Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

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SNAKE ®
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby SNAKE ® » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:34 am

There is an annoying dude on an E-bike who rides on the Kwinana PSP with black puffy clothes, black motorbike helmet with visor doing 45-50kmhr. Sure ive sat behind him for a free draft on a few occasions but stopped as his behavior and riding style is way too dangerous. I recently had a bad crash as someone else on an E-bike overtook me then caused a crash.

I have to make a generalisation (and Im sorry if im wrong) but I am yet to see anyone on an E-bike, show any courtesy or respect to other cyclists on the PSP. They never use their arms to indicate, or sit behind a group where there is no room to overtake. I got so Pssed off with one who dangerously cut off a bunch of us just south of the narrows bridge (causing some of us to collide to avoid him) that I hit over 50km/hr chasing him down to rip into him. A55hole was on a different planet and didn't care.
Sure E-bike have an appropriate place on paths. Full throttle in peak times is not that place.
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Thoglette » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:04 am

SNAKE ® wrote:I have to make a generalisation (and Im sorry if im wrong) but I am yet to see anyone on an E-bike, show any courtesy or respect to other cyclists on the PSP.


That's because you're not looking.

You're looking for and at people who have already decided that the law does not apply to them (no legal e-bike can do 40kph)

There's no point AT ALL complaining here. You need to get some enforcement from the relevant authorities - who currently don't care (c.f. the recent accident at Warwick)
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Aushiker » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:24 am

SNAKE ® wrote:I have to make a generalisation (and Im sorry if im wrong) but I am yet to see anyone on an E-bike, show any courtesy or respect to other cyclists on the PSP. They never use their arms to indicate, or sit behind a group where there is no room to overtake.


As a part-time e-bike rider (and yes I can get to 40 km/h down-hill which is about the same speed on the same section my previously owned recumbents used to do, my carbon bike did and my Surly Long Haul Trucker still does) I do show courtesy to other riders, pedestrians and motor vehicle operators and I do endeavor to ride responsibly what ever bike I am riding. The choice of bike makes no difference whats so ever to my riding behaviour.

As to the arm signalling, when I see every non-e-bike rider doing it I will give you some credibility, but until then I call you on that.

Also I suggest you need to take off your blinkers with respect to the behaviour of non-e-bike riders ... some individuals can be as worse if not worse as these forums show and I have personally experienced on both my e-bike and non-e-bike.

Just because you choose to not ride an e-bike it does not make you better than riders who do.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby SNAKE ® » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:35 am

Andrew, contrary to the assumption I am attacking E-bikes, I see more push bikes riders show less courtesy and respect to other bike users so I am not attacking E-bike riders here. No blinkers on - just my observation.

I agree that it all comes down to the individual - not what they use. But it certainly doesnt help the image of a respectful e-bike rider when there are rogue riders out there doing dangerously stupid things.
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby 446006 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:53 pm

To be honest I see more non e-bike riders failing to signal than e-bike riders whom signal. Non e-bike riders, especially the ones whom think they are all this and that decked out in lycra and top end bikes AND especially group rides whom tend to HOG the whole width of the footpath not even allowing other users to overtake them, also hoon past others FAILING to signal and call out, and think they are just better than the average bike rider on the PSP motorised or not.
So I tend to agree it dosnt matter what you are riding it comes down to the individual, but I see more of what I consider "top end experienced " riders whom should set a better example than just WINGE at a certain mode of transport rider just because they may zoom past you and you get the "jelousy" I am not so fast rider anymore factor LOL

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby Mububban » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:09 pm

Now we've got cyclists making blanket statements about OTHER cyclists, just as happens with motorists vs cyclists :( Stupid people abound, and it appears more of them are riding bikes nowadays. Also I think we as a society are becoming less polite and tolerant towards each other, more selfish and "me me me" which is filtering through everything.

My totally legal e-assist MTB won't push itself on a flat any faster than maybe 33kph, and with me pedalling my scrawny legs furiously I'm lucky to maintain 35kph (she's an old heavy beast but too sturdy to get rid of). I routinely get passed by fit road bike riders who pass me like I'm standing still, on leg power alone. With no bell or call of "passing" I might add.
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby cj7hawk » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:55 pm

I can get up to about 33 without pedaling since I have a boost circuit to counter back-emf, but only with about a 15km/h tailwind... Had a great ride into Perth from Midland with most of the bike path on about 29 average, which I thought was great but wasn't so much fun pedaling back into the wind on the return trip, although I did get a lot of exercise-

Anyway, I think that riders who try to ride legal are usually pretty courteous, while riders that don't really care tend to be the less courteous ones.. Whether it's an overpowered motor or just a lack of bells and reflectors, there's definitely an element within cycling that doesn't care about the law and these same people tend not to care about those around them also - no surprises there.

However, never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity or ignorance - because there's a lot of people who may not be aware that they should be under 200w, or that they should use their bell... These people aren't necessarily !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! - they may just be new to riding.

One thing is certain - the government/police certainly do not seem to be doing anything about it -

David.

p.s. Wow, that bad word sensor is set pretty light isn't it?

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:02 pm

SNAKE ® wrote:...I have to make a generalisation (and Im sorry if im wrong) but I am yet to see anyone on an E-bike, show any courtesy or respect to other cyclists on the PSP....


I acknowledge your qualification, generalisations are always risky. But, while numbers of e-bikers I see are small, from my own observations I would not be so harsh.

We are probably on about the same page though. I see, pro rata, more badly behaved e-ccylists than badly behaved cyclists. And over all I see a few too many of both.

On a positive note I have only ever seen one, yes, only ONE unicyclist riding inappropriately. :mrgreen: And that was mostly because he was trying to impress me until I told him not to bother. (The other two were fine.)

Ergo...Unicyclists rule!
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Need speed limits not power limits

Postby mrrtmrrt » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:22 am

There's not much difference if you get hit by a human-powered bike cranking along at 30-40kmph in unsafe conditions versus a lightweight e-bike doing the same speed. A pedestrian friend of my family suffered serious brain damage after she was hit by a fast non-powered cyclist on a shared path a few years back.

I think what we really need is speed limits at dangerous sections of cycle paths for all users and encouragement/enforcement of safe riding practices, rather than power limits (within reason) on e-bikes. While I agree 8KW(!!) e-bikes on PSPs are asking for trouble, A heavy cargo bike or pedal-rickshaw or trike with a 500W - 1KW motor to get up hills or maintain a decent but safe speed should be legal as they are in many other countries.

If we are serious about wanting to provide compelling alternatives to the 1.5 ton automobile for the sizeable section of the population who can't or won't go pedal-power alone, it would be very sad to throw out the baby with the bath-water if we ban most e-bikes because of the foolish actions of a few. Some countries have different categories for different e-bike power ratings that allow users to choose more powerful e-bike options with appropriate usage restrictions and in some cases licensing which I hope Australian legislators will consider.

In addition, perhaps we need dedicated lanes alongside PSPs such as the Kwinana Freeway cycle path for fast cyclists and e-bike users to provide a safer segregation of foot traffic from fast commuter cyclists?

It's sad that it is the nitwits like Mr Red Panniers who pose a danger to everyone and tar all the sensible e-bike users.

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Re: Need speed limits not power limits

Postby softy » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:47 am

mrrtmrrt wrote:There's not much difference if you get hit by a human-powered bike cranking along at 30-40kmph in unsafe conditions versus a lightweight e-bike doing the same speed. A pedestrian friend of my family suffered serious brain damage after she was hit by a fast non-powered cyclist on a shared path a few years back.

I think what we really need is speed limits at dangerous sections of cycle paths for all users and encouragement/enforcement of safe riding practices, rather than power limits (within reason) on e-bikes. While I agree 8KW(!!) e-bikes on PSPs are asking for trouble, A heavy cargo bike or pedal-rickshaw or trike with a 500W - 1KW motor to get up hills or maintain a decent but safe speed should be legal as they are in many other countries.

If we are serious about wanting to provide compelling alternatives to the 1.5 ton automobile for the sizeable section of the population who can't or won't go pedal-power alone, it would be very sad to throw out the baby with the bath-water if we ban most e-bikes because of the foolish actions of a few. Some countries have different categories for different e-bike power ratings that allow users to choose more powerful e-bike options with appropriate usage restrictions and in some cases licensing which I hope Australian legislators will consider.

In addition, perhaps we need dedicated lanes alongside PSPs such as the Kwinana Freeway cycle path for fast cyclists and e-bike users to provide a safer segregation of foot traffic from fast commuter cyclists?

It's sad that it is the nitwits like Mr Red Panniers who pose a danger to everyone and tar all the sensible e-bike users.


This is true, in Germany they have a S pedelec which takes away the 25km limit, they also require plates, but use the same motors and controls.
I rode a commercially built pedelec. 40km is flat out pedalling hard, my average speed is just under 30km. Now a fit rider on a roadie can easily achieve these speeds, yes up hills is a slight advantage. I always ring my bell when passing.

Now to all those non E-bike riders, I see very few, giving hand signals or ringing their bell to warn others. Most roadies don't even have bells! I also see groups riding on psps two three abreast, illegal!

I think the real problem here is the rider, not the bike, it is the same with cars, powerful or not powerful, the driver controls it.

If you start policing speed on psp etc. It will really deter cycling, just imagine people getting fined like cars, cameras etc. No fun riding then! Is this what we really want?

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Re: Need speed limits not power limits

Postby mrrtmrrt » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:57 am

softy wrote:If you start policing speed on psp etc. It will really deter cycling, just imagine people getting fined like cars, cameras etc. No fun riding then! Is this what we really want?


I know what you mean, that's why I only suggested speed limits at "dangerous sections of cycle paths". Perhaps rather than speed limits, more warning signs might help? One way or another some sort of policing might be the only solution to stop the idiots (both powered and un-powered).

That twisty PSP along the Canning River between the Canning and Mt Henry bridges for example should have a speed limit/warning signs because it is so full of pedestrians and children, twists and turns and overhanging branches as to be quite unsafe for a fast commuter bike (powered or un-powered) to use. However, the Freeway cycle paths should only have speed limits or warnings at dangerous sections like the sharp turns under Canning Bridge.

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Re: Need speed limits not power limits

Postby softy » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:10 am

mrrtmrrt wrote:
softy wrote:If you start policing speed on psp etc. It will really deter cycling, just imagine people getting fined like cars, cameras etc. No fun riding then! Is this what we really want?


I know what you mean, that's why I suggested "speed limits at dangerous sections of cycle paths for all users". That twisty PSP along the Canning River between the Canning and Mt Henry bridges for example should have a speed limit because it is so full of pedestrians and children, twists and turns and overhanging branches as to be quite unsafe for a fast commuter bike (powered or un-powered) to use. However, the Freeway cycle paths should only have speed limits or warnings at dangerous sections like the sharp turns under Canning Bridge.


Yes your right,
This psp for some reason has people switching off! It is also very bumpy so you tend to move over to miss the root damage in the path.
You get peds walking accross the path, turning off for the scenic routes, bikes riding abreast etc.
A advisory sign maybe the answer, but as suggest in other threads it will be very slow. Govs, think 25km is fast so it may be 15km or lower.
I think they base their logical on the limitation of a helmet (19km) and the calculated power of a average human 250w.
If it was under 15km I would not be happy.
It is probably due for a re-surface, this would improve things considerable, they may even straighten it out somewhat, this would be the answer.
My bell gets a workout along here, also I use a old style bell, long ring, the new one "ding" bells I find not adequate.
Last edited by softy on Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby softy » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:15 am

I noticed also they have painted the path green under and near the canning bridge.

This spot always freaks me out, it is blind and there is nowhere to go if someone drifts onto the wrong side. I have seen many riders go through here to fast and straight line the corners.

The green paint does hieghten awareness, I think those dome mirrors may be a good addition each side of the bridge.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby SNAKE ® » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:52 pm

softy wrote:I noticed also they have painted the path green under and near the canning bridge.

This spot always freaks me out, it is blind and there is nowhere to go if someone drifts onto the wrong side. I have seen many riders go through here to fast and straight line the corners.

The green paint does hieghten awareness, I think those dome mirrors may be a good addition each side of the bridge.


I ride through there twice a day and agree the green surface is a vast improvement from the previous.

Regarding the issue of police 'policing' speeding bikes. I had a chat to a snr constable last week in court about this very issue and he said there will never be a police presence on a PSP unless there are a large number of serious crashes or issues brought to their attention. It is not illegal for a pushy cyclist to cycle at any speed. However, if the bike is motorised by any form then this can render a fine / prosecution. ONLY if they are reported first. The police want safe PSPs for all users - pedestrians to cyclists, and call upon the public to report cycle 'hooning' (I cant believe I just used that word) The more reports - such as time/location, the more you will expect to see these rogue maniacs caught. If you have a motorised bike and ride safely then you will have absolutely nothing to worry about.
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby mikedufty » Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:37 pm

Saw a full size off-road motorbike on the path in como last night about 6:25, no lights but plenty of two stroke noise for warning.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby gsxrboy » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:29 pm

mikedufty wrote:Saw a full size off-road motorbike on the path in como last night about 6:25, no lights but plenty of two stroke noise for warning.


Red (or faded orange) bike with pilot in black helmet and dumb arse pillion helmetless?

Those two are around Riverton a few times this week in the arvo and once at 5.30am.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby softy » Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:42 pm

To be really honest,

I don't think we will see police worrying about push bikes to much.

Many bikes are illegal, I have seen riders with no helmets ride by police on the footpath and they are not bothered. Police don't even care about motor vehicle accidents unless someone is seriously injured, so what is the chance of police doing something about semi powered or human powered bikes

Many pushbikes ride on the footpath, illegal, do the police care, no.

Good luck if you think the police will be interested in pushbikes or ebikes, and dishing out fines or prosecuting.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby SNAKE ® » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:14 pm

softy wrote:To be really honest,

I don't think we will see police worrying about push bikes to much.

Many bikes are illegal, I have seen riders with no helmets ride by police on the footpath and they are not bothered. Police don't even care about motor vehicle accidents unless someone is seriously injured, so what is the chance of police doing something about semi powered or human powered bikes

Many pushbikes ride on the footpath, illegal, do the police care, no.

Good luck if you think the police will be interested in pushbikes or ebikes, and dishing out fines or prosecuting.


Very true.
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby giantdefy » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:18 pm

I personally like the e-bikes, and i would liek to see the regulations around them reduced.

I dont think we should call for greater nanny state issues, as long as the ebike has the look and similar weight to a bicycle.

If people are cycling dangerously, its a matter of community engagement and warning people in awareness campaigns.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:43 am

Aushiker wrote:
SNAKE ® wrote:I have to make a generalisation (and Im sorry if im wrong) but I am yet to see anyone on an E-bike, show any courtesy or respect to other cyclists on the PSP. They never use their arms to indicate, or sit behind a group where there is no room to overtake.


'...

As to the arm signalling, when I see every non-e-bike rider doing it I will give you some credibility, but until then I call you on that.

Also I suggest you need to take off your blinkers with respect to the behaviour of non-e-bike riders ... some individuals can be as worse if not worse as these forums show and I have personally experienced on both my e-bike and non-e-bike.

Andrew


My first thought when I saw the post. On paths pretty much no-one signals. Ditto bells. So singling out e-bikers just gives me cause to question your assessment in other respects when it comes to e-bikes. (We all have our bug-bears. :) )

I THINK I see a greater reluctance by e-bikers to slow down when they should, electing to pass dangerously. But there are many others who do the same thing. And I can't put a measure on it and it may be, as Aushiker suggests, confirmation bias. We are all subject to it.
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby SNAKE ® » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:29 pm

Anyone see the Today Tonight segment on TV last night.
Many recreational pensioners doing 31kmhr on the PSP being targeted as reckless riders endangering other users on the PSP.
The entire report was ridiculous.

The police were given reports of speeding e-bike riders doing 50-80kmhr on the PSP so the media present a segment targeting retired recreational pushes and commuters doing 30-40kmhr.
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby softy » Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:38 pm

SNAKE ® wrote:Anyone see the Today Tonight segment on TV last night.
Many recreational pensioners doing 31kmhr on the PSP being targeted as reckless riders endangering other users on the PSP.
The entire report was ridiculous.

The police were given reports of speeding e-bike riders doing 50-80kmhr on the PSP so the media present a segment targeting retired recreational pushes and commuters doing 30-40kmhr.


I think referring to 31km as fast is pretty ridiculous, most rider are doing between 25 and 35km 80%. Above 35km is getting fast but this is usually only on downhill sections or where you can pick up a good tail wind.

I have a road bike and ebike, my top speed is slightly higher down hills and with strong tailwinds on my roadie. Where my ebike wins is on climbs, i can maintain a higher speed up and over the crest. So really what people are saying here is a bit of rubbish. Yes people can make homemade monsters but this is or ready illegal.

I saw a full blown motorcross bike doing about 80km (whatever it was it was very fast) going south on the kwinana PSP just south of the Murdoch train station. Now if that motorbike was doing 40km i probably wouldn't of thought to much about it. Which just goes to show it is the rider not the vehicle.

things i see that are illegal
riding two abreast on PSP
groups more than two abreast
groups doing more than 40km and two abreast
No bells
no lights (at night)
No brakes
no reflectors
no helmets
riding on footpaths
riding on the wrong side of the road

all of the above could be considered dangerous and illegal.
and if so many are doing this why just pick on ebike riders?

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby SNAKE ® » Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:21 pm

Just want to make it clear neither myself or the news article were picking on e-bikes.
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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby softy » Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:27 pm

SNAKE ® wrote:Just want to make it clear neither myself or the news article were picking on e-bikes.


My apologies,
the posting of your quotes was regarding the 31km.

i then drifted on the general subject and comments thoughout the thread. So it was only the very first paragraph that related/responded to your post.

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Re: Dangerously fast powered bikes on PSPs

Postby SNAKE ® » Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:33 pm

The news reporter was saying 31kmhr was dangerous and were using pensioners as culprits. Hence why the report was a joke.
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