Dyno Hub Device Recharging

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Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby Wingnut » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:42 pm

Think I'll get one of these...e-werk sounds like a pain in the arse. Apparently it will also charge an iPad too...

http://www.brightbikelabs.com/products/ ... revolution
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby RonK » Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:51 am

This gleaming little gem landed in my mailbox this week - a Shutter Precision dynamo hub. It's astonishingly small and quite light.

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It will ultimately be built into a wheel for a roadie that I plan to take on an ultralight tour.
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby rifraf » Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:49 pm

Hi RonK
I'm a fan of the traditional aesthetic of polished metal.
That looks very nice indeed to my eye.:mrgreen:
I didnt want to peruse all the options via pdf. :roll:
What sold you on this model and how did it differentiate itself from the other SP versions :?:
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby RonK » Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:19 pm

rifraf wrote:Hi RonK
I'm a fan of the traditional aesthetic of polished metal.
That looks very nice indeed to my eye.:mrgreen:
I didnt want to peruse all the options via pdf. :roll:
What sold you on this model and how did it differentiate itself from the other SP versions :?:


I like it too, but I fear it won't match the rear hub I'll probably end up using - it's more a grey colour.

The 8 Series is the logical choice - it's half the bulk and weight of the 7 Series.

The models are easy to work out:

The S is for 20" wheels, or you can use it on 700C wheels at 6V2.4W output to power a led lamp (but I want to use it for battery charging).

The P is for 700C at 6V3W output.

V is for v-brake (or any rim brake).

D is for disk brake.

So to use on a roadie I got a PV-8.
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby rifraf » Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:38 pm

RonK wrote:I like it too, but I fear it won't match the rear hub I'll probably end up using - it's more a grey colour.

The 8 Series is the logical choice - it's half the bulk and weight of the 7 Series.

The models are easy to work out:

The S is for 20" wheels, or you can use it on 700C wheels at 6V2.4W output to power a led lamp (but I want to use it for battery charging).

The P is for 700C at 6V3W output.

V is for v-brake (or any rim brake).

D is for disk brake.

So to use on a roadie I got a PV-8.


Ahh - thank you :!:

I would have grabbed one of these SP's for my extra-wheel trailer project but ended up with a Son28 after a store mistake saw me end up with a spare.
Ze Germans were very good about it and ended up only charging me trade price for both as well as paying for half the shipping of my order.
I dont spend a lot of moolah with the poms these days due to the good service I received from Ze Germans.
The've been pretty damn good at fixing stuff ups and going out of their way to put things right. :D
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby rifraf » Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:31 pm

Daggo wrote:
}SkOrPn--7 wrote:
I just mounted it behind my head so I can reach up and turn it to face the sun through out my tour.

Ricky


I have one now. And am building up a little box that will take 3 inputs of any voltage from 2.8~20v and puts out 15v to change the battery. So hub, cheap 5v panels, someones' car battery.....

What is that mount you are using Ricky? And where can I get one?

Daggo.

G'day Daggo,
how are you getting on with your 23000 unit?
On the off chance you know a bit about the electrickery, I'm wondering if my E-werks max output of I think 13.3 volts and 1.5 amps would charge the 23000 battery.
I ask as its specs list an input current of 15 volts and 1.2 amps.
I can set the Ewerk to 1.2amps but 13.3 volts is as high as she goes on the dial.
Any thoughts?

Cheers
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby Daggo » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:48 pm

Hi Aidan.

Sorry been slack and haven't looked at the forum for a while.

No by the looks of it you will need 15v to charge the LiPo battery, and they are fussy things to charge. I haven't pulled apart the S23000 yet (which is kinda strange for me...) to get a good idea of what's going on inside it. The LiPo batteries come in banks of 3.7V so I figure there is 4 inside the S23000 for 14.8V. Little bit of loss through the charging circuit so 15V would be minimum needed. Hobby king sell LiPos by the truck load Hobby King LiPo and the ham radio SOTA guys love how reliable and lightweight they are.

I just had a quick read of the E-Werks manual. It says the max out from a Hub is about 7V. What it doesn't say is "if you stick X in you will only get Y out" but then it bangs on about accepting up to 50v and that it can put out 13.3V. So I wouldn't have a clue what's going on inside one.

I got a bunch of the LM2577 to charge the S23000 and they work a treat. Set them up to output any voltage up 20V and whatever you put into them you they stay at the set voltage. The lowest they worked down to when I was testing them was 1.8V. I got a bit greedy and wanted several inputs, one AC from the hub, mixed to one 15V output. So the box lent up a bit big..... And when I have access to power any DC power source I plug into my box will charge up the battery.

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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby Aushiker » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:56 pm

RonK wrote:The S is for 20" wheels, or you can use it on 700C wheels at 6V2.4W output to power a led lamp (but I want to use it for battery charging).

The P is for 700C at 6V3W output.


Owners of bicycles with 20" wheels. We recommend the P series hub dynamos even for 20" wheels as they will produce more power/light at lower speeds. The risk of burning out lamps is unlikely as modern dynamo LED lights have in-built voltage limiters. I run a PD-8 on my Bike Friday without problems and can hardly notice the additional drag. If you plan to recharge electronic devices, the extra power is a key benefit available only to 20" wheel bicycle owners.
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby jemo27 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:47 pm

Wingnut wrote:Think I'll get one of these...e-werk sounds like a pain in the arse. Apparently it will also charge an iPad too...

http://www.brightbikelabs.com/products/ ... revolution


Wingnut, did you try this product looks simple to us?
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby RonK » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:28 pm

jemo27 wrote:
Wingnut wrote:Think I'll get one of these...e-werk sounds like a pain in the arse. Apparently it will also charge an iPad too...

http://www.brightbikelabs.com/products/ ... revolution


Wingnut, did you try this product looks simple to us?

Not a good choice. Has no internal battery and is no better than an eWerk. Without a buffer battery charging any idevice will be problematic.

There are better choices already posted in this thread.
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby Wingnut » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:27 pm

Apparently not Ron...as long as you ride above 5.5kmh it will charge your phone, GPS or USB batteries...

Of the reviews I have seen so far they have all been positive....

Please explain the reason for your negativity Ron?
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Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby RonK » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:44 pm

Wingnut wrote:Apparently not Ron...as long as you ride above 5.5kmh it will charge your phone, GPS or USB batteries...

Of the reviews I have seen so far they have all been positive....

Please explain the reason for your negativity Ron?

To start, I think 5.5kph is rather optimistic, and will depend on the output of the particular dynamo hub used.

Then, everytime the speed drops, the idevice will disconnect, and then have to reconnect when the speed rises. This results in poor charging. If you want to charge an idevice reliably you need a battery to act as a buffer so that it does not disconnect. The Super-I-Cable or the Biologic Reecharge both have built in batteries which will facilitate this, and provide the advantage of having a battery store to charge other devices as well. Or, you could get an eWerk and the companion battery for the eWerk.

We have discussed all this earlier in this thread.
Last edited by RonK on Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby il padrone » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:14 pm

Just get a Powermonkey Extreme ;)

Re. the Bright Bike charger - the bare USB port would be a concern to me. In short order the rust will put a stop to your charging eficiency :roll:


They show a picture of it "charging underwater" but I am still not convinced about how this could be sealed to stop corrosion and shorting. And then there's the weather proofing of the open USB port ???

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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby Wingnut » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:21 pm

I'll leave you with your pessimism Ron, no use trying...

http://www.sinewavecycles.com/pages/faq
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby il padrone » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:22 pm

RonK wrote:Not a good choice. Has no internal battery and is no better than an eWerk. Without a buffer battery charging any idevice will be problematic.

The manufacturers raise a number of arguments in favour of charging without a buffer battery (or being free to choose an external battery).


Does the Revolution have a built-in battery?

◦No - and this is a good thing. Most chargers that include a "cache battery" do so because they are not efficient enough to directly charge a phone - they must slowly charge a battery, then charge the phone from the battery. This adds further inefficiency to the system, as well as a delay while the internal battery is charged. The Revolution is able to directly charge your phone, making the cache battery unnecessary.
◦Some chargers have a larger built-in battery, meant to store a large amount of energy. There are several reasons we don't like this system:
1.Product lifetime. Batteries wear out. Even the highest quality lithium ion battery is rated for about 3 years from manufacturing, independent of how much you use it. There's nothing in the Revolution that wears out. When you build up a touring bike you select parts based on reliability and durability first, and everything else second. We want the Revolution to be the same way.
2.Efficiency. The extra steps to charge the battery, then use the battery to power the output is a significant hit on efficiency. Most users directly charge their phone, and the extra conversion steps mean wasted energy.
3.Flexibility. A product with an internal battery is stuck with that one battery, which may be too small for some users and too large for others. There are many USB battery packs available in all sorts of shapes and sizes and capacities. The freedom to use a battery that fits your bike and your tour is lost when an internal battery is used. This also allows the Revolution to be as small as possible.
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Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby RonK » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:44 pm

il padrone wrote:
RonK wrote:Not a good choice. Has no internal battery and is no better than an eWerk. Without a buffer battery charging any idevice will be problematic.

The manufacturers raise a number of arguments in favour of charging without a buffer battery (or being free to choose an external battery).


Does the Revolution have a built-in battery?

◦No - and this is a good thing. Most chargers that include a "cache battery" do so because they are not efficient enough to directly charge a phone - they must slowly charge a battery, then charge the phone from the battery. This adds further inefficiency to the system, as well as a delay while the internal battery is charged. The Revolution is able to directly charge your phone, making the cache battery unnecessary.
◦Some chargers have a larger built-in battery, meant to store a large amount of energy. There are several reasons we don't like this system:
1.Product lifetime. Batteries wear out. Even the highest quality lithium ion battery is rated for about 3 years from manufacturing, independent of how much you use it. There's nothing in the Revolution that wears out. When you build up a touring bike you select parts based on reliability and durability first, and everything else second. We want the Revolution to be the same way.
2.Efficiency. The extra steps to charge the battery, then use the battery to power the output is a significant hit on efficiency. Most users directly charge their phone, and the extra conversion steps mean wasted energy.
3.Flexibility. A product with an internal battery is stuck with that one battery, which may be too small for some users and too large for others. There are many USB battery packs available in all sorts of shapes and sizes and capacities. The freedom to use a battery that fits your bike and your tour is lost when an internal battery is used. This also allows the Revolution to be as small as possible.


So they do - looks like marketing spin to me...

But you were selective in choosing your quotes. These are more more pertinent.

Why does it take 10 seconds for charging to begin?

Some devices, such as the iPhone®, require a minimum amount of power to charge correctly. If charging begins before input power is sufficient, the device may refuse to charge. The 10 second delay gives you time to reach a minimum speed. This allows you to charge an iPhone® or other devices that would not otherwise charge correctly.


and

How fast do I have to ride to charge my phone?

With a hub generator, charging starts at only 3.5 MPH (5.5 km/h), although this can depend on your device's ability to trickle charge. At only 9 MPH (14.4 km/h), charging is as fast as a wall-powered charger.


What I've consistently been saying is that an idevice i.e. an iPhone or iPod will not charge at less than the stated 14.4 kph. This is marginal for touring cyclists.
Last edited by RonK on Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby RonK » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:46 pm

Wingnut wrote:I'll leave you with your pessimism Ron, no use trying...

http://www.sinewavecycles.com/pages/faq


Realism, not pessimism - but you only have to put up your $120 to find out if it will charge your idevice.
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby Wingnut » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:55 am

True...

From the blogs I follow where the Revolution is being used, consistent speed/charge doesn't seem to be an issue...

I see it suiting my type of riding and I don't use any electric devices other than my iPhone...I plan to buy one soon...
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby jemo27 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:09 am

I emailed Sinewave about the charging produce here is the response I got
one thing to be aware of is that a bicycle dynamo isn't really capable of putting out the power required to charge an iPad and unfortunately, instead of simply charging slower with less power (as most devices do), the iPad will simply refuse to charge from anything powered by a dynamo.

But there are solutions, of course. I am a fan of using the Revolution to charge an external battery, and connecting my phone to the battery. At the end of the day both batteries are at 100%, giving me some extra power at night or for an afternoon off the bike. You can do something very similar with an iPad. I have had a good experience with the batteries from Anker:
http://www.ianker.com/External-Batteries/category-c1-s1
while others prefer the batteries from Mophie:
http://www.mophie.com/shop/universal-batteries
and there are others out there.

Simply use the Revolution to charge up the battery pack during the day, then use the pack to charge your iPad - you'll be good to go!

So like ewerk needs a battery if you want to charge an ipad
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby Tim » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:40 am

This is where the Ewerk is a superior device for recharging external batteries.
Rather than being restricted to a 5V/1A (5Watts) USB output in the case of the Sinewave product, the Ewerk has variable output. It can be tailored to charge at higher output levels of up to 18 Watts, provided the dynamo can generate that current, which it can at speeds higher than 15KPH.
I can recharge my Minigorilla battery at 9V/1.3A (11.7 Watts) from my Ewerk which is a much more efficient use of the hub dynamo output than charging other batteries or devices from USB type products such as the Sinewave one.
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Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby RonK » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:12 am

jemo27 wrote:I emailed Sinewave about the charging produce here is the response I got
I am a fan of using the Revolution to charge an external battery, and connecting my phone to the battery. At the end of the day both batteries are at 100%, giving me some extra power at night or for an afternoon off the bike.

So, straight from the horse's mouth, just what I said a few posts back.

And btw, this contradicts the marketing blurb IP posted from their website.

There is another option - the third generation of the Tout Terrain (now Cinq5) Plug claims to produce 500ma at only 12.5kph. This is what you need to start an idevice charging.

It's also sold as the Supernova Plug III and is available from Bike24. I think I'll be combining one of these with the SP PV-8 dynamo hub I acquired recently.
Last edited by RonK on Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:22 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby Tim » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:13 am

My system works very well.
On two separate 10-14 day tours and numerous 2-4 day trips I have been able to keep a phone, Garmin 800 GPS, Silva headlamp torch (1xAAbattery) and Radbot 1000 taillight (2xAAA's) charged independently from any Mains power.
The Minigorilla recharges from empty within 6 hours of cycling at an average speed of 17 KPH which is achievable on flat terrain. My average speed drops to around 12 KPH on undulating country and down as low as 8-9 KPH on steep hills so charging times are obviously extended in hilly country.
I leave home with all devices fully charged and keep everything topped up as I go.
The Ewerk is very simple to use with a very basic understanding of device current requirements. It is however CRUCIAL to remember to adjust the output levels if I change over from charging the Minigorilla at 9Volts to charging say the phone or GPS at 5Volts. I forgot once and rode for over an hour charging the Garmin at 9Volts. Luckily I don't seem to have done any damage to the Garmin battery but others have cooked batteries making the same mistake. Possibly the Garmin is "over voltage" protected, I don't know.
I don't own an Ipad but the Minigorilla is easily capable of charging a tablet 1-2 times.
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby Wingnut » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:24 am

So it charges all these devices except an iPad then? If thats so then it suites me fine as I don't use one...


The Revolution output is a standard USB charger (5V), and can provide up to 1 Amp. If your device can charge from a standard USB connector, it should be able to charge from the Revolution. This includes iPhones®, smartphones, GPS devices, USB battery packs, headlights, rechargeable speakers, etc...
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby Tim » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:57 am

Wingnut wrote:So it charges all these devices except an iPad then? If thats so then it suites me fine as I don't use one...


The Revolution output is a standard USB charger (5V), and can provide up to 1 Amp. If your device can charge from a standard USB connector, it should be able to charge from the Revolution. This includes iPhones®, smartphones, GPS devices, USB battery packs, headlights, rechargeable speakers, etc...


It suits your purposes perfectly well.
In my case I get a kick out of maximizing the use of the current I can generate from a simple hub dynamo.
It is all very simple with a rudimentary understanding of the physics.
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Re: Dyno Hub Device Recharging

Postby Wingnut » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:15 am

Yeah Tim I travelled west from the Mornington Peninsula to Kalbarri and back with only my iPhone and paper maps which was fine...I guess I'll keep this tradition in the future...
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