No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

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Cycleops70
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No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:16 pm

Has anyone noticed that Mainroads have placed 'no bicycle' signs on Reid Hwy as it crosses the freeway?

I'd contacted Mainroad for a response (still working on that, it has been escalated 3 times).

At first I thought it was referring to the entry to the freeway coming from the east.

However the sign does not indicate just those lanes.

You can't see the sign from the east until you have crossed the junction & at that point there is no alternative but to carry on (no access to the shared path on the north side of the bridge).

Then the other day I noticed there was also a 'no bikes' sign coming from the West.
At the same time a cyclist entered from Duffy Rd & continued across the bridge having bypassed both signs & unaware there is any restriction.

I can't understand why these have been erected. This bridge is no different than any other that crosses the freeway. 70Kph, 2 lanes. Same as beach road to the north & Karrinyup Rd to the south.

Thoughts?

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rolandp
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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby rolandp » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:52 pm

My guess, as there is now two lanes to access the freeway north (the new bit where you do a big circle left to head north), the cyclist will have to be in the second or third Lane, with cars doing 70kph. Can't recall the South entrance, as it used to be one Lane, it may now be two.

This however is resolved in the Marmion Ave works just occuring in the next suburb where cars are doing 80kph, they will be installing a cycle Lane at these intersections.

It then needs to be questioned why there isn't consistency in the two projects being worked on in the last 12 months as Reid Hway I don't believe has cycle lanes on the freeway overpass.

Just a quess, and would love to hear mrwa response.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby dmwill » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:43 pm

rolandp wrote:My guess, as there is now two lanes to access the freeway north (the new bit where you do a big circle left to head north), the cyclist will have to be in the second or third Lane, with cars doing 70kph. Can't recall the South entrance, as it used to be one Lane, it may now be two.



My thoughts as well. Two turning lanes onto freeway on ramp, two going straight. As a cyclist, you would be right in the middle of it all. Even if there was allowance for cyclists in the middle with a green lane it would be pretty sketchy with Perth drivers.

Still annoying having to cross over to the path, then cross back again. Agree there should be more consistency (particularly if heading west). Perhaps the west bound shoulder should have diverted to a cycle only over pass to the southern side of the overpass.

It's just occurred to me that there are not many east-west roads in the northern suburbs that offer a safe route. Sure some sections have a decent shoulder or the likes, but there is a fair bit of inconsistency.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Mububban » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:56 pm

dmwill wrote:It's just occurred to me that there are not many east-west roads in the northern suburbs that offer a safe route. Sure some sections have a decent shoulder or the likes, but there is a fair bit of inconsistency.


I live NoR and drive east on Reid Highway to see my parents regularly, I've been considering riding it but I'm wondering if that would be a risky proposition on a bike? Especially as the majority is 90kph?
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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby as7431 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:40 pm

I have been known to ignore said signs. Going East - the sign makes absolutely no sense (although there is the path just the other side of the railing if you wish). Going west, I do see that it is perhaps not a great idea and is best done with some assertiveness. There are 2 lanes turning left (to head north on Mitchell Fwy) and 2 straight ahead. I am yet to see more traffic than would fit in one lane for either option. I normally sit in the left hand straight ahead lane (but make sure you get there early before the left turn lane(s) appear.

I have never done this at peak hour however.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Thoglette » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:37 pm

Cycleops70 wrote:Has anyone noticed that Mainroads have placed 'no bicycle' signs on Reid Hwy as it crosses the freeway?


That's a monumental ****-up and they need to fix it.
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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:30 pm

Thoglette wrote:
Cycleops70 wrote:Has anyone noticed that Mainroads have placed 'no bicycle' signs on Reid Hwy as it crosses the freeway?


That's a monumental ****-up and they need to fix it.


I agree, & if I ever get a response from MR I will be asking for the signs to be removed.

While I understand the concerns mentioned above (feeling exposed riding in the 3rd lane), there are many similar scenarios across Perth without resorting to excluding any road user groups.

I'm not sure I'd be too keen to ride across there during peak times, but on a Sunday morning, no problem. You could always use the left shoulder & cross further up.

There are no issues heading east at all. There is a shoulder all the way through.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:37 pm

Mububban wrote:
dmwill wrote:It's just occurred to me that there are not many east-west roads in the northern suburbs that offer a safe route. Sure some sections have a decent shoulder or the likes, but there is a fair bit of inconsistency.


I live NoR and drive east on Reid Highway to see my parents regularly, I've been considering riding it but I'm wondering if that would be a risky proposition on a bike? Especially as the majority is 90kph?


The 90kph sections have a wide shoulder & crossing points at slip roads. Although it's not a very pleasant environment to ride in & a lot a debris in the shoulder.

It drops to 70kph at from Erindale rd.

I wouldn't feel unsafe riding it, it just wouldn't be very enjoyable.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Thoglette » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:25 pm

Cycleops70 wrote:While I understand the concerns mentioned above (feeling exposed riding in the 3rd lane), there are many similar scenarios across Perth without resorting to excluding any road user groups.


And normally there's a quid pro quo - e.g. the PSP is the price paid to exclude cyclists from the freeway.

Cycleops70 wrote:I wouldn't feel unsafe riding it, it just wouldn't be very enjoyable.

I've ridden the length from the coast to the river a number of times. "Mostly harmless" and you can keep up a good pace.

You do need to keep your eyes open for the rubbish.
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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby wellington_street » Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:48 pm

Cycleops70 wrote:
Thoglette wrote:
Cycleops70 wrote:Has anyone noticed that Mainroads have placed 'no bicycle' signs on Reid Hwy as it crosses the freeway?


That's a monumental ****-up and they need to fix it.


I agree, & if I ever get a response from MR I will be asking for the signs to be removed.

While I understand the concerns mentioned above (feeling exposed riding in the 3rd lane), there are many similar scenarios across Perth without resorting to excluding any road user groups.

I'm not sure I'd be too keen to ride across there during peak times, but on a Sunday morning, no problem. You could always use the left shoulder & cross further up.

There are no issues heading east at all. There is a shoulder all the way through.


The stupid thing is that to access the shared path on the north side you actually need to cross into the right turn lane and turn right with traffic that is heading for Freeway South. So there is no difference in safety for the alternative?

Just another example of Main Roads not giving an expletive about a legitimate road user group. I am glad you have followed this up with them as if nobody complains they will keep doing it.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:19 pm

wellington_street wrote:Just another example of Main Roads not giving an expletive about a legitimate road user group. I am glad you have followed this up with them as if nobody complains they will keep doing it.


So far I have been ignored (3 emails via their customer service people).
I'd be very happy if there were a few more enquiries. I think they are hoping I'll just give up.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby wellington_street » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:05 pm

Cycleops70 wrote:
wellington_street wrote:Just another example of Main Roads not giving an expletive about a legitimate road user group. I am glad you have followed this up with them as if nobody complains they will keep doing it.


So far I have been ignored (3 emails via their customer service people).
I'd be very happy if there were a few more enquiries. I think they are hoping I'll just give up.

Next step is write to the Minister and cite that Main Roads have not met their owner Customer Service Charter requirement to respond within 10 working days?

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Thoglette » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:14 pm

Having had an "ask around" apparently MRD plans to turn Reid Hwy into a freeway. Which would require a full-blown PSP for bicycles.

However the cycle ban remains premature (by a decade or so) and, frankly, there should be no new freeways until MRD completes the PSP on the existing one - in particular the section between Karrinyup road and Powis St, including grade separation at Hutton St.

In summary, MRD is continuing to thumb it's nose at non-motorised road users.
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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby wellington_street » Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:23 pm

Thoglette wrote:Having had an "ask around" apparently MRD plans to turn Reid Hwy into a freeway. Which would require a full-blown PSP for bicycles.

However the cycle ban remains premature (by a decade or so) and, frankly, there should be no new freeways until MRD completes the PSP on the existing one - in particular the section between Karrinyup road and Powis St, including grade separation at Hutton St.

In summary, MRD is continuing to thumb it's nose at non-motorised road users.


I think I said in another thread, it was a real missed opportunity not putting in a proper grade-separated PSP when the 3 overpasses for road traffic were done.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:51 pm

Finally got a response,

But it makes no sense to me.

Thank you for contacting Department of Transport and Main Roads with regards Reid Highway across Mitchell Freeway.

I am sorry to hear of your experience with regards responding to your enquiries and can confirm that back in June and July your enquiry appears to have been sent to the construction team responsible for the recent upgrade of Reid Highway. It appears that this was the same time as this team was disbanding due to the completion of the work and your email may not have been answered in the desired time period.

I have only just received your email and will endeavour to answer your query.

I can confirm that there is an intention to move bicycle riders from Reid Highway onto the adjacent PSP to the east of the Mitchell Freeway.

As you may be aware there is a future change to the Reid Highway between the Mitchell Freeway and Tonkin Highway to have a high speed freeway standard road. Further details are available through the Main Roads website at the following link,
https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/Buildin ... s/RHD.aspx.

Recent changes at Malaga Drive and to a lesser extent at the Mitchell Freeway have been progressing this improvement. As part of the improvement bicycle riders will be removed from Reid Highway due to the increase in traffic speed and the nature of the on and off ramps.

The major project that is upgrading Tonkin Highway, called Northlink WA, will also create a freeway standard interchange at Tonkin Highway and Reid Highway which will require bicycle riders to be removed from the road. Further information is available at the following link, https://project.mainroads.wa.gov.au/nor ... fault.aspx.

At present on Reid Highway when crossing Mitchell Freeway bicycles have been removed in both directions. The addition of a double left turn onto the northbound Mitchell Freeway from heading west along Reid Highway has created an environment that is difficult for bicycle riders and therefore safer to have riders use the PSP. The same is true for eastbound riders although not all the Reid Highway upgrades have been completed yet so it may be harder to understand the rationale for eastbound riders to come off the road.

I trust that this answers your query but if you have any further comments or questions please don't hesitate to contact Main Roads.

Yours sincerely,

Edward


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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby wellington_street » Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:38 pm

You should respond and ask how bicycle riders are meant to safely get from the westbound shoulder to the PSP?

And put forward an opinion that until such time as the PSP is fully complete, bicycle riders should not be prohibited from riding on Reid Highway, including at the freeway bridge.

I'd also ask for copies of the Road Safety Audits undertaken for the project.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby rolandp » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:48 pm

If Reid Hway is to become a 'freeway', why were cycle lanes installed at the new bridges over Alexander Dr, Mirrabooka Ave, and though I haven't ridden on it since it opened earlier this year, Malaga Dr I also think has cycle lanes. My definition of a cycle Lane is one marked with bicyle symbol which these have.

There are plenty of gaps in the shared path next to Reid Hway, which I've never ridden on, but notice it seems to be a lot more hills - bit like the Mitchell Fway PSP where the freeway is nice and flat, but as a cyclist we have to put additional human movement to get up the original layout of the land.

Have you considered passing this onto BWA and WestCycle for their opinion?

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:59 pm

rolandp wrote:If Reid Hway is to become a 'freeway', why were cycle lanes installed at the new bridges over Alexander Dr, Mirrabooka Ave, and though I haven't ridden on it since it opened earlier this year, Malaga Dr I also think has cycle lanes.

Have you considered passing this onto BWA and WestCycle for their opinion?


Bicycles are directed to exit at Malaga & re-join at the on ramp.
I don't think you can ride across the junction, so you have to dismount & use the ped crossing.
All other overpasses have crossing points at the on/off ramps.

I've questioned why that is in my reply.

I'll see what reply I get, & consider contacting BWA/Westcycle.
I considered my next step (I doubt main roads will back down) would be the minister.

I'm not a member of either. Are they likely to be interested?

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Thoglette » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:46 am

rolandp wrote:BWA and WestCycle for their opinion?

BWA are aware but are "softly softly" . IE don't hold your breath. It's not part of their core business.

As for westcycle. I've no comments for polite company
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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:28 pm

So I tried to ride the route west across the bridge yesterday. Having to cross 3 lanes to the right turning lane (heading towards the freeway south on ramp) to access the PSP on the north side.

Getting myself a punishment pass from a driver with a MGIF need to a red light in the process (we were the only two vehicles on the road).

There were no signs to tell you how to continue through to join Reid Hwy again.

Entering again just west of Duffy Rd via a ped/bike crossing (with the button push on the wrong side of the path).

I then tried the return journey headed east, entering from Duffy Rd, bypassing the 'no bikes' sign. Which kind of makes them redundant.

I got passed by a police car, & they didn't pull me over.

I followed Reid all the way through to Malaga Dr, where you have to use the off/on ramps.
You can't go straight ahead. Instead you have to do a loop under the bridge using the controlled crossings (which weren't working) only to find that bikes are not allowed back onto Reid on the on ramp.
Having to take a 5.3 km detour around Marshall Rd.

I'm not sure why, as there is a wide shoulder through to where it splits at Tonkin, just as there is in the opposite direction where bikes are not excluded.

Again, it looks like bikes have been excluded before the alternative infrastructure has been completed.

I've responded to Mainroads with some additional questions around this.
I'm not confident their "Vulnerable Road Users" will reply though.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby wellington_street » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:39 pm

Cycleops70 wrote:I'm not sure why, as there is a wide shoulder through to where it splits at Tonkin, just as there is in the opposite direction where bikes are not excluded.

Again, it looks like bikes have been excluded before the alternative infrastructure has been completed.

I assume this is due to Northlink works - just like though Gateway we were sent on long detours before the PSP was built.

Cycleops70 wrote:I've responded to Mainroads with some additional questions around this.
I'm not confident their "Vulnerable Road Users" will reply though.

To be fair to Edward Rose, he is near the bottom of the tree, being stuck defending decisions made well above him that he probably completely disagrees with. If you aren't happy with the response, write to the Minister - Ministerial correspondence is given more weight at Main Roads than general correspondence, particularly if the Minister is sympathetic to the cause.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:04 pm

wellington_street wrote:To be fair to Edward Rose, he is near the bottom of the tree, being stuck defending decisions made well above him that he probably completely disagrees with. If you aren't happy with the response, write to the Minister - Ministerial correspondence is given more weight at Main Roads than general correspondence, particularly if the Minister is sympathetic to the cause.


Yeah I get that, but I thought it only right that I give them the opportunity to respond before I go to the minister.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:05 pm

I finally received a reply from my further questioning.
It's doesn't answer my really question of why the exclusion was introduced ahead of replacement infrastructure, & when that may happen.
Not sure where to go with this.
It looks like the only thing it has prompted is better placement & more 'no bikes' signs.
A little counter productive.

Dear XX,

Thank you for adding to your earlier response.

I will address each of your points, I have numbered your original response below and my answers refer to those original responses.

1) The decision to exclude bicycle traffic from Reid Highway (Mitchell Freeway to Tonkin Highway) has not been fully implemented yet. However the road layout when heading westbound across the Mitchell Freeway is somewhat different to most other locations and is different to your example of Ocean Reef Road and Wanneroo Road. The two left lanes onto the Mitchell Freeway are free flow left turns and they are not formed as a left turn pocket. Bicycle traffic would not have an opportunity to ride to the right hand side of the two left turn lanes before they are formed as the lanes continue from east of the traffic signals. Ocean Reef Road has two left turn lanes form as a left turn pocket with bicycle traffic able to use the sealed shoulder / bicycle lane without needing to cross any lanes. You may find at 545am on a Sunday that motor traffic is light but during the day fast moving traffic will be turning left and bicycle riders will find it difficult to change across two lanes to continue west along Reid Highway.

2) Bicycle connections were not provided at the on and off ramps at Malaga Drive as this interchange was built to reflect the future road provision. Previously Mirrabooka Ave and Alexander Drive were built with bicycle provision on the on and off ramps as at the time future developments were a long way off and it was not clear when or even if improvements to Reid Hwy and Tonkin Hwy interchange would occur. It is now clear that the interchange of Reid Hwy and Tonkin Hwy is going ahead and Reid Hwy will become a freeway standard road.

3) As mentioned above the westbound route across Mitchell Freeway is different to many other locations and does, especially during busy times, present a more difficult location for bicycle riders to navigate. I agree that the location of the No Bicycles signs are not as they should be and this issue is being investigated and addressed. The no bicycles signs should have been located at Erindale Road intersection to allow riders to cross Reid Highway and use the PSP on the northern side.
Heading east and coming from Duffy Road bicycle riders should be directed to leave the road and use the crossing to gain access to the PSP. Again the existing signage location and layout does create the ambiguity that riders travelling eastbound along Reid Hwy are directed to leave the road whilst those turning from Duffy Road do not pass the no bicycles sign. This will be rectified. There is an existing section of PSP along the northern side of Reid Hwy from the Mitchell Freeway to Erindale Road.

Additional points raised in your email from 6 November.

4) As already mentioned above the Malaga Drive interchange has been built in advance of the Tonkin Hwy and Reid Hwy interchange upgrade that is currently being constructed in stages, described as Northlink WA. It is likely in the near future that lanes will become narrower on this section of Reid Hwy to accommodate the upgrade works and bicycles would be removed anyway. Alternative temporary routes and new PSP paths will be provided as part of these works.
5) The signing regime on Reid Hwy is being reviewed to ensure it is consistent with regards the no bicycles signs.
6) The apparent lack of working operation of the pedestrian / bicycle push buttons when crossing Reid Highway westbound on ramp at Malaga Drive has been reported as a fault.

I trust that this answers your query although it may not be the answer you were looking for. If you have further comments or questions please don’t hesitate to contact Main Roads.

Yours sincerely,

Edward


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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby dmwill » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:40 am

They now have 'no bikes' signs at the on ramp from Wanneroo Road to Reid Hwy west bound (ironically they still have the bicycle markings on the shoulders as you progress to Errindale Rd).

They must have been put up in the past week...coincidence?

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby alh9a5 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:30 pm

This whole area now makes no sense and has done for sometime. I used to ride down Reid Hwy to the freeway PSP to get a few extra kms in before work. The Erindale rd intersection needs to be redone to allow cyclists to actually get over the PSP that runs from Erindale to the freeway, as currently the medium comes out too far to ride around so the only option is walking the bike across in between light changes which takes forever.

Its a shame they are restricting Reid Hwy now, was always my go to route to get to the West Swan area and I never had any issues riding along there as the shoulder is plenty wide enough. Just the occasional email to main roads to get it swept, which was always done promptly. I sent some emails to Main Roads a while back letting them know that they are now forcing cyclists down Benara road to get the the West Swan area, which has no shoulder and is far less safe than the section of Reid they have closed to cyclists.

Response back after several weeks was long story short 'we don't care.'

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