Van Nicholas Pioneer project...

[RonK]

I believe I have better hair than Richard whose has tended to need slightly less tending as times gone on.

Well, I can't comment on your hair, but this might be a good avatar instead of the camel.

[rifraf]

Aaaah the camel.
Now that came about in the Internal hub gears 101 thread.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=38845
Mattyk had the temerity to suggest the Sachs/Sram Dualdrive an inferior product and likened it to a Camel.
Without caring what had given him the hump I decided that his comment was the straw that broke the camels back.

As I prefer my opposite gender in the stockings and suspenders I'll take a raincheck on the avatar suggestion me tinks

[Max]

So, Ron, what's the verdict????

Max

[RonK]

So, Ron, what's the verdict????

Max

Max, the Pioneer has to live up to the very high standard set by my Sabbath Silk Route, the bike I rode yesterday and which I used last year in New Zealand. And judging by this morning's relative short (around 32km) ride it's certainly going to achieve that standard.

Despite my good intentions, I didn't actually get up until 6am and set out about 20 minutes later on the River Loop. For you mexicans it's a very popular Brisbane cycling route with a mix of flat and undulating terrain with a decent hill thrown in for good measure. The bike felt immediately comfortable, so my choice of frame size and stem length seem to have been good. I made a brief stop after about 20 minutes to raise the palm rests on the Ergon grips a little, but otherwise the riding position seems comfortable and natural.

Without a computer fitted I don't know how the road speed compared, but my impression is that it is slower than the Sabbath. That can probably be put down the rolling resistance the 26 x 2.0 inch Marathon Duremes I have fitted. This afternoon I'm going to fit a set of Marathon Supremes - the tyre used on the Sabbath, lighter and far more suited to road riding than the Duremes.

It's probably going to take a few decent rides to get used to the slightly wider gear spacing of the Rohloff hub, and I need to master the technique for downshifting on hills. But it seems likely that the 39 x 16 gearing combination I've selected will allow 11th gear (1:1 ratio) to be frequently used on the flats. And descending Highgate Hill in 14th gear I didn't spin out, even thought my speed was probably around 50 kph. The one thing that surprised me about the hub is how noisy it is in the lower gears. I had been warned to expect this, but it's likely the titanium frame transmits and maybe amplifies the sound so it seems rather loud. Some users report that the hub becomes quieter with use, I hope they are right.

Handling wise I had been expecting the steering to be slow with the long chainstays and wider bars, but it is actually quite agile and seems to turn just as hard as I can lay it over. But it's also very stable and shows no signs of any tendency to shimmy at high speed.

When I arrived at the Coffee Garage in Southbank, the only touring bike amongst maybe 100 or more road bikes, I was very surprised when a bunch of roadies showed a lot of interest and even asked if they could take photos. Wonders will never cease...

Overall I'd have to say I'm delighted with the result. The ride and handling live right up to my expectations. The fit is as good or better than any bike I've owned. It looks and feels fantastic. It's probably a little slower than the Sabbath, but that is to be expected since it is heavier and has wider tyres. I think we are going to be very happy together.

[Max]

That's great news, Ron I'm not surprised the roadies were in awe of it. Perhaps they secretly harbour a desire to go touring!

Once you've got it all bedded in, drop me a line. I'd love to see your new steed in the flesh. I wouldn't be surprised if Comedian and other Brisbane BNA'ers wanted to see it too

Max

[CommuRider]

Thanks Ron, this Mexican enjoyed your analysis

The noise is a bit of a worry, my Nexus hubs never emitted much noise. In fact it was the lack of noise apart from clicks shifting gears that make IHG hubs a delight. I do hope that noise does go away.....

[Max]

CommuRider, the Rohloff hubs apparently need somewhere between 700 and 1000 miles for the noise to go away. It's not a mechanical show-stopper, but some consider it enough of an annoyance that they choose some other gear system instead.

Max

[CommuRider]

Fair enough but how noisy is it? Cleat-noisy or rrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrr noisy?

C'est normal IP and rifraf? Since you're both the determined Rohloff fans here....

[il padrone]

Not sure what you mean by "cleat-noisy", but it is certainly no show-stopper. It apparently gets a lot quieter after the first oil-change (something I am just about to do in the next week or so). 7th is the noisiest, all the others in the lower range are less so. The upper range (8th to 14th) are marvellously silent and these are the gears that are used mostly in normal riding. When using the lower gears it is on a climb when you know you need it. If there is traffic about or the road is gravel, the road noise partially drowns out any gear noise. I do tend to skip quickly through 7th and get into 6th which is a good bit quieter.

[CommuRider]

Ok found one. The noise is a bit grating but suspect it is the closed environment of the experiment than what it is in reality. No?

[il padrone]

OMGosh!

There is far more noise from whatever is driving that belt than ever comes from 7th gear.

[rifraf]

Fair enough but how noisy is it? Cleat-noisy or rrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrr noisy?

C'est normal IP and rifraf? Since you're both the determined Rohloff fans here....

That would be IP and Baalzamon, as I'm currently putting a Dualdrive through its paces

Rohloff definitely a contender for a future build though but not for a while yet.

The range of the dualdrive is immense, provided curtisy of its IGH internals and is of great benefit to small wheels like my 406's.
The addition of a cassette (11-34) without the need of a triple crankset makes for a very wide
range of gearing (576%).
I believe it currently provides the greatest range currently available on a production bicycle (thats your que Ron to pull an alternative
out of your hat/helmet)

[Baalzamon]

7th is quite noisy but at least you know when your in it. It yells at ya, your in the low range now, get out of it!

[KenGS]

7th is quite noisy but at least you know when your in it. It yells at ya, your in the low range now, get out of it!

I find the noise of no concern. I have trouble reading the numbers on the shifter so it helps me know what gear I'm in. Especially important for the crucial 8th to 7th shift which can be a bit tricky. It's a double shift which first goes to 14th before dropping to 7th and can be a bit sticky under load. Had an embarrassing clipstack the other day when I hit a steep climb in 8th with too much load on the cranks and the gears stuck in 14th. This was partly due to my not running in this particular shift sufficiently to smooth it out. So lately I've been giving it an extra workover and it has improved.

[RonK]

I believe it currently provides the greatest range currently available on a production bicycle (thats your que Ron to pull an alternative
out of your hat/helmet)

Sorry to disappoint you Rifraf, but the absolute range is not something I've ever been concerned about. What does concern me, assuming a sufficiently low gear can be achieved, is the steps between gears. The Speedhub has 14 gears in even steps of 13% (equivalent to 2 teeth). I'd prefer smaller steps of 7% (1 tooth) but will have to wait until Rohloff invent the 21-speed version to get them.

[Baalzamon]

I find the noise of no concern. I have trouble reading the numbers on the shifter so it helps me know what gear I'm in. Especially important for the crucial 8th to 7th shift which can be a bit tricky. It's a double shift which first goes to 14th before dropping to 7th and can be a bit sticky under load. Had an embarrassing clipstack the other day when I hit a steep climb in 8th with too much load on the cranks and the gears stuck in 14th. This was partly due to my not running in this particular shift sufficiently to smooth it out. So lately I've been giving it an extra workover and it has improved.

Yes I've had that problem as well, going up a minor hill with a 90 degrees turn I was dropping gears and next thing ARRG I'm in 14th! Soon as I stopped moving the cranks, it dropped into 7th. So now I have no power on the cranks when I'm changing gears especially between 8-7.

[rifraf]

I believe it currently provides the greatest range currently available on a production bicycle (thats your que Ron to pull an alternative
out of your hat/helmet)

Sorry to disappoint you Rifraf, but the absolute range is not something I've ever been concerned about. What does concern me, assuming a sufficiently low gear can be achieved, is the steps between gears. The Speedhub has 14 gears in even steps of 13% (equivalent to 2 teeth). I'd prefer smaller steps of 7% (1 tooth) but will have to wait until Rohloff invent the 21-speed version to get them.

Hmmmmmmm let me see....
In the IGH the second position is 1:1 or 100%
First (Low) is 73% of 1:1
Third (High) is 136% of 1:1
This is if I've understood the pdf document correctly.
Then of course you've the normal choice of what ever cassette you've chosen, be it seven, eight or nine speed.
I'm currently unsure if a ten speed cassette fits on the free hub.

[KenGS]

I believe it currently provides the greatest range currently available on a production bicycle (thats your que Ron to pull an alternative
out of your hat/helmet)

Sorry to disappoint you Rifraf, but the absolute range is not something I've ever been concerned about. What does concern me, assuming a sufficiently low gear can be achieved, is the steps between gears. The Speedhub has 14 gears in even steps of 13% (equivalent to 2 teeth). I'd prefer smaller steps of 7% (1 tooth) but will have to wait until Rohloff invent the 21-speed version to get them.

Or put a 39 and 42 chainring up front. That gives about 7% between them

[rifraf]

Or put a 39 and 42 chainring up front. That gives about 7% between them

Currently running a single 39T on a lightish 170mm FC7701 dura ace crankset
According to Sheldon Browns gear calculator
http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/
16.7 inches to 82.7
Low - 1:1 High
44.6 60.7 82.7
38.2 52.0 70.9
33.4 45.5 62.0
29.7 40.5 55.1
25.5 34.7 47.2
20.6 28.0 38.2
16.7 22.8 31.0
As you can see theres some overlapping but as with all things, after a while gear changes become automatic and without thought.

[il padrone]

As you can see theres some overlapping

You really could do with a Rohloff for ease of use

Using 42 and 17t

17.99
20.56
23.12
26.34
29.55
34.04
38.54
43.68
49.46
56.53
64.24
73.23
82.86
94.43

All with just one twist of the shifter and no overlap

[rifraf]

You really could do with a Rohloff for ease of use
All with just one twist of the shifter and no overlap

A work of wonder for sure.
I'm a proponent of the virtues of IGH.
However as gearchanges with the dualdrive are second nature and without thought now, I wouldnt find
"ease of use" a reasonable reason to part with that amount of cash.
The dualdrive is currently unbeatable in my mind (tiny as that is)
in the bang for buck arena.
15 years use from the current one.
I've my newly built custom wheel (from wheelbuilder.com with cx-ray spokes) sitting there waiting for a reason
to do away with the old one and take its place. I have a pre bought hub sitting there that I got with the wrong spoke count.
I can currently buy complete hubs (non disk version - for internal parts) off ebay for around $90 delivered.
I can utilise seven, eight or nine speed cassettes on my whim or budget.
Hub failure is not something I'm terribly worried about.
Whilst I'm lucky that if I really wanted a Rohloff I could swing it, I believe at this stage I'd rather put my money to use
doing a tour or two.
I pretty much emptied my Wiggle wishlist this evening and barring a Showerspass jacket which I think is next pays priority
if family xmas gifts dont get in the way I believe I'm ready to stop reading about it and start doing some of it - Touring.
I've got five Wiggle orders on the way now so its mostly a matter of walking and riding away the stress of waiting for
the right postie/courier.

I think when I get my Moulton TSR frame that I'll order a Rohloff then.
I really do want to be in WA and feel settled in secure accommodation before I treat myself to an asset of that value - tempting as it is.

[rifraf]

They are the most comfortable thing around on two wheels. I am quite happy riding the bike for long distances without the mitts using these grips. No discomfort, vibration or numbness.

Do they make your palms sweaty riding without mitts?

Bugger - I've just discovered the GC3 is available with the cork grips. Oops - but not for Rohloff. Get these ones Rifraf.

I ordered some GC3 grips this evening as I needed another purchase to use my Wiggle discount voucher.
The tally was $ 56.90 for the pair which was much better than non discounted.
I was a little iffy about the cork even though it was tempting due to looking great.
I'm going to wait till the cork ones have been out for a while and see what the reviews are like after they
have been on a bike for a year or two.
As well I'm not sure how long I'm keeping my gripshift set up so might have to upgrade in six months time anyhow.
My current sachs 3x7 dualdrive uses a gripshift like this:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/370550526372 ... 1438.l2649
The dualdrive uses only one fairly long dual shifter like this:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/290628003168 ... 1438.l2649
whilst there are some nice trigger shifters available like:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170721012966 ... 1438.l2649
Decisions, decisions.
I did spot some cheapish GC3's on ebay
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/120796697080 ... 1438.l2649
but didnt spot any cork versions.

[Max]

I only just had the opportunity to play that YouTube of the Rohloff gear noise. Is it really that bad?????

Max

[il padrone]

Certainly is not anything like that. There is a whole lot of extra noise from whatever is driving that belt, and a lot of echo in the room I believe.

[rifraf]

I'm picking this isnt the right time nor place to start extolling the virtues of the
super silent Sram Dualdrive?