No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

dmwill
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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby dmwill » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:53 pm

More thought should have gone into a continual cycle path when they put in all the other overpasses in given they want to make it a freeway in the future.

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Cycleops70
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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:52 pm

dmwill wrote:They now have 'no bikes' signs at the on ramp from Wanneroo Road to Reid Hwy west bound (ironically they still have the bicycle markings on the shoulders as you progress to Errindale Rd).

They must have been put up in the past week...coincidence?


He indicated they would extend the exclusion (heading west) to Erindale road. It seems they may have gone a bit further.
I don't think you're forced to exit, so You could just bypass the sign under Wanneroo.
I don't think they know what they are doing?

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:55 pm

dmwill wrote:More thought should have gone into a continual cycle path when they put in all the other overpasses in given they want to make it a freeway in the future.


I totally agree. It's a bit like building a brand new public building, then banning access for people in wheelchairs because you plan to construct a ramp in ten years time.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:31 pm

I'm still going with this.

Response from Minister;


Image

And my response;

Thank you for your response,

Unfortunately it does not answer my questions.

You are correct in saying that Reid Hwy is NOT currently freeway standard. My question is, why have you allowed Mainroads to exclude bicycles on (some) of Reid Hwy prematurely. And when are appropriate alternatives going to be completed?

With regard to accessing alternative infrastructure at Erindale, to do this a rider must cross 3 lanes of traffic to turn right, and then enter via the pedestrian crossing or against traffic from the opposite left turning lane.
Why was this considered a safer option than continuing straight ahead?
This alternative route is also not signposted. It would appear this designated route is only knowledge to riders heading west, if they are to write to the minister for transport.

There is also no signage anywhere along this alternative route. There are 2 changes in direction to continue west, neither of these are signposted.

I had also written to Mainroads to ask if there was a safety assessment completed prior to the exclusion, & if I could request a copy. I did not receive a reply regarding this.
Since you reference an independent safety audit, I would again like to request a copy.

The current signage of 'no bicycle' signs are not placed to create a consistent excluded area. Riders can access this intended exclusion without passing any restriction signs. Such as Duffy Rd & Erindale Rd.

At the very least, can I request that Mainroads amend this signage & adequately sign a safe alternative route. A route that does not require a rider to cross 3 lanes of traffic.

Regards,

alh9a5
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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby alh9a5 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:58 pm

Great response Cycleops70.

All seems very adhoc and reactive to me as far as the Government is concerned.

Does anybody know of plans to extend the PSP from Malaga Drive up to the Reid / Tonkin Hwy interchange? I've been looking and don't remember the "Northern Link" (Reid & Tonkin hwy) mentioning this, though it does discuss the new path that will run along Tonkin?

Perhaps another oversight, forgetting to actually link those two paths together.

Ps. Would have been a great morning to be running west on Reid Hwy with that North Easterly that was howling this morning :lol:

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby enduro2 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:03 pm

Thanks for working on this Cycleops70. I do hope we get a more navigable route east west along Reid Hwy as I would very much like to utilise it. I live close to the western start point of Reid and have been wanting to investigate it as an early morning weekend +50Km ride. Tarmac road shoulders would be most appealing, but from what I've seen there is glass and debris there that would make the ride a little less inviting.

Looking at Google Earth today, the PSP's do look very disjointed and feature regular crossings of Reid intersections and the odd overpass. Combined with the inadequate signage it may be a slow trip for riders.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:59 pm

Thanks folks,

If you could spend a few minutes to write to the minister, it would give this issue much more weight, and not just a single vexatious complainant.

I've seen shared path along side Reid hwy here & there, but have no idea how to get to them, or join them up to make a continuous route. So I guess very disjointed.

Perhaps that could be my next challenge, to attempt to use this "alternative infrastructure" to follow a parallel route to the hwy. as the minister seems to think this is already available & adequate.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby dmwill » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:47 pm

Higher operating speeds?

Pretty sure they've dropped the speed limit by 10km/h west of the freeway since all the changes.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby enduro2 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:53 am

enduro2 wrote:Thanks for working on this Cycleops70. I do hope we get a more navigable route east west along Reid Hwy as I would very much like to utilise it. I live close to the western start point of Reid and have been wanting to investigate it as an early morning weekend +50Km ride. Tarmac road shoulders would be most appealing, but from what I've seen there is glass and debris there that would make the ride a little less inviting.

Looking at Google Earth today, the PSP's do look very disjointed and feature regular crossings of Reid intersections and the odd overpass. Combined with the inadequate signage it may be a slow trip for riders.



I plan to do Reid over the next week or so and will definitely consider a letter regarding the disjointed and unavigable route.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:44 am

This is what I've worked out so far for an off road route.

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/18176860#metrics

For the first part it's side streets, then some shared path (crossing sides) then diversion around Malaga.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Scott_C » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:57 am

enduro2 wrote:I plan to do Reid over the next week or so and will definitely consider a letter regarding the disjointed and unavigable route.

If you do ride the paths also take note of any road crossings at traffic lights that don't have bicycle lanterns or that have marked pedestrian crossings across the slip-lanes.

MainRoads loves to provide "bicycle" infrastructure that is illegal to use without dismounting.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Sinner » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:07 pm

dmwill wrote:Higher operating speeds?

Pretty sure they've dropped the speed limit by 10km/h west of the freeway since all the changes.


I think it always has been 70 kph. However, the average speed of vehicles is probably over 80 kph, as this is nearer "freeway standard".

The whole length is inconsistent both for motor vehicles and cyclists. It'll probably need a consultant appointed to spend tens of thousands of dollars to tell them how to put it right!

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby wellington_street » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:21 pm

Anyone writing to the Minister - please make sure you reference the three (!) overpasses on Reid Highway built in the last 4-5 years with no corresponding PSP overpass. And ask when these will be provided.

Even if the rest of the route was continuous, all the traffic light crossings (and the grades to go down and up) make the trip a lot slower and more effort than using the shoulders.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:24 pm

Scott_C wrote:
enduro2 wrote:I plan to do Reid over the next week or so and will definitely consider a letter regarding the disjointed and unavigable route.

If you do ride the paths also take note of any road crossings at traffic lights that don't have bicycle lanterns or that have marked pedestrian crossings across the slip-lanes.

MainRoads loves to provide "bicycle" infrastructure that is illegal to use without dismounting.


There will be quite a few points where you'll have to get off & walk across.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby enduro2 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:46 pm

Cycleops70 wrote:
Scott_C wrote:
enduro2 wrote:I plan to do Reid over the next week or so and will definitely consider a letter regarding the disjointed and unavigable route.

If you do ride the paths also take note of any road crossings at traffic lights that don't have bicycle lanterns or that have marked pedestrian crossings across the slip-lanes.

MainRoads loves to provide "bicycle" infrastructure that is illegal to use without dismounting.


There will be quite a few points where you'll have to get off & walk across.


I normally leave home at 5am for a ride in summer so don't plan to get off the bike unless it's unsafe to cross otherwise. Riding back from the Swan River crossover from 6-7am may be a different story though.

If Reid becomes unappealing I still have the ride from Scarb to Burns or Scarb to Freo. I'll only have to deal with a side on easterly at that time of the morning. Over the last week that's been pretty strong! Winter may be cold, but there isn't much wind about at 5am.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Sinner » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:42 am

Main Roads do seem to have one or two UK-style slip roads where there are cycle crossings for those who don't want to cycle across entering/exiting traffic. The UK also has "freeway" type roads (non motorway) with 113 kph speed limits that permit cyclists. There's fairly extensive use of "Vibroline" (raised rib edge lines) to encourage drivers to stay in their lane and assists in making the hard strip safer to cycle on.

Perhaps it's just more dangerous now than when I cycled on the A38 in Devon or the A52 between Derby and Nottingham!

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:13 am

So I got round to riding the off road alternative (turns out there's quite a lot of on road via side streets).

Lots of dismount points, steep gradients, waiting about at traffic lights, & diversions.

The minister's suggested access to the shared path heading west is not possible, as Mainroads has extended the bike exclusion to Wanneroo Rd. So you can't get to Erindale (as was advised).
Kind of pointless too, as you can access Reid from Erindale in either direction, because they forgot to erect "no bicycles" signs there.

What an absolute mess.

Anyway, this was my effort. I've cut it down, but it's still 11mins long;
https://youtu.be/CrZikcKPpOg

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Scott_C » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:12 pm

Cycleops70 wrote:Anyway, this was my effort. I've cut it down, but it's still 11mins long; https://youtu.be/CrZikcKPpOg

Good effort and great example of the uselessness of painting pedestrian crossings across the slip lanes on a cycling route. They force cyclists to dismount and then the drivers ignore the pedestrian crossing and blow through it at speed anyway.

I will note that, despite what looked like a considerable effort to keep things legal, you didn't quite make it there. As far as I could tell, each time you crossed a separated carriageway the pedestrian/cyclist lights went to flashing red before you passed over the centre island. According to the WA Road Rules Reg 197 3a if the light starts flashing red you can't proceed beyond the centre island. Instead you need to stop and wait until the pedestrian/bike crossing goes green again or, if there are no buttons on the centre island, until the circular traffic signal facing you goes green and it is safe to cross.

To be fully legal in your use of the crossings you probably needed to wait another full traffic light cycle at each of the separated carriageway crossings (hey it will only add another 10 minutes or so to the trip, why should that bother you when using "freeway grade" infrastructure).

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:27 pm

Scott_C wrote:
Cycleops70 wrote:Anyway, this was my effort. I've cut it down, but it's still 11mins long; https://youtu.be/CrZikcKPpOg

Good effort and great example of the uselessness of painting pedestrian crossings across the slip lanes on a cycling route. They force cyclists to dismount and then the drivers ignore the pedestrian crossing and blow through it at speed anyway.

I will note that, despite what looked like a considerable effort to keep things legal, you didn't quite make it there. As far as I could tell, each time you crossed a separated carriageway the pedestrian/cyclist lights went to flashing red before you passed over the centre island. According to the WA Road Rules Reg 197 3a if the light starts flashing red you can't proceed beyond the centre island. Instead you need to stop and wait until the pedestrian/bike crossing goes green again or, if there are no buttons on the centre island, until the circular traffic signal facing you goes green and it is safe to cross.

To be fully legal in your use of the crossings you probably needed to wait another full traffic light cycle at each of the separated carriageway crossings (hey it will only add another 10 minutes or so to the trip, why should that bother you when using "freeway grade" infrastructure).


I'm not sure how that would work. I would have to run to get beyond the centre before it started flashing. And if I did stop half way, then I would be stuck there until the next person came along, as the lights don't change with the rest of the sequence. You need to press the button (which is at either end).

I might still be there now!

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Wixxy » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:41 pm

I've noticed recently the buttons only allow you to get to the island, so am guessing like othes that you have to wait for the next auto cycle of the lights.

Am not sure that waiting for a circular green is legal as the pedestrian light will still be red.

Am I right in thinking you can use Reid from Roe Highway to Malaga and get back on at Wanneroo until you reach the other end?

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:00 pm

Wixxy wrote:Am I right in thinking you can use Reid from Roe Highway to Malaga and get back on at Wanneroo until you reach the other end?


Heading west you can continue along Reid where it intersects with Tonkin (but you can't use the same section of Reid going in the opposite direction. I can't work that out).

You have to exit at Malaga, but can rejoin at Alexander.

Then exit again at Wanneroo & rejoin after Duffy Rd (although you can enter in between that from Erindale heading in either direction).

I did do the westward route, maybe I'll edit & post that up too.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Wixxy » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:29 am

So in summary it's 2 sections of Reid that ban cycles but only in one direction on each? Least that's how am seeing it.

Have they erased the cycle lane lines up to the lights at these junctions to indicate the changes?

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:50 pm

Wixxy wrote:So in summary it's 2 sections of Reid that ban cycles but only in one direction on each? Least that's how am seeing it.

Have they erased the cycle lane lines up to the lights at these junctions to indicate the changes?


It's a bit messy, but I'll see if I can get this right;

There are bans in place heading east between Malaga & Tonkin intersection, but not heading west

Between Malaga & Alexander heading west, but not heading east

In both directions between Wanneroo & Duffy Rd (west of the freeway). However there is nothing to stop you entering in the middle of that exclustion at Erindale in either direction.

If you did enter at Erindale, you would meet 'no bicycle' signs once you reach Wanneroo, or the freeway overpass.

I'll put up the west route video shortly.

Edit; When I've driven this route, I can still see bike symbols painted in the shoulder of the excluded sections.

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:19 am

This is the route heading west.
Continuing through the intersection of Tonkin (can't ride this section heading east).
Exiting Malaga
Rejoining at Alexanda, & exiting at Wanneroo.
Finally rejoining at Duffy Rd.

https://youtu.be/Z_O7t9G8_W8

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Re: No bicycles on Freeway overpass Reid Hwy

Postby Cycleops70 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:40 pm

Image

This is the best visual representation I can make of the whole thing.

There are some sections where you can jump of the shared path route on to Reid & bypass the 'no bikes' signs, but that's getting a bit too detailed.

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