Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Wixxy
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Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Wixxy » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:19 pm

Hi.

From Ellenbrook coming up to the Alexander Dr intersection on Gnangara Rd is a All Bicycles left arrow sign, just before the left turning lane.

Is this asking you not to continue along Gnangara any further? Are you being asked to use the footpath on the other side to travel forward - to get there is a pedestrian foot crossing where you would have to cycle from a left slip lane on to an island first?

It makes no sense, can anyone else? Am baffled.
Last edited by Wixxy on Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rolandp
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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby rolandp » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:26 am

I have a theory. When there is a no stopping left turn lane which there is from Alex. Drive into Gnangara Rd, this will put the cyclist in the middle of three lanes when they get past the lights when travelling west on Gnangara Rd. So, they direct you off the road before/at the lights.

Or, it is a left over sign when the road works were occuring to make this section dual lanes.

Report to MainRoads requesting an explanation why the sign is there.

Wixxy
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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Wixxy » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:27 am

Hi.

No the sign is on Gnangara Rd as you approach the Alexander Dr lights coming from Ellenbrook. There no reason such as a faster speed past the lights on Gnangara to mean no cycles.

It could be from the last phase of the road works as a diversion like you say.

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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Scott_C » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:51 pm

Wixxy wrote:Are you being asked to use the footpath on the other side to travel forward - to get there is a pedestrian foot crossing where you would have to cycle from a left slip lane on to an island first?


I am 95% sure this is the intention of the sign.

Firstly, the G9-60 "All Bicycles" sign is a guidance sign and it is therefore (in my understanding) not compulsory to follow the instructions on the sign (i.e. it doesn't prevent you from remaining on the road if you choose to, they should use a R6-10-3 "No Bicycles" sign or R6-13 "No pedestrians, bicycles, animals beyond this point" sign if they want to enforce a ban on bicycles.)

The nominal purpose of a G9-60 sign is to guide cyclists to an access point where off-road infrastructure starts or where on-road infrastructure stops (or vice-versa). In this case I believe it is being used to direct cyclists on Gnangara road to the start of the shared use path with the intention of using the traffic island as the access point as there doesn't seem to be a defined access point for the path after the lights.

The only other place I know where there is a G9-60 sign is on Great Eastern Highway eastbound on approach to the Tonkin Hwy interchange that directs bikes off the road and on to a shared path where the Great Eastern Highway bike lane ends. I have ridden past it on the road (in a group) numerous times without problem.

Wixxy
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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Wixxy » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:10 pm

Thanks Scott.

I'd agree as well. Just that then to not have cycle lights on the crossing means strictly you have to be dismounted when entering the island.

Am guessing the intention is to dismount on the side of the slip lane and cross by foot to the island as it's an awkward entry in to the island on a bend with possible traffic behind.

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Cycleops70
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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Cycleops70 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:09 pm

I ride through here quite a bit & I just go straight on. But I must admit, I don't recall seeing it, oops!

Scott_C wrote:
Firstly, the G9-60 "All Bicycles" sign is a guidance sign and it is therefore (in my understanding) not compulsory to follow the instructions on the sign (i.e. it doesn't prevent you from remaining on the road if you choose to, they should use a R6-10-3 "No Bicycles" sign or R6-13 "No pedestrians, bicycles, animals beyond this point" sign if they want to enforce a ban on bicycles.)


Interesting. I couldn't find this sign in the road traffic code, & thought that it wasn't enforceable. But there is a section (302 . Variations in traffic signs etc.) that implies that as long as a sign look like a main roads sign, then it is one & should be complied with.

1) A traffic sign is to —

(a) be a reasonable likeness of any representation of that sign in these regulations or the Schedules to these regulations; or

(b) comply substantially with a description of that kind of traffic sign in these regulations.


I hope I'm wrong. What do you think?
Perhaps it just means it needs to be a reasonable likeness of an existing sign (of which the "all bicycles" is not).

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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Scott_C » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 pm

My reading of 302 is that it only applies to signs that are a reasonable likeness of an existing sign as it goes on in some detail in 302(4) what is meant by reasonable likeness and something like (4h), paraphrasing, 'A shared path sign is still a shared path sign if the pedestrian and cyclist symbols are reversed' indicates that it applies with a high degree of specificity to the existing signs in the Code.

301 is of more concern for me when it comes to the applicability of signs not in the road traffic code:
301. Inscriptions on signs to have effect according to their tenor
(1) An inscription on a road sign operates and has effect according to its tenor and a person who contravenes the directions of the inscription on a traffic sign commits an offence.
Modified penalty: 1 PU
(2) Schedule 1 provides the meaning of certain abbreviations and symbols used on road signs.


When a sign says "All Bicycles" it has the tenor of being a compulsory action. The counterpoint to this is the yellow diamond recommended speed signs that are used at traffic calming points and on sharp curves, other than the colour and shape of the sign there is nothing separating the tenor of these signs from a genuine speed limit sign but to the best of my knowledge the yellow signs are not enforceable. I suppose at most they would be enforceable solely under 301 for a $50 fine and 0 demerits.

Edit:
Looking at this in more detail, it is only an offence to contravene the directions of the inscription of a "traffic sign", not a "road sign" which are subject to different definitions in the Code, in particular, a "traffic sign" must be shown in Schedule 2 or 3 of the Code. As the "All Bicycles" sign isn't in Schedule 2 or 3 it isn't a traffic sign and it isn't an offence against the code to ignore it regardless of the tenor of the sign. Similarly for the yellow diamond recommended speed signs.

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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Wixxy » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:18 pm

Interesting points you both raise. I'll go along with the last point on traffic versus road sign and take it as stated.

My first thoughts on seeing it a week ago was it was trying to send me and other cyclists on a detour down Alexander Dr away from Gnangara. Naïve maybe.

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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Cycleops70 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:28 am

I think you are right that the sign is not enforceable in the same way that advisory speed signs are not a speed limit.
Although I'm not confident any passing police wouldn't want to debate it further.

Wixxy wrote:My first thoughts on seeing it a week ago was it was trying to send me and other cyclists on a detour down Alexander Dr away from Gnangara. Naïve maybe.


Call me cynical, but given my experience of Mainroads excluding & diverting bikes away from parts of Reid Hwy after it was upgraded (without first providing adequate alternatives for bikes), I wouldn't put it passed them.
Now that Gnangara Rd has also been upgraded, they could well have that intention.

I will continue to ignore the sign & go straight ahead.

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Cycleops70
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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Cycleops70 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:33 am

Why did Reid turn into a hyperlink?

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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Scott_C » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:47 am

Cycleops70 wrote:Why did Reid turn into a hyperlink?

Because it is the name of a brand of bikes. I believe the forum auto hyperlinks it to their online store with a referral code as a potential revenue raiser.

Wiggle also auto-hyperlinks.

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Cycleops70
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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Cycleops70 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:18 am

Gotcha. I thought it might have been something I did.

Wixxy
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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Wixxy » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:06 am

Emailed MR. See what the fuss is all about.

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Cycleops70
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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Cycleops70 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:53 am

Wixxy wrote:Emailed MR. See what the fuss is all about.


I'd Be reluctant to do that.
When I emailed Mainroads about the no bikes signs across the freeway bridge (Reid hwy). They decided to review it & extended it to Wanneroo road.

Ironically preventing access to the shared path that they had advised me to use instead.
Last edited by Cycleops70 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wixxy
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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Wixxy » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:15 pm

Just on that last comment above - was the shared path on Reid Hwy still accessible via a pedestrian crossing?


Anyhow I left out the reply I got last week as she (MR) said they would send someone out to look and I haven't as yet heard back.

But she did point out quite rightly at this intersection the sealed shoulder doesn't run up to lights alongside the left turn pocket, and as such this may be the reason for the sign. She didn't know if it was directing you to the path on the otherside of the lights or sending you on an alternative route via Alexander.

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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Cycleops70 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:49 pm

Wixxy wrote:Just on that last comment above - was the shared path on Reid Hwy still accessible via a pedestrian crossing?


If you're heading west, you need to exit at Wanneroo rd, turn north & join the shared path by heading the wrong way down the exit road (not ideal).

If you're heading east, you need to exit onto the shared path just before Duffy rd. you'll need to know where you're going after that, as there is no signage.
It does cross some zebra crossing.

Ironically, there are no restrictions from entering via Duffy or Erindale. Which makes the "no bikes" signage at either end irrelevant.

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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Wixxy » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:15 am

The sign was taken down last week, must of been for the road works last year.

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rolandp
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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby rolandp » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:12 am

Marmion Ave now has one. The intersection of Whitfords Ave and Marmion Ave was recently 'upgraded' and as finalisation of this project they built a small concrete path that now connects to the 'footpath' with the sign instructing us onto the 'footpath' - this is when travelling south.

Travelling north, no change, this is due to a very wide emergency lane (at least 2m wide) which they periodically painted bike symbols on. Heading south, there is a 5-10cm gab between the road and the verge. Marmion Ave at this location is 80kph. One can only assume cars break down when heading north only, as does one when riding, we only travel north.

I assume the reason for installing the sign is that there is no emergency lane when travelling south, and they don't want us riding in traffic doing 80kph.

Travel to the next intersection, Hepburn, which was also recently 'upgraded' and has the same width lanes and speed limits. No instruction to move off the road, it is perfectly OK to travel in exactly the same lanes with cars doing 80kph.

The logic and inconsistencies are lost on me.

Wixxy
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Re: Gnangara Rd / Alex Drive

Postby Wixxy » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:04 pm

Your last bit seems to indicate different people were in charge of each project hence the inconsistency or there was an oversight as seems to have happened here in leaving the sign up.

On a related matter. Would you and others consider the wide use of pedestrian crossings on some psp routes is with the long-term intention of mounting cycle lights on them as and when funding is available?

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