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Sandy Bay Cycleway
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Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby Davidkmendel » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:58 am
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby docca » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:43 pm
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby datanerd » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:46 pm
My main concern is that we'll be legally obliged to use it, and it'll slow me down on my lunchtime rides to Bonnet Hill. What's more, drivers will *expect* us to use it anyway, and it may therefore marginalise cyclists even more. I can't see it benefiting me much, the main issues I experience with drivers on Sandy Bay Road won't be fixed by a cycle lane - ie stupidity.
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby BenevolantDictatorD » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:03 pm
Will it slow us down - no. Will it decrease our likelihood of getting car doored - yes. Will it make us safer - yes. Will drivers get annoyed - no more than they do now. Do we want our facilities to be mainstream - yes. Do we want to have facilities like Melbourne - yes. At least we aren't going to have ot share footpaths with pedestrians or have a separated section that only makes it more dangerous for everyone.
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby fixedlegs2012 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:32 pm
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby Baldy » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:32 pm
Let me introduce John Freeman http://www.hobartcity.com.au/Council/Al ... hn_Freeman
Sandy Bay Walking and Cycling Project - Community Reference Group (Chairman)
This is a man who while debating/justifying his and certain residents opposition to the concept of having bike lanes on the roads at all. Said something along the lines of what you need to realise is the roads are paid for by motorists and not by them. With "them" being cyclists.[I can't find the article] When it was pointed out by all and sundry that's not the case at all....silence. No retraction, nothing.
The latest piece of wisdom from this self serving dinosaur is here http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 ... -news.html
"Alderman John Freeman said the cycle lane debate had been an unfortunate discussion. Ald Freeman said it was important to make any change incremental because it would affect local residents who used the busy road."
Also, this is a good example of the attitude several alderman have taken throughout the whole debate going back several years. "Alderman Jeff Briscoe said the $4 million Copenhagen solution would have cost $27,000 per cyclist."
So he has cherry picked a number from a bike count on Sandy bay rd, most likely one done by Bike Tas volunteers for a couple of hours in the morning on one day. Its this kind of divisive, manipulative and irresponsible twisting of the facts that has led to this outcome.
I'm not a Bike Tas member. I get my insurance via my racing licence so the $100 membership is a bit much for what advocacy work they do in my opinion. Not that I have any problem with the work they do, I just support it by direct action. I've been on every demonstration/ride to support the Sandy Bay walking and cycling project in the last few years and supported other promotional events for Bike Tas and cycling projects around Hobart. Just remember that Bike Tas is mostly volunteers that are up against experienced, well paid bureaurocrats with vested interests.
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby Baldy » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:11 pm

I took some photos on the last Bike Tas ride in support of the project.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 000&type=3
The facts are if the project is well designed as to offer the safest option possible, then build it and they WILL come. Those photos and countless other projects all over the world prove it.
Yet all we get is this from the Mayor "Is there a community appetite for a "Copenhagen" solution of separated cycleways? My response is a resounding "no"."
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 ... -news.html
The short sightedness of the old guard at council is very disappointing. No vision for the future other than their own legacy and retirement plans.
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby datanerd » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:07 pm


And the HCC website says:
On 11 June 2013, the Council resolved to proceed with on-road painted bike lanes for Sandy Bay Road, between Derwent Water Avenue and Long Point Road with a widened footpath to be provided for pedestrians and cyclists on the eastern side of Sandy Bay Road between Marieville Esplanade and Derwent Water Avenue.
The full report is http://www.hobartcity.com.au/files/11fa3f26-adea-4986-88c9-a1dd00a45a2d/Sandy_Bay_Cycling_and_Walking_Project_11_June_2013.pdf
If it is designated as a bike lane, then rule 247(1) of the Road Rules 2009 requires that cyclists must used marked bike lanes unless "impracticable to do so" (whatever that, or the copper thinks, it means). Whilst final designs are yet to be developed, the 2nd image above shows that the bike lanes will be 1.5m wide. There is no buffer zone between either the parking zone and the bike path, or the bike path and the traffic.
I can't see how legally forcing cyclists to ride right next to parked cars, rather than further away in a traffic lane (as now) will reduce the risk of dooring. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that in Melbourne, bike lanes don't do this and even one coronial report recommended moving bike lanes to the left side of parked cars. With a bike lane that's only 1.5m wide, and with no buffer zone, if someone does open their door, your only option will be to (a) stop if you can, or (b) swerve unexpectedly into the traffic.
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/doori ... 248fl.html
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/archive/new ... 6191821236
Even VicRoads seems to think it's a problem: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/counc ... 2jc7e.html
I agree with fixedlegs2012, if they're going to go down this path, they're better off fixing the crappy concrete surfaces between the Casino and Lower SB - a co-worker and his friend were both injured only recently (one seriously) because the front rider caught his wheel in the cracks. Curiously, the HCC appear to be engaging in roadworks at that particular spot now!
IMO, Freeman's (and others) strategy is to get this done to force cyclists off the traffic lanes. After that, they can argue that they've already spent money on the issue, that further improvements (Ald. Thomas' "incrementalism") would be just gold-plating for a minority, that "some people are never satisfied" etc etc - it's the least cost option for making the "problem" of cyclists go away. Once implemented it will be too costly to go for the Copenhagen solution because the design will be radically different from the one they've already spent money on, yadayada.
My 2c anyway.
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby docca » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:55 pm
Just measured how far my car door opens into traffic, 104cm. That would leave a gap of 46 cm to fit yourself between the door and a Metro bus. Given the fact that my bars are 44cm I reckon I may be in a bit of trouble, and I am a skinny little fella.
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby BenevolantDictatorD » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:01 pm
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby datanerd » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:00 pm
BenevolantDictatorD wrote: Under this process we don't - therefore surely less issue with car dooring.
I'm sorry, no disrespect, but I disagree. Currently you are legally entitled to ride in the middle, or even the far right of a traffic lane if it suits you. I stay in the left-hand lane obviously, and stay as far left as I can out of courtesy, but I keep at least 0.5-1m away from cars parked on the side of the road (eg the parked cars between King St and Queen St is a good example). Under the proposal you WILL BE LEGALLY REQUIRED (rule 247) to cycle within 1.5m at most of parked cars, and no further away, because it's a bike lane (ie it forces cyclists to be closer to the parked cars). If a car door takes up ~1m of that space, you are left with 0.5m to ride around the obstacle without swerving into traffic that - under current conditions - would be required to drive behind you.
Sorry - I can't see this as an improvement. Furthermore, I don't see this as reducing dooring when I can occupy any space I choose within a traffic lane presently. At the moment, I can legally ensure I am more than 0.5m away from any parked car simply by riding in the centre of a traffic lane, and most of the time I'm not holding up traffic either (30-40km/h).
Zero dooring risk.
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby docca » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:28 pm
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby BenevolantDictatorD » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:23 pm
If you currently ride 0.5-1m away from parked cars to keep safe and the new proposal gives you 1.5m hasn't the proposal increased your margin for error?
The report is suggesting a reduction of speed limit to 50kph - doesn't that increase your margin for error?
There are a net 22 less car spaces. If there are a thousand spaces (say) now and capacity for 978 in the future the risk of you being hit be a door is less - isn't it?
And - I don't have any problems with Sandy Bay Road traffic now.
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby rangersac » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:00 pm
It it better than what's there now? Debatable. As it is it's a pretty low risk bit of road. It will remove the parking at the pinch points around Red Chapel Av., which is really the only very slightly dodgy stretch.
Will it be perceived as being safer for cyclists, and hence may encourage more of the non cycling fraternity? Yes, if the experience at the end of the report with respect to Yarra council is anything to go by.
I used to live in the northern suburbs of Melbourne around the time that the first generation of bicycle infrastructure (i.e. white painted bike lanes) was installed, and the consequent rapid increase in cyclist numbers was impressive to see first hand. As someone who uses Sandy Bay road every day for commuting, I have no problems using the road in the current state, but if you want to encourage more people to start using it then I think it's at least a first step. And frankly if it gets a few more bikes on SB road that can only be a good thing longer term. I probably average seeing only 3-4 other bikes per direction (although more in summer) which is disappointing in my book, given how easy and time comparable with cars/ buses a commute anywhere from Baringa Rd inwards to the CBD is.
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby m@ » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:54 pm
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby Jair74 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:50 pm
I was driving along Sandy Bay road yesterday and while observing a cyclist riding in the bike lane and within 50 metres he had 2 people open their doors in front of him. He didn't have to swerve but may have had to slow down a little. I wasn't sure if the people hadn't noticed him or if they were just being inconsiderate. Hopefully people will get more accustomed to it; the last thing we want is cyclists weaving out unexpectedly out into the traffic.
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby Paul B » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:34 pm
BenevolantDictatorD wrote: I don't have any problems with Sandy Bay Road traffic now.
Me either.. moving forward to the new model is very troubling. Wonder what green crash rash looks like


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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby 2wheels_mond » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:35 pm
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby doggatas » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:55 am
Car doors are the biggest problem for sure. By painting the lines some cyclist will think they must stay within the lines, and as someone has stated if someone opens their door you will be hit if you choose to stay within the bike lane. I have been in a bunch where we were doored and it isn’t pretty.
I for one will NOT being staying within the bike lane along Sandy Bay Rd where cars are parked. I don’t like to perform erratic movements when on the road and if there is a car parked up the road I tend to move myself out of harm’s way gradually, at least 50m before the car. So perhaps I’ll be on the road more than in the bike lane.
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby Jair74 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:34 am
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby doggatas » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:08 am
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby rangersac » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:06 pm
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Re: Sandy Bay Cycleway
Postby datanerd » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:41 pm
Jair74 wrote:Yes I suspect most rider will sit right on the edge of the white line to keep as far away from doors as possible. What will be the situation on group rides? Is it illegal not to ride in the bike lane once provided?
Yes, unless "impracticable to do so" (eg car parked in it) - rule 247(1) of the Road Rules 2009:
247. Riding in a bicycle lane on a road
(1) The rider of a bicycle riding on a length of road with a bicycle lane designed for bicycles travelling in the same direction as the rider must ride in the bicycle lane unless it is impracticable to do so.
Penalty: Fine not exceeding 2 penalty units.
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