Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby RonK » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:06 am

Wingnut wrote:Q. Why are you using a heavy Rohloff Speedhub? A. Because it is durable and cost effective in the long term.

A lighter drivetrain could be installed for less money...


Well no, those are certainly benefits, but not the primary reason for my choice. I want convenient trouble-free operation.

Let's debunk another myth - while a Speedhub does concentrate the mass at the rear, it is questionable that there is a significant difference from a conventional derailleur touring setup.

And I have easily compensated for the slightly heavier transmission by using lighter components elsewhere.
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by BNA » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:51 am

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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby il padrone » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:51 am

I built my Thorn Nomad up with the Rohloff and the heavier Andra 30 rims, and otherwise similar components as I had on my old touring bike..... and it came out weighing exactly the same :? (this is certainly not because the Thorn has a noticeably lighter frame than the old Giant Sedona)

As far as weight on a touring bike is concerned, when you are putting 25-30kgs of gear onto your bike for a big tour, a few hundred grams is seriously immaterial. Weight only hamstrings you really on climbs and in fast acceleration. Climbs can be resolved with low enough gears and as for acceleration - it's not a race for deity's sake!
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby RonK » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:02 am

il padrone wrote:As far as weight on a touring bike is concerned, when you are putting 25-30kgs of gear onto your bike for a big tour, a few hundred grams is seriously immaterial. Weight only hamstrings you really on climbs and in fast acceleration. Climbs can be resolved with low enough gears and as for acceleration - it's not a race for deity's sake!


Who said anything about racing? I'm talking about having a comfortable ride. And as I've said elsewhere, I define comfort as being able to get off the bike at the end of the day, having made reasonable progress, without feeling utterly exhausted, and being able to get back on the bike in the morning without stiff and aching joints, sore muscles, and developing fatigue.

Your "few hundred grams" certainly would not make any difference if it was a once-off, but it never is - it tends to be repeated over and over. "I'll take the big tent - it's only a few grams heavier", "I'll take this camp stool - it only weighs a few hundred grams". That is why you are loading your bike with 25-30kgs of gear. I'm putting no more than 20kgs on mine. Makes no difference? - yeah, right!

There is an old proverb "Mind your pennies, your pounds will mind themselves." It's about money but is equally relevant in this context.
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby il padrone » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:52 am

RonK wrote:Who said anything about racing? I'm talking about having a comfortable ride. And as I've said elsewhere, I define comfort as being able to get off the bike at the end of the day, having made reasonable progress, without feeling utterly exhausted, and being able to get back on the bike in the morning without stiff and aching joints, sore muscles, and developing fatigue.

For sure, and I happily ride 80-110kms+ for the day and feel good to ride the next on my bike. I'm not trying to do 160km days (unless I get a massive tailwind).

RonK wrote:Your "few hundred grams" certainly would not make any difference if it was a once-off, but it never is - it tends to be repeated over and over. "I'll take the big tent - it's only a few grams heavier", "I'll take this camp stool - it only weighs a few hundred grams". That is why you are loading your bike with 25-30kgs of gear. I'm putting no more than 20kgs on mine. Makes no difference? - yeah, right!

I have a pretty standard kit of gear that I carry which I think weighs about 20kgs. Last time I actually weighed it was for our Tassie tour a few years back and it was 23kgs but included some extra items because I was with the family and out for 17 days. These days I've dropped some items off the kit and use lighter things as well.

On top of that I'd add food, that may be needed for anything from 3 to 8 days, plus any water I need to carry. I'm pretty sure on sections of our outback SA tour I would have been over the 30kg load and we were happily doing 70-90km days (with plenty of relaxing breaks along the way). Flat road riding of course.

Some of the little extra items are things that make quite a difference to how happy I feel around camp with only minimal weight eg. that camp stool (465g). I spent 25 years sitting on dirt or the odd lumpy log, then discovered how much better this stool was, for negligable real penalty.

Weight is all relative to what you're used to, even what you're riding. I've been riding tours on this sort of loaded bike for so may years now that it is pretty much the norm to me. I've ridden the steep goat tracks up into the high country of Victoria, the Snowy Mountains and Tasmania and enjoyed myself very much there. My brother's velomobile is a different thing again, weighs 30kgs on it's own. He's toured Tassie on it. It's slow on hills, but in undulating country it is actually very fast because it flies downhill so well, and has such low air resisitance, that it carries the speed over the hills much better. He cruises at 40-50kmh on flat roads.
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby gregmacc » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:14 pm

il padrone (et al :) ) ... I know it's an ageing thread, but I think my concerns relate ... so here goes anyway ...
My wife and I put deposits on a pair of Raven Tours last night. When on the phone to Cath from Thorn/SJS I inquired about the possibility of having a couple of the Pletscher stay mounted kickstands chucked into the shipping boxes. Although they are quite happy to do so, apparently they don't recommend using them ... in fact, they will not honour the 100 day money back warranty if kickstands are fitted by new customers. They are concerned about damage to the paint and resulting corrosion, and the risk of crushing damage to the stay tubes. And that's all fair and understandable as far as I'm concerned. Just wondering what forum members think about the real dangers? ... assuming due care was taken with installation, and the stand and bike not being subjected to any abuse over and above normal everyday loaded touring usage. We have been using the Greenfields Stabilizer kickstands (thanks to il padrone's recommendation) on our aluminium mountain bike tourers with absolutely no ill effects to date. I would have thought that mass produced Taiwanese aluminium stay tubing would be even more prone to crushing damage, than high quality heat treated Cro Mo? (also from Taiwan) ... corrosion issues being a different story of course ...
We have grown to appreciate the convenience of a sturdy kickstand on our current touring bikes but definitely don't want to risk damage to our new investments. Ideas? ... Thoughts? ... Recommendations?
Thanks
Last edited by gregmacc on Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby Slim » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:30 pm

gregmacc wrote:il padrone (et al :) ) ...
We have grown to appreciate the convenience of a sturdy kickstand on our current touring bikes but definitely don't want to risk damage to our new investments. Ideas? ... Thoughts? ... Recommendations?
Thanks


Et Al here.

I just ordered a ClickStand from http://www.click-stand.com/

Your exact same questions is also asked and answered here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/ind ... pic=3263.0
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby Baalzamon » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:35 pm

Slim wrote:
gregmacc wrote:il padrone (et al :) ) ...
We have grown to appreciate the convenience of a sturdy kickstand on our current touring bikes but definitely don't want to risk damage to our new investments. Ideas? ... Thoughts? ... Recommendations?
Thanks


Et Al here.

I just ordered a ClickStand from http://www.click-stand.com/

Your exact same questions is also asked and answered here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/ind ... pic=3263.0



I think I would be getting a clickstand next after my pletscher zoom slipped 3 times whilst loaded. There is now paint damage to the frame now.
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby il padrone » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:19 pm

Baalzamon wrote:after my pletscher zoom slipped 3 times whilst loaded.

This has not happened to me, in 9 months of regular use (daily commuter and weekend/week tours).

My Pletscher zoom has a small amount of movement when it is flicked down or up. I am going to work on the mount to remove this, but the stand's support is not compromised. A friend has the same stand on his Thorn Raven Tour with a solidly secure mount. If it can't be resolved I may have to go back to the Greenfield. I used a Greenfield stand for 8 years on my Cro Mo Giant Sedona - perfectly excellent stand, and still in use.

Thorn Raven Nomads are relatively heavily built frames, of double-butted Cro Mo steel. I dont see frame crushing as being any significant issue and paint damage should not be a real concern. I think Thorn are just covering their a#$es against any mechanical non-competents who try to fit a stand badly. Ironic that Thorn recommend the Hebie Bipod stand. It's a good stand for urban use and allows use as a workstand, but on irregular surfaces and with a heavily loaded bike, it is much easier for the bike to topple than with a rear-stay stand. The contrast between my experience and my companion's on our outback tour last year shone the spotlight on this.

I actually value the lack of damage that occurs due to my bike no longer sliding down a pole or railing that I have leaned it against.
Last edited by il padrone on Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby gregmacc » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:36 pm

Slim ... OK ... so it's pretty clear where Thorn stand on bolting stuff to stays (and thanks for the link, might be spending some time there in the future) ... but I'm wondering whether the clickstand solution offers real insurance against paint damage in certain situations? For example: Recently, 2 of the 3 clickstand equipped bikes on a recent club tour we were on were blown over at our overnight campsite during strong wind gusts ... our kickstand equipped machines were not. I know my example could be dismissed as just anecdotal and unscientific but think about it ... loaded bike falls over in strong wind, top tube hits a large rock on the ground, paint is removed and bare steel is exposed to the elements. Compare that scenario with paint damage resulting from carelessly fitted stay connected stands. Different but the same?
Like so many biking gear related issues, maybe there can be merit in several well executed solutions to a specific problem. I can of course totally understand Thorn's attitude.
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby gregmacc » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:41 pm

SJS actually state on their site that the Thorn warranty will be void if Hebie Bipods are fitted to their bikes.
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby Slim » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:09 pm

gregmacc wrote:Recently, 2 of the 3 clickstand equipped bikes on a recent club tour we were on were blown over at our overnight campsite during strong wind gusts ... our kickstand equipped machines were not. I know my example could be dismissed as just anecdotal and unscientific but think about it ...


Interesting.

Something to note - on careful reading of the ClickStand website he's beefed up his products and the original Classic + Mini options are n/a as of Nov last.
I've ordered the Click-Stand Max with a Fat Foot. Hopefully that will reduce potential issues in strong wind, hurricanes etc.
Overall I was persuaded by the comments on the Thorn site - couldn't find a negative post.
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby il padrone » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:15 pm

gregmacc wrote:SJS actually state on their site that the Thorn warranty will be void if Hebie Bipods are fitted to their bikes.

Nothing metioned in the warraty I found here.
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby gregmacc » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:18 pm

Baalzamon wrote:

I think I would be getting a clickstand next after my pletscher zoom slipped 3 times whilst loaded. There is now paint damage to the frame now.


So are you saying that the slippage was caused by actual mechanical failure of the Pletscher during normal usage in which it would be reasonably expected to cope?
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby Slim » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:33 pm

il padrone wrote:
gregmacc wrote:SJS actually state on their site that the Thorn warranty will be void if Hebie Bipods are fitted to their bikes.

Nothing metioned in the warraty I found here.


True, nothing mentioned.

However, after the horse has bolted you will discern a small footnote note on the SJS website: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hebie-bipod- ... prod18779/

Clearly an opportunity for the lawyers to dip their snouts.
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby gregmacc » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:52 pm

Slim wrote:I've ordered the Click-Stand Max with a Fat Foot. Hopefully that will reduce potential issues in strong wind, hurricanes etc.
Overall I was persuaded by the comments on the Thorn site - couldn't find a negative post.


Keep us posted about your experiences with the new stand :)
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby Aushiker » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:58 pm

Slim wrote:However, after the horse has bolted you will discern a small footnote note on the SJS website: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hebie-bipod- ... prod18779/

Clearly an opportunity for the lawyers to dip their snouts.


Would disagree. The customer is buying a Thorn ... the related warranty documentation applies. There can be no expectation that a customer wishing to fit a Hebie stand would read the SJS Cycles website or have to to buy the product; they can easily buy it elsewhere.

If Thorn fails to make it clear in the documentation related to its product BEFORE SALE then it is there problem, not the customers.

That said, if their product is that vulnerable to fail, I wouldn't touch one with barge pole.

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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby gregmacc » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:43 pm

Does anyone know (roughly) how much straight handlebar length is required to mount a Rohloff shifter + brake lever + Rohloff specific Ergon GC3 bar-end/grip?
I see ip has them on his Thorn flat bars but our's will be the Thorn "comfort bars" which I'm guessing have a shorter straight section. It would be reassuring to know that we could use the GC3s. I would need to swap-out the standard issue grips supplied with Thorn Ravens. They won't supply GC3s as an upgrade ... I've already asked.

Also ... back to the stands ... Do the Pletscher single leg propstands have issues with the rubber foot wearing away quickly? The rubber stoppers at the base of our Greenfield Stabilizer stands have been notoriously bad for this.
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby Baalzamon » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:06 pm

Aushiker wrote:
Slim wrote:However, after the horse has bolted you will discern a small footnote note on the SJS website: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hebie-bipod- ... prod18779/

Clearly an opportunity for the lawyers to dip their snouts.


Would disagree. The customer is buying a Thorn ... the related warranty documentation applies. There can be no expectation that a customer wishing to fit a Hebie stand would read the SJS Cycles website or have to to buy the product; they can easily buy it elsewhere.

If Thorn fails to make it clear in the documentation related to its product BEFORE SALE then it is there problem, not the customers.

That said, if their product is that vulnerable to fail, I wouldn't touch one with barge pole.

Andrew


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Come and look at my thorn and see what they have done to prevent a Hebie bipod being fitted. They have made it very difficult indeed. Where the footprint of the stand is in contact with the frame what have they put in that location, cable guides for the gear cable for the Rohloff hub.
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby il padrone » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:54 pm

gregmacc wrote:Does anyone know (roughly) how much straight handlebar length is required to mount a Rohloff shifter + brake lever + Rohloff specific Ergon GC3 bar-end/grip?

The GC3 grip for Rohloff is about the same length as a regular grip on its own. My grip+shifter+brke lever measures 19cms. This is 3cms longer than the left grip+brake lever.

gregmacc wrote:Also ... back to the stands ... Do the Pletscher single leg propstands have issues with the rubber foot wearing away quickly? The rubber stoppers at the base of our Greenfield Stabilizer stands have been notoriously bad for this.

Pletscher Zoom has no rubber foot, rather an adjustable plastic end, bolted to the alloy leg. It has a large base that does not sink in, and will take some time to wear at all.
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby il padrone » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:57 pm

Baalzamon wrote:see what they have done to prevent a Hebie bipod being fitted. They have made it very difficult indeed. Where the footprint of the stand is in contact with the frame what have they put in that location, cable guides for the gear cable for the Rohloff hub.


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The two gear cables run right through under the BB and chainstay.



Here is where my rear-stay mount stand fits on. I really don't see it causing the force needed to crush the tubing here.

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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby gregmacc » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:15 pm

Thanks ip re the grips and the stand boot :)
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby il padrone » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:28 pm

No problem.


Pic of said grip.

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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby gregmacc » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:29 pm

Totally happy with the grips? I'm thinking the cork ones would be funky :lol: And the mirror? have you tried the version with the longer arm? Possibly mounted inboard of the grip/lever position?
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby il padrone » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:46 pm

The grips are great - really comfortable, in fact they are the most comfy grips I've ever used. Only slight reservation is that it is difficult to get the bar-ends tight enough not to move if pulled hard on (usually when picking up the bike using them or sometimes in a hard standing start if holding them). I've just altered the way I use the bar-ends a bit. It's worth this for the comfy grips :)

[edit] Yes, those cork ones do look funky. Might consider them as a replacement whenever mine wear out.

Image



As far as the mirror is concerned, I have the longer stem mirror on another bike, but it is more prone to vibration and knocking out of place. This short-stem mirror is really solid, doesn't vibrate, even on quite rough road surfaces (gravel, corrugations) as long as you do up the hex bolts nice and tight. I have it set in a position where it is actually inboard of the end of the bars but I can just see over my arm to get a very good rear view.
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Re: Thorn Raven Nomad coming together

Postby Baalzamon » Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:49 pm

gregmacc wrote:
Baalzamon wrote:

I think I would be getting a clickstand next after my pletscher zoom slipped 3 times whilst loaded. There is now paint damage to the frame now.


So are you saying that the slippage was caused by actual mechanical failure of the Pletscher during normal usage in which it would be reasonably expected to cope?


The bike fell over on me 3 times, what happened was the stand appeared to come away from the rear stays and rotated. I was unable to catch the bike each time this happened. Perhaps I have the stand at too much of an angle and need to increase the height of it.
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