" - admittedly with 9 or 10 very peaky horsepower.

cj7hawk wrote:On top of that, DoT, who make the rules, have stated that a reasonable test for a bicycle is that, if it runs in two directions on a straight level path, and the average top speed is calculated, and it's around 25kph ( but not exceeding 30 kph ) then that is a reasonable test for real world conditions... And it's so very easy to do as well.


Don't have a problem with this measure. Other than is it's really easy to game.
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby cj7hawk » Sun May 01, 2016 12:44 am

Thoglette wrote:
Only if the person doing the gearing is an idiot. Which is quite possible in the cases above. :shock:

Certainly if you're running a single reduction of 10T/50T you're going to have barely 1,000 rpm on the clock @25pkh and then your two-stroke donk is going to be very anemic. Event the Honda's struggling to put out 1/2hp at that point. At 40kph things will start coming to life as the donk moves away from idle

Geared properly, it's another story: the old 50cc racing motorcycles could easily crack "the ton" - admittedly with 9 or 10 very peaky horsepower.


I doubt the guy who was riding it knew much about it - and the gearing on these things is pretty poor, with badly matched reductions.

Image

From this, it can be seen that they have nearly no power around 1000rpm - and would likely stall. Often the clutches are only set to take up around 4000 rpm because of this. The graph shows some other stuff, like the point at which it should be limited in terms of fuel intake to ensure 200w operation, but it is possible on 50cc two-stroke as well - I had one that graphed out very well. Here's on of my early test charts.

Image

As you can see, this motor would have likely passed a dyno, even if not moving. Max speed was 25 kph, and I think the air inlet was around 4mm in diameter - quite narrow. It was pretty gutless, and you couldn't engage the motor below about 12 kph because of that, with anything below 18kph causing the motor to labour. The variations in speed follow the gradient of the roads I was riding on. Interestingly, above about 33kph, the engine provided a heavy braking effect - I don't think I ever got it over 40 with the engine on, and that was down a road I could coast at 60 if the engine was disengaged.

It was a pretty common motor too - so there's a good chance that guy in Northam has one like this and it did look the same. If so, I think the WAPOL will have a hard time proving it overpowered. Then again, they might have seen him going a bit fast, in which case he'll go.

Regards
David

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby citywomble » Sun May 01, 2016 4:40 pm

Hi David,

I think the WAPOL will have a hard time proving it overpowered


Herein lies the fundemental error.

If it is a bike, and has a motor, then there is a blanket rule that says it is a motor bike except where it is below a certain power. Because it is an 'exception rule' it is automatically considered a motorbike unless it can be proven to be exempted. The police have to prove nothing, the rider of the bike is required to prove it is not.

If it is a legal e-bike or pedelec then it will have conformance plates or appropriate documentation. If these are not available then the burden of proof is with the rider. If it is an easily recognised conforming e-bike then police would have little incentive or grounds to stop and/or seek evidence. However, if it is petrol powered, appears to have a larger electric motor, or is seen travelling at an inappropriate speed, then I would suggest it is reasonable to stop and check (for registration details) and the burden would be on the rider to prove that the vehicle was exempted.

Also, I do not believe your arguements for progressively reducing the motor output power down to actual power at the wheel, or allowing for wind resistance, have any bearing at all. The definition of a bicycle in the Road Traffic Code is clear the the limit for a permissible auxiliary motor is "capable or generating a power output...". It is the ability of the motor to generate less that a specific output (to the bike) and not provide that output (to the wheel) that counts.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby trailgumby » Sun May 01, 2016 7:24 pm

citywomble wrote:If it is a bike, and has a motor, then there is a blanket rule that says it is a motor bike except where it is below a certain power. Because it is an 'exception rule' it is automatically considered a motorbike unless it can be proven to be exempted. The police have to prove nothing, the rider of the bike is required to prove it is not.

We've been to-ing and fro-ing on this point, he and I.

I'm not sure if he's having trouble with comprehending how the law operates (as you've expressed it in the bit I underlined) or just doesn't want to accept it.

Seems the only way for him to absorb the lesson is to get pinged and have the magistrate himself school him on how the burden of proof operates when the law is constructed this way. WA is not a special case in this regard, even though they think they're another country whenever there's a mining boom.

I've done all I can to assist him to stay out of trouble by educating. If he's not going to accept it, he'll just have to learn the hard way.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby softy » Sun May 01, 2016 8:34 pm

Just a comment here;

I do believe CJ7hawk has a motorised bicycle and went to extreme measures to make it conform to Western Australia legislation. Contacting all relevant Authorities.

CJ please let me know if I am off the mark here, but from your previous posts on this forum it appeared you went through this process.

I would personally consider he knows what he is talking about and the law requirements in WA.

Also the laws on motorised bicycles do vary between states.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby cj7hawk » Mon May 02, 2016 10:34 am

softy wrote:Just a comment here;

I do believe CJ7hawk has a motorised bicycle and went to extreme measures to make it conform to Western Australia legislation. Contacting all relevant Authorities.

CJ please let me know if I am off the mark here, but from your previous posts on this forum it appeared you went through this process.

I would personally consider he knows what he is talking about and the law requirements in WA.

Also the laws on motorised bicycles do vary between states.


Hi Softy, that is correct. I have quite a significant volume of correspondence with the Department of Transport, and they offered me several of their experts in addressing this question, so I'm not just basing my comments on some vague legal concept that I am attempting to twist to my own meaning - I'm taking it directly from the proper authority in this case, and they did go to some effort to provide information. I have a range of correspondence from them confirming how they view the legislation, which is all I would need in a court case, were one to happen. They might not necessarily be correct of course, but I'm just pointing out which side of the debate they sit on.

That covers both pure petrol bicycles and also my own hybrid system, which the DoT said would be regarded as an electric, as the legislation would only cover propulsion motors. ( My generator is 800~1000 W, but the bicycle is calibrated to 200W and I put my own calibration sticker on it. It's legit and could easily pass testing. ).

The WA Police Traffic Branch also weighed in on the subject when I spoke to them, and said they would need some indication that the bicycle wasn't legal before taking action, eg, the speed too fast without rider input etc. You are correct that proof is not needed - all they would require is an indication that it was not legal, but they still need that to act.

I'm not disagreeing about where the burden of proof lies. I'm just pointing out that in the absence of any other evidence in a police case, the burden of proof is not that high. Sure, the police could take it to court without any evidence, but if they did, the defendant could just claim he purchased it as compliant and so it is. If there was no over evidence tendered, or a basis for the police to dispute the defendant's claim, then that would be the end of it. There is sufficient evidence that engines can and do provide power outputs of less than 200W to support the claim, and if they tendered a photograph of such an engineered engine, and it looked the same as theirs, there's not much more would be required. Even the NSW ORS report against petrol bicycles could be regarded as proof of compliance, since they did in fact confirm compliance in such a way that it would count under WA law.

A defendant could also claim that they are unable to provide proof as the bicycle was impounded, denying them the ability to collect the evidence needed to demonstrate their innocence in the matter. Losing the presumption of innocence and being denied the opportunity to collect evidence to defend themselves isn't likely to go very far.

Anyway, I have no idea of the background of the bicycles in the photographs. I assume they police did have an indication that they were illegal, and I doubt the police are going to make stuff up. However, stating things like "put a motor on it and it's illegal" are just plain incorrect. That is the only issue I have with the police actions in this case. That's a bit like pulling over a speeder and then running a campaign showing the car, ignoring the offence and saying "Get behind the wheel and we'll throw you in jail".

For what it's worth, the people I spoke to at the Traffic branch did agree with me on that, but asked if I could leave it with them for a week for the process to happen as they are busy at the moment. It does have to be investigated.

Regards
David.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby trailgumby » Mon May 02, 2016 11:19 pm

David - so yours is petrol-electric, essentially an electric drive bike with a petrol engine generator instead of a battery?

If the (electric) motor is regulated to a maximum of 200W that is a very different scenario to what I initially understood, which was that the petrol engine powered the bike directly. Your solution would be compliant, and you would be fine (ie, not fined ;) ). Quite a clever (if smelly) solution to having greater range while remaining legal.

However, the operation of the law is as I and others have explained. Since you are relying on a specific exception to the general rule that powered vehicles are "registerable", the burden of proof is on you if you are prosecuted, not the police. It is far from vague, it is black letter law, although the nuances are not widely known.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby cj7hawk » Tue May 03, 2016 10:12 am

trailgumby wrote:David - so yours is petrol-electric, essentially an electric drive bike with a petrol engine generator instead of a battery?


Almost - It does have a battery too, and is a fully compliant electric bike when the generator is unclipped and removed. The generator is just a range extender/charger as I do about 50~60km per trip, which is more than I or the battery can handle.

It's rather unique in that I've also build the generator to comply with EN15194 (Pedelec laws) as an integrated charger under the the rules, so theoretically, it would be legal in NSW and QLD also. Though how well it would work would be entirely dependent on the particular model of Pedelec and whether it's charge port could take the full power output to charge the batteries and supply power to the bike. Pedelecs can easily absorb a 1000W too, so batteries are a must.

Mind you, the batteries in my PAPC are almost dead now - I think I've gotten something equivalent to over 1000 full cycles on the VRLA ( lead acid ) batteries to date. It also complies with other laws, such as 4-stroke and emissions rules, and also the safety rules for small engines so is all covered with plastic shielding to prevent burns to myself or other people. I've almost cracked 100 hours with the generator now, which is entirely 3D printed on a home 3D printer, so replacement parts are just made at home.

I did start with a Petrol-only though, which got me back into cycling, so all my original research with the DoT was on purely petrol bicycles and they original advice I received from them was based on Petrol. I don't mind petrol only bikes - I think there's a place for them and WA started with legal petrol bikes over a quarter century ago, when electric didn't exist. But I also can see that Petrol bikes have a LOT of big problems, such as two-stroke for a start, not to mention burn dangers and compliance requirements to keep them within power limits. So that's why I developed something better.

Anyway, I am getting off track. I have actually gone through all the engineering and compliance checks for direct drive internal combustion bicycles here in WA, and that is why I was saying that it's possible that the guy who was caught will get away with it - at least if they are smart enough to defend themselves properly. I fully understand that the proof must be supplied by the use, and do appreciate the reminder, but that's why I went the long way around through the DoT, and made sure I had all the evidence collected in advance to support myself, long before I ever rode it.

I'd have no problems providing that evidence to the two riders caught last week either, but I have no idea who they were. I'm not saying I condone whatever ( if anything ) they did to get police attention in the first place - but the law needs to be enforced fairly, openly and evenly.

Regards
David

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby MrStroppy » Thu May 12, 2016 10:08 am

Stumbled across this forum when searching for WA laws relating to electric bikes, have to say I was amazed by some of the comments I read in this thread.

After riding for many years 20+ and taking a ~10 year break I'm now getting back into it, being unfit the logical choice was to purchase a pedelec and take advantage of the assistance it provided. I'm not sure how that makes me a bad/evil person or more dangerous than any other rider on a shared path or the road.

As a pedestrian I was knocked unconscious while walking along the footpath by a bike rider, it wasn't on a bike path or a shared footpath it was a pedestrian only path (at the time). All I remember is being shaken by the bike rider on the side of the path as he'd run into the back of me, his excuse "I wasn't paying attention, sorry"

Second incident, my wife used to ride from Maylands to East Perth along the bike path to get to work. She was in the right hand lane, had signalled she was turning onto the overpass to cross the railway line and 3x riders riding abreast took her out running straight into the back of her.

She was sent flying over the handlebars, knocking out two of her teeth, bending the frame of her bike and all they did was pick her up, asked her if she was ok (yup face bleeding and all) and walked off as one of their bikes as damaged. Didn't provide any contact details either just a name, total out of pocket medical expenses exceeded $1k plus a new bike which she never really rode again after that incident.

The point of my post is that there's idiot bike riders out there, just because you ride an ebike/pedelec doesn't make you any more dangerous than a regular rider, it's how you ride the bike that matters.

I do agree that some ebikes such as the stealth bomber and variations of that don't have a place on shared paths, to me they're more of an electric dirt bike with pedals.

I don't believe a pedelec should exceed 45kh/h which is pretty much the speed a decent rider can get up to without assistance. Not sure I understand the logic behind limiting the motor wattage though as with the Bosch Mid drive bikes being sold in AU all have the larger capacity motor that's being sold elsewhere in the world, it's just being limited by software.
Last edited by MrStroppy on Fri May 13, 2016 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby AUbicycles » Thu May 12, 2016 11:39 am

It is good to point out that it is the individual and their actions are not representative of everyone else.

Regardless of bike rider or motorists - a general trend of courtesy towards others will go a long way. The majority of road users (car, truck, bicycle) are great, some are occasionally rotten and some are simply rotten. City taxi drivers are one group which I have found to have a much higher percentage of rotten drivers.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby mikedufty » Thu May 12, 2016 5:36 pm

MrStroppy wrote:I don't believe a pedelec should exceed 45kh/h which is pretty much the speed a decent rider can get up to without assistance.

Well this is not a thread about pedelecs, it is about "dangerously fast powered bikes on the PSP". Most of the bikes/riders discussed are doing at least 45kph and being ridden dangerously. Doesn't mean there is anything wrong with pedelecs.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby outnabike » Thu May 12, 2016 9:40 pm

I reckon your wrong there.
45 klm on a shared path is too dangerous for the kids that gravitate to such bikes.
Yep we use the analogy of "Good Riders can do 45 kph" and then extrapolate that to folks who cant get past 30 kph on a good day on a bike.

Then we don't mind them doing 45 as we think it is the law and permitted. I just reckon that the younger risk takers wont care less and simply zoom around peds and not be concerned at all.

I know they are in the minority but the dills on the small motorbikes that killed that lady in Carrum Downs in Vic are just the tip of the iceberg.
No way would they ride a bike that makes them work. 45 kph will suite them fine on the paths, and like they did to cyclists at Carrum Downs, they will play chicken with cyclists on the paths,and buzz the peds.

Year a good cyclist will slow when appropriate, and he works hard to speed up again.Not so a pedelec.
If these things get a 45 kph limit that's ok but then limit them to the road. It is where most people would take them I would say.
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby softy » Thu May 12, 2016 11:35 pm

outnabike wrote:I reckon your wrong there.
45 klm on a shared path is too dangerous for the kids that gravitate to such bikes.
Yep we use the analogy of "Good Riders can do 45 kph" and then extrapolate that to folks who cant get past 30 kph on a good day on a bike.

Then we don't mind them doing 45 as we think it is the law and permitted. I just reckon that the younger risk takers wont care less and simply zoom around peds and not be concerned at all.

I know they are in the minority but the dills on the small motorbikes that killed that lady in Carrum Downs in Vic are just the tip of the iceberg.
No way would they ride a bike that makes them work. 45 kph will suite them fine on the paths, and like they did to cyclists at Carrum Downs, they will play chicken with cyclists on the paths,and buzz the peds.

Year a good cyclist will slow when appropriate, and he works hard to speed up again.Not so a pedelec.
If these things get a 45 kph limit that's ok but then limit them to the road. It is where most people would take them I would say.


I think you need to ride a commercial pedelec, they are not motorbikes, they assist. everyone forgets they are a heavy lump at around 25kg. I think you will be surprised they are not that much faster than a serious road bike due to the weight difference. Where pedelec are great is maintain speed up hills, it is 5 to 10km higher. otherwise they are not a lot different than a normal bike.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby cj7hawk » Fri May 13, 2016 12:03 am

softy wrote:
outnabike wrote:I reckon your wrong there.
45 klm on a shared path is too dangerous for the kids that gravitate to such bikes.
Yep we use the analogy of "Good Riders can do 45 kph" and then extrapolate that to folks who cant get past 30 kph on a good day on a bike.

Then we don't mind them doing 45 as we think it is the law and permitted. I just reckon that the younger risk takers wont care less and simply zoom around peds and not be concerned at all.

I know they are in the minority but the dills on the small motorbikes that killed that lady in Carrum Downs in Vic are just the tip of the iceberg.
No way would they ride a bike that makes them work. 45 kph will suite them fine on the paths, and like they did to cyclists at Carrum Downs, they will play chicken with cyclists on the paths,and buzz the peds.

Year a good cyclist will slow when appropriate, and he works hard to speed up again.Not so a pedelec.
If these things get a 45 kph limit that's ok but then limit them to the road. It is where most people would take them I would say.


I think you need to ride a commercial pedelec, they are not motorbikes, they assist. everyone forgets they are a heavy lump at around 25kg. I think you will be surprised they are not that much faster than a serious road bike due to the weight difference. Where pedelec are great is maintain speed up hills, it is 5 to 10km higher. otherwise they are not a lot different than a normal bike.


All commercial Pedelecs should be a heavy lump at 25kph, but most will do about 34 to 45 kph, and many have a throttle. If the police catch you on one, they probably won't do anything, but if something goes wrong and the bike gets tested, there will be a lot of trouble for riding unlicensed.

Anyway, Perth laws for MrStroppy... You can ride a PAPC to 200W ( will do about 25 kph ) or a Pedelec to 250W ( Will do about 20-23 kph ). Both are legal. So are sub-200W petrol.

I too need assist to ride - :) I have a 200W electric and a small generator though, so my daily commutes of 52km aren't too bad.

Anyway, here's a breakdown of the laws for powered cycles in Perth.

Road Traffic (Administration) Act 2008, current 15 May 2015.

motor vehicle —

(a) in relation to authorisation to drive, means a vehicle that is built to be propelled by a motor that forms part of the vehicle;

(b) otherwise, means a selfpropelled vehicle that is not operated on rails and —

(i) includes a trailer, semitrailer or caravan while attached to the vehicle; but

(ii) does not include a power assisted pedal cycle;

and

power assisted pedal cycle means a vehicle —

(a) designed to be propelled through a mechanism operated solely by human power; and

(b) to which is attached one or more auxiliary propulsion motors having a combined maximum output not exceeding the amount of power prescribed for the purposes of this definition;

The power prescribed for the purposes refers to the Road Traffic (Administration) Regulations 2014 current 14 Nov 2015 which states;

4. Power assisted pedal cycles
(1) In this regulation —
pedalec means a vehicle that meets the standard of the European Committee for Standardization entitled EN 15194:2009 or EN 15194:2009+A1:2011 Cycles — Electrically power assisted cycles — EPAC Bicycles.
(2) For the definition of power assisted pedal cycle in section 4, the amount of power is —
(a) for a pedalec — 250 W; and
(b) for any other kind of power assisted pedal cycle — 200 W.

The Road Traffic (Vehicles) Regulations 2014 current 01 Jul 2015 that you have referenced is also important to this matter and states;

228. Application
This Part does not apply to any of these vehicles —
(a) a vehicle used only on a railway or tramway;
(b) a vehicle designed to be controlled by a person walking next to it;
(c) a bicycle;
(d) any vehicle (other than a power assisted pedal cycle) propelled by a motor with a maximum power output of not over 200 W;

and;

3. bicycle has the meaning given in the Road Traffic Code 2000 regulation 3(1);

The Road Traffic Code 2000 current 27 April 2016 regulation 3(1) states;

bicycle means a vehicle with 2 or more wheels that is built to be propelled by human power through a belt, chain or gears (whether or not it has an auxiliary motor) and —

(a) includes a pedicab, pennyfarthing, tricycle and power assisted pedal cycle; but

(b) does not include a wheelchair, wheeled recreational device, wheeled toy or any vehicle (other than a power assisted pedal cycle) with an auxiliary motor capable of generating a power output over 200 watts (whether or not the motor is operating);


Regards
David

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby MrStroppy » Fri May 13, 2016 10:57 am

outnabike wrote:I reckon your wrong there.
45 klm on a shared path is too dangerous for the kids that gravitate to such bikes.
Yep we use the analogy of "Good Riders can do 45 kph" and then extrapolate that to folks who cant get past 30 kph on a good day on a bike.

Then we don't mind them doing 45 as we think it is the law and permitted. I just reckon that the younger risk takers wont care less and simply zoom around peds and not be concerned at all.

I know they are in the minority but the dills on the small motorbikes that killed that lady in Carrum Downs in Vic are just the tip of the iceberg.
No way would they ride a bike that makes them work. 45 kph will suite them fine on the paths, and like they did to cyclists at Carrum Downs, they will play chicken with cyclists on the paths,and buzz the peds.

Year a good cyclist will slow when appropriate, and he works hard to speed up again.Not so a pedelec.
If these things get a 45 kph limit that's ok but then limit them to the road. It is where most people would take them I would say.


I can't speak about Bike paths in Victoria, but in Perth around my area they're pretty decent, two lanes wide, fairly flat along the railway line and while some pedestrians do use the cycle path to walk along, there's generally a separate footpath running along side for pedestrian use, so I don't think 40-45km/h is that bad under those conditions.

You talk about a pedelec rider not slowing when appropriate or not having to work hard to get back up to speed, can I ask if you've ridden one? it's absolutely nothing like what you're suggesting and I believe the analogy of "riding with a tail wind" is quiet accurate.

I actually live down near the river and the bike path has been there for some 15+ years, they closed a section of it off last year as pedestrians and dogs were being taken out by cyclists, never seen an electric bike down there, seen a petrol powered one once but generally it's just standard bikes.

The bike path along the railway line that I touched on above is heavily used on the weekend, often with riders riding 2 and sometimes 3 abreast and often in groups of ten or more. I wouldn't like to guess their speeds but since it's the internet I'd say at least 30km/h if not more depending on the group.

To me riding 2-3 abreast is far more dangerous than riding 40km/h on a flat purpose built cycle path, same with riding in a group of 10+ riders when it's likely not something you'd usually do.

End of the day I think ebikes/pedelecs are a great thing, It enables elderly people to get out there and ride a bike, people that aren't the fittest, people with disabilities and the more bikes out there the better right?

As for the laws in WA, I'd like to see the wattage restriction removed and speed limited to 45km/h (max). I also don't believe a throttle has a place on a bicycle but I'm sure some disagree.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby MrStroppy » Fri May 13, 2016 11:06 am

cj7hawk wrote:Anyway, Perth laws for MrStroppy... You can ride a PAPC to 200W ( will do about 25 kph ) or a Pedelec to 250W ( Will do about 20-23 kph ). Both are legal. So are sub-200W petrol.

I too need assist to ride - :) I have a 200W electric and a small generator though, so my daily commutes of 52km aren't too bad.

Regards
David


Thanks for that, I did find the link to transport and had a good read.

One question I do have, they speak about a 250W limit on the motor, does this mean I could have a 500W motor as long as it's limited to 250W via software.

The reason I ask is most of the Bosch Mid Drive pedelecs being sold as "legal" bikes within Australia are being sold as the Bosch 250W motor when the motor is actually the 350W version with a 250W grey logo on the side that's running a different firmware.

The torque, RPM etc is identical between the 250W and 350W motor, one just goes to 45km/h and the other 25km/h and if you open them up the internals are identical.

SimoneF
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby SimoneF » Sat May 14, 2016 3:00 am

I was riding on the Armadale Line PSP at Welshpool and a cyclist with a battery powered something or other, no helmet I might add, wizzed past me, then it spluttered and powered down to a stop. I had a little chuckle to myself as I cycled past him. He was trying to jump start it or something, it looked home engineered, there are knob heads like that especially around here industrial area.

I ride to work and back Kewdale Road and I am regularly overtaken by rough looking guys on Repco/KMart bikes with home made engines that give out a choking stink and whine of two stroke fumes, again no helmet on a 70km/hr road, stupid stupids everywhere. Ped-elecs sound great as long as you ding your bell when passing if its very quiet, so I can keep left :)

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roller
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby roller » Sat May 14, 2016 1:48 pm

SimoneF wrote:I was riding on the Armadale Line PSP at Welshpool and a cyclist with a battery powered something or other, no helmet I might add, wizzed past me, then it spluttered and powered down to a stop. I had a little chuckle to myself as I cycled past him. He was trying to jump start it or something, it looked home engineered, there are knob heads like that especially around here industrial area.


why is this guy a knob head?

he can home engineer an electric bike?

he overtook you?

his bike broke down?

he didn't wear a helmet?
inflammatory statement or idea

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Thoglette
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Thoglette » Sat May 14, 2016 10:41 pm

MrStroppy wrote:One question I do have, they speak about a 250W limit on the motor, does this mean I could have a 500W motor as long as it's limited to 250W via software.


CJ's previous comments (which are well researched) indicate that this would be considered OK/
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

cj7hawk
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby cj7hawk » Mon May 16, 2016 4:53 pm

Thoglette wrote:
MrStroppy wrote:One question I do have, they speak about a 250W limit on the motor, does this mean I could have a 500W motor as long as it's limited to 250W via software.


CJ's previous comments (which are well researched) indicate that this would be considered OK/


As long as you can't access power above 200W, then it should comply with the law. Accessed means via the throttle, or PAS or something else. Throttle is only for 200W and I suggest that as the starting point at least until the fix the laws with respect to 250w related issues over Australia.

Anyway, to comply with 250w, Just make sure it cuts out by 25kph, with 250w maximum around 22/23 kph, and it should be OK, though technically probably won't comply with the laws and could at least be argued that it does. Police have also said that they won't be going after anyone that appears to be compliant, so I doubt they would take issue with a bike that appeared compliant.

With 200w, it's a lot easier, and you can get speeds above 25 kph downhill or with a tailwind, but average will be 25 kph. In my case, I write up a little calibration certificate and affix it over the calibration point, so that it can't be adjusted without removing the certificate. A compliant 200W bicycle will usually be a fair bit faster than a compliant 250W bicycle, but won't have anywhere near as much power for climbing hills. ( 250W compliant bicycles can actually put out somewhere near 1kW up a hill ).

Also, I started with a 500W rated motor, derated it to 125W to meet Australian conditions by halving the voltage, then use a fixed boost circuit to rebuild it to 200W, that is power limited on either voltage or current. I suppose you could do the same with a 500W motor, then include a circuit to limit the power ( through PWM ) to under 200W. Though if you can't meet the 250W power curve, by adjusting power in accordance with speed, then there's no point going 250W.

After all, there's no such thing as a 200 or 250W motor that can't put out more power - Just upping the voltage would achieve that. All it takes is a battery changout and there are entire forums dedicated to upgrading 250W bicycles to 500W and even 1000W.

If you want to go 250W instead of 200W, PM me a message and I'll send through a copy of the rules. They are quite complex and onerous though. 200W has far less rules and is well understood, and has the capability to go faster. If you just want to avoid police attention, stay under 30kph and pedal :)

Regards
David

foz
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby foz » Mon May 16, 2016 6:18 pm

Hi..had a scooter..50cc come past me today on Tonkin Hwy cycleway before Leach Hwy..
They weren't being hoons, rode on shoulder of path.
Still a bit of a surprise to see this..

nachoman
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby nachoman » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:48 am

another recent one from twitter:

https://twitter.com/WAPoliceTraffic/sta ... 0217335808

Image

KELMSCOTT: @GosnellsPol. If power is >200w on your motorised bike and you have no MDL we will impound it. #motorbike


and

Our vehicle examination gurus test them and compile a report. The exact way they test them, I do not know.

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Aushiker
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Aushiker » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:52 pm

nachoman wrote:another recent one from twitter:

https://twitter.com/WAPoliceTraffic/sta ... 0217335808

Image

KELMSCOTT: @GosnellsPol. If power is >200w on your motorised bike and you have no MDL we will impound it. #motorbike


and

Our vehicle examination gurus test them and compile a report. The exact way they test them, I do not know.


Can't see it on Twitter. Apparently blocked by WA Traffic ... whoops.
Andrew
~ Aushiker.com

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